V-SFO......good post..I too would have joined VA last year had it not been for it being "uneconomical" at the time for me to do so.

I can only hope that it goes well, it would be nice to fly long haul out of my home country one day. Do good work.:ok:

Nice one V-SFO. I enjoy it as well. The bosses are doing their best, the guys on the crew are good fun, the aeroplane is great, crew rest excellent and too many chicken wings is never enough.

Saw the V Australia crew waiting for the bus in LAX recently and was bitterly disappointed with the eye candy. Half of the cabin crew were blokes and the girls weren't all that flash. Branson wouldn't be happy!

Also couldn't help but wonder what the V Aus skipper thinks seeing a QF captain who just did the same flight earning almost double...or the F/O earning less then QF S/Os...that pay scale is a f*cking joke

Out of interest what do you earn TL?

TL why don't you :mad: off those people are some ones son or daughter you :mad: ******.

30 years flying..........SIX years Medium to Long haul with SIX Airlines in THAT time?????????? or do you mean SIX Airlines in 30 years? Whichever way you mean it's still an aweful lot mate.


Having said all that I wish all at VOZ the best, great Aircraft etc but don't crap on about how EASY it is.....................cock.:=

Relax TL. The VA guys know it's only time until the QF salaries
get down to the same level. Are there any bloke CC in QF?

Very well said V-SFO.
 

:DI can only heartily endorse V-SFO's comments, however I fear that his or her eloquence is wasted upon some of the clowns that post on this forum.:ugh:
I have only been with the company for five months and I'm very happy and I am sure that we will thrive.
As a friend of mine in Dragon said the fact that you work with good people in a positive environment is worth tens of thousands of dollars, I also feel that living in ones home town or favoured little piece of Australasia, with generous staff travel concessions to get to and from is worth tens of thousands of dollars as well. There more to life than making moolah.
As for Capt's sleeping habits, there is plenty of depth at V, don't worry about that.
As for utility and ease, much easier swanning off to LA every ten days or so than min rest overnights and triple Canberras.
I look forward to many happy years enjoying one of the cream jobs in Australian Aviation.

web

Hey TL....

Let me get this straight......getting paid a lot more is a bad thing????? So unless a company is paying low cost wages then it is a joke is it?

Interesting concept.....

ernestkgann,

QF SO wages have been discussed a number of times on pprune so I don't really need to spell it out for you, but from what I've seen of the V Aus contract it's more than their Senior F/Os (or whatever they're called).

inandout,

Chill out, was just passing comment that despite public perception, not all Virgin girls are straight off the catwalk. After seen all their promo videos with Branson and girls in bikinis etc, I was a little disappointed that's all.

Tempo,

Maybe you need to re-read my post. I am saying the V Aus pay is a joke...

100% agree:ok:

However the tradeoff is lifestyle, something that your EBA doesn't allow for. If you got better lifestyle conditions I think that would be a good deal 9 days a month off doing long haul isn't really what I'd consider sustainable if you want to live beyond about 45

Ernie,
Looks like TL is a QF SO, as you well know a superior level of aviation expertise. That's like a cruise FO isn't it? I don't think I'd bother rising to his bait.

Neville.

I don't know how to put it any less offensively, but you really are a dill.

9 days off is the contracted agreement. However 3 1/2 trips a month accrues max hours. So, regardless of how many days off per month are contracted, you will be spending a lot more time at home than the allotted 9. Lets say the average LA trip is 5 days (conservative), that is 17 1/2 days working days per month, call it 18. This is the max per annum. Add on your 9 days off and there are 3-4 extra days when you are totally unavailable. Put it another way, working max hours you will have at least 13 days off per month. Not too bad I would suggest, far better than community average.

And to the cretin who suggested the VA Capt waiting for transport at LAX, would be envious of the QF guy who walks past, cos he earns a greater remuneration. Who gives a ****. There is more to life than dollars. I much prefer to work in a non toxic environment. One in which I am sure that the meals are safe from tampering and that I can go out and socialse with the entire crew whilst away on a layover. They are actually reasonable human beings. Pity the sky gods don't understand this, their life would be much more full if they would step down a peg or two.

Maui

I'd take the near on double pay, bring my own food to work ( no tampering ), try ( and fail ) to chat up some yank birds on my own in LA, thanks anyway :ok:
VB used to be great for socialising on overnights too, until one day everyone realises that living out of a suitcase sucks arse, and stays in their rooms :eek:

"Dill"

"Skygods"

"Cretin".

That's a bit nasty isn't it! Let's face it, Virgin Australia money is rubbish, one of the lowest paid 777 crews in the world. You can dress it up however you like, hanging out with hosties in slip ports etc but you're not fooling me or anyone else.

I happen to enjoy my work environment, and am happy to eat anything dished up from the galley!!!

I'm going back to wherever "Cretins" go...:ok:

Maui et al,

Without the personal attacks - VA have ONE port that is currently used by the current protagonists for
"THE Lifestyle" that will exist for ever more.

MISTAKE # 1 - All and sundry will very definitely find very quickly that our bean counters will be able to fill all except 9 days in a month with either flying or rest enroute.
Your calculations mean nought when the current schedule changes and they start doing North/South flying or the schedule changes from LA only.

MISTAKE # 2 - Believing that the 'Fantastic Times' that exist now will continue unabated for years to come.

Case in point - VB in the early days - we had great overnights with crew that were more than happy to enjoy the time off on the overnights.

Currently - We have min rest on most overnights with crews totally stuffed in the crew bus and all they want to do is crash in their own bed.

I'm not trying to rain on the VA parade but the "Fantastic" times described by some and the belief that this is the "one of the cream jobs in Australian Aviation" sends chills up my spine.

I wish them well but please open your eyes!

Cretins and Dills aside approx 800 VB pilots were offered opportunities with VA and the vast majority said no.

Every VB Captain was offered a 777 Command in VA and the total acceptance was less than 10!

Perhaps some of us have enough insight into the ways of Virgin that caused us to look further than the first 12 months of operation.

As for your statement regarding remuneration, time off and toxic environments I am more than happy to be guaranteed a minimum of 11 in 28 with an average of 15 in 28 - earn THIS year over $60,000 more than my 777 compatriots and live in Brisbane and have a salary that is guaranteed to increase over the life of the EBA.

For all who join VA - enjoy the opportunity and I hope that someday it will offer the rest of us in VB an appropriate advancement in our careers but for heaven's sake get a reality check.


I don't know how to put it any less offensively!

Finally someone with sense..................:ok:

Ad Astra.

Mistake #1. I don't think terribly many are saying it is the "cream job", but more, are pointing out that it's not real bad.

Mistake# 2. The "Sky Gods" bit was aimed at the other brand, not VB.

Mistake # 3. Selective memory. Do you recall all those things that were said about VB and it's "bottom feeding" staff, when it was first started. Wrong wasn't it.

Mistake # 4. Failing to account for different circumstances. The VB's offered the positions had the luxury of a secure position and future at the time they made their decisions. A lot of others did not enjoy that luxury.

Each of those who has taken the job has made a personal decision, that what was offered, in some way was a better deal than than the prevailling or expected (personal) conditions that existed at the time of that decision.
That A is better than B, is subjective and irrelevant. That the future looks better than the past, is relevant.

I am glad for you that you had a choice. I am glad that you have exercised that choice in the way that you think is appropriate to your circumstances.

Please do not assume that what is good for you is necessarily right, or good for all.

That is the reality.

Maui

Maui

At no stage have I criticised the decision of others to take whatever job they choose to. In fact I think you will find me defending a young guy several months ago when he was seeking interview information and the critics pounced on him for even considering VA. Do the search.

And I will keep on saying that I hope the Airline matures into a career that is sought after.

But its the comments of a few of the "defenders of the faith" that leaves very little confidence that they will make any effort to improve their own conditions nor do they realise that they should be on better conditions

If you are happy with a contractual maximum of 9 days off a month, remuneration that increases when the company 'chooses' to 'review' it and 1000 hours per year then I don't see a problem.

The comment of "one of the cream jobs in Australian Aviation" was not mine but one of the 'faithfuls' earlier in this thread.

It is this attitude that you will be fighting against when you find your roster is full to the brim with paxing sectors, reserve days down route, training days, and a bucket load more flying in all directions of the compass. Will this young man still have a smile on his face?

When the schedule changes and a reduced overnight in LA is introduced will the boys 'scooting' around the LA freeways still be having a 'fantastic' time in their 'fantastic' job.

When the company introduces Asian destinations or domestic sectors which could make better use of both aircraft and crew and the 13 days off a month reverts to the companies contracted 9, will the excitement and wonderful lifestyle still be there?

You can guarantee some things.
1000 hours per year
9 days off per month
Your salary.

Any better than that and I will guarantee that there is one very pizzed off VA accountant working his very best to use you to the maximum that is allowable under your contract.

They did not put 9 days in the contract and wake up the next morning and say - these pilots are great guys we will give them half the month off instead!

You will have to fight for anything better!

The biggest problem that you (collectively) have in improving your T&C's is the attitude from the "Whew! - I made it" guys.

I see that attitude being displayed in some of the previous posts.

Next biggest problem will be the pizzed of VA accountant!

Enjoy the job and good luck.

Ad-Astra.

I don't think you have said anything with regard to T&C's that is unknown to the guys who have taken the step. However that step was taken on the basis that, given a sucessful operation, things can and will be improved. I believe the same philosophy was adopted by those who started when VB was not much more than a concept. If in the event of our success, T&C's do not meet expectations, the company will likely be faced with an increased attrition rate that will cost dollars and force the powers that be, to reassess the formula. In the event that we fail the T&C's will be irrelevant, but at least all those concerned can walk away knowing that they have helped in the battle for sucess rather than crawling away having that knawing feeling that somehow we have contributed to the demise, by expecting too much too soon.

It seems to me that you have little knowledge of the way long haul ops work. To a large degree the beancounters are constrained by the nature of the operation and the limitations of the regulations. Paxing long haul crews around the network is totally wasteful. Unless you have a weekly service or close spaced destinations, (neither are planned or envisaged),it is far better to keep the crews in place than it is to pax them across the network. Those very beancounters you talk of, are smart enough to recognise that paxing is indicative of a failed scheduling system, and will stand on it as soon as it rears it's head, as it cost heaps.

We will start doing north south flying. Explain to me how that changes the dynamics of the roster. From a crew scheduling point of view 10 to 12 hours flights separated by 24 to 50 hours of rest is the same whether it is north south or east west, only its a lot easier on the body given the lack of time zone changes.

The most likely change to our working lives is likely to be a reduction in outport rest time as frequencies increase. The net effect of this is to increase the unavailable time at home.

Just simple maths should bring home to you the contrast between short and long haul. 1000 hours at an average of 10 hours/day gives 100 days of operation, 14 hours will reduce that to 71. On the other hand 1000 hours at 6 per day gives 166 days of ops. Given the nature of the respective operations it is far easier to achieve the max in the long haul.
Now looking at those 166 days in short haul, most will be starting or finishing at the ends of the day. Lets say 84 early starts and 84 late finishes, each of which, to a degree screws up the day before or the day after. On the same basis the longhauler could have 35 to 50 each of earlys and lates, but the reality is that departures are generally at more civilised hours. At the moment all our starts are late and our finishes early, and given the inflight rest arrangements the duty is not arduous.

Having worked up to 105 hours med/long and also having done 78 sectors/75 hours short I can assure you that the longhaul is a whole lot easier on the body.

I hope we are still around when you work out that there is more to this life than chasing the big bucks. In the meantime enjoy your extra 60k.

Maui

Phew!

The last several posts have been robust, intelligent, and mostly free from emotion. IMHO, well thought out and delivered by opposing sides with their respective opinions.

For what it's worth guys, keep up the good work.

Maui. I sincerely hope it works out. I also hope that if VA are around for the "long haul", some pressure can be brought to bear with regard to T&C's. You have correctly identified that any change in this regard will depend on the opportunities elsewhere down the track. History has shown that without such leverage and a unified pilot group, these changes will simply not happen.

Good luck, and trust 'em (management) as far as you can throw 'em!

My criticism is not whether someone took a particular job, accepted whatever terms and conditions or chooses to fly short haul or long haul.

It is simply that one port and one route is being portrayed by some as what will be the norm for a career in VA.

Your 1000 hours in 100 days fails to acknowledge the down route layover time - 2 days flying but 4/5 days away does not equal 100 days of 'operation'

My 900 hours in 150 days can be achieved by being home every night should I so wish.

North/South flying may well involve less flying per day, min rest overnights and more days at work.

Math 101

It is not my intent to match your height in this pissing competition but just to keep a small amount of reality in the what appears to be some unrealistic expectations in VA.

I genuinely hope that an increased attrition rate is not necessary to improve the T&C's in VA but I think I know this company reasonably well and it certainly took empty crew seats and idle aeroplanes to get where we (VB pilots) are today.

Once again good luck.

I guess I haven't been clear, I am only posting about my personal circumstance and my personal opinion.

No, boring as hell!!! But I only do it 2 - 3 times a month, not 18 times a month, and I sleep half the time!! I always knew it would be boring, but at the other end it's a blast and the people I work with are young, motivated, interesting, friendly and simply fun to be around.

I am lucky. I have experienced a lot in aviation. I have also put myself in a position where I don't have to worry too much about the almighty dollar. I can simply love the job and when I don't, I can move on.

As for the VB guys who turned down the job, I would have also. Why move from a decent company on decent pay to a decent company on worse pay. But a lot of us moved from "Crappy" companys on "crappy" pay to a "decent" company on "crappy pay". I will tell you though, that all VB pilots that choose to come to VA, have a friend in me. It is your right to assume your rightful postion at VA. It may delay my ascent to the left seat, but it is your right and I will not begrudge you of that right. You WILL be welcome and you WILL enjoy the flying.

A lot point to how ****ty the job is going to get when we start going "north/south" or domestic flying. But to me, that means expansion and an opportunity to move to the left seat. Isn't that what we all want?

9 days off??? Not likely. With 3 trips every 28 days that are really 4 day trips (less than 96 hours), you are going to have 16 days off. Anymore than that and you will exceed 1000 hours per year. Will it get worse??? Most likely, but until then I am going to enjoy it. Why anticipate the downfall without enjoying the current great job. Again, if it starts to suck I will simply move on.

There are no longer "careers" in aviation. You go with what suits you best at the moment and when it doesn't "suit you best" you move on.

Anyway, if you don't enjoy your job and feel a need to bitch about it, then do something about it. Although we find ourselves in a "financial crisis", there are always opportunities and those that can do it will prosper.

"Luck is opportunity meeting preparation"......

I have been extremely lucky:O

Guys your assumption is that all you will do is Australia to the West Coast. What happens when you start doing Tasmans, Syd-Mel or Perths or start going to Asia? I think then 9 days off a month might start looking a bit skinny. I am starting to suspect that some of you V OZ guys are a little naive. With a work contract so good for the company, with an awesome aircraft, you might start find they begin using V for some of the Pac Blue/VB international flying.

Neville

Anything is possible in this world, but is it probable.

Must be a bit depressing always looking for the negative!

Maui

Is any job perfect?

If, in future, V Australia expands into the Asian and/or domestic market, then this will possibly coincide with an upturn in the world's economy.

If the current workforce is unhappy they will move on as other jobs reappear, perhaps taking their experience towards future 787 operators with the easy conversion etc.

If they are happy they will stay.

Sounds like every other job in the world.

Most of the crew I have met are quite happy living back on the beach with their '9 days off'. So far.......

Back to the topic.....

I was told from crew the load was about 66% out of BNE on a flight last week (dont know how many Y class etc).

Not sure of the return leg.

Flaps.

From June VA will be operating SYD-MEL, crew stay on a/c for several hours then operate MEL-SYD. No allowances as meal provided onboard.

2-3 times a month at what 4 or 5 days a shot?

As for 18 times a month I just did 11 days in a month, 20 days off, for maximum hours and 3 nights away from home, and I have done the longhaul stuff and I say no thanks!

All for their own when they are new! ^^

So much for the 3 trips a month boys...

I'm not negative, I've just been around a bit and seen it all before. You should NEVER write things in an EBA then expect them not to happen.

Mr Neville , Just for your info VA does not have EBA, Individual agreements maybe.

And you will probably find your theory on VA replacing VB/PB on short domestic routes a flawed conclusion.

As for Melbourne its rumoured to be on the back burner at the moment with no start date this year anyway.

And no not all of VA pilots are naive as your so humbly propose.

Yes, the SYD-MEL-SYD will probably throw a spanner in the works for a while, but the ultimate aim is for a MEL-LAX, which will return things to the status quo for a period, until the next change.

It amuses me how incredible short sighted some are, whilst others choose not to view the past.

I'm sure if we look back into the history books we will find that even the mighty Qantas had crap conditions at one stage, and the current, generous conditions were most likely hard fought over many years, taking advantage of periods where pilots had the upper hand and locking things in via unions etc so that they could weather the storm when things were not so good.

So it has been for VB and probably for the bulk of the free world carriers.

The hope is that VA will go the same road over time. First and foremost the airline has to be self sustaining. A key to that is low and predictable salaries in the first few years. If, and only if, the airline establishes itself, will the opportunity to improve conditions present itself.

Presumably, if VA survives, in a few years time it will be operating in a fairly competitive pilot market as carriers struggle to cope with a resurgent world economy. That will be the opportunity for VA/VB pilots to exert some pressure for an improved contract/EBA, and like every other good employee package in the aviation industry, it won't come easy. It will be a long and tiring struggle, but if the market dictates it, it will happen, as long as the VB/VA pilot group has the stomach for the fight.

If the airlines goes under, the issue has gone away. If the pilots don't have the balls for the fight, then the problem has gone away for the management. If the world economy doesn't recover for 10 years, there probably won't be a shortage of experienced drivers. There are a lot of variables and no one knows the answers.

One thing is for sure though, if nobody had taken the jobs, VA would not exist. If VA didn't exist then there would be no chance of a better package down the road. Of course some will argue that if nobody took the jobs, VA would have had to put the salaries up. That may be true, but it may have been the case that they would not have taken the risk if the salary base was too high. Who knows.

We are where we are. At the moment everyone is positive and working hard to get the company profitable, but everyone also has one eye on the future, with the expectations of better conditions, and the other eye on the employment market. If one becomes more attractive than the other, then that is where most people will focus their attention.

Another thing that is also guaranteed is that the fabulous deal that the QF guys work under is never going to be seen again. So there is no point comparing apples with oranges, or wishing for something that is never going to happen. For those that are senior enough at Qantas to feel secure, then good luck to you. For those who are looking down the barrel at a future with J*, the VA and VB guys will be working with you to map out the future of airline pilot conditions in Australia for the foreseeable future.

That is my view of the reality of OZ aviation in the short term. But i have been wrong before.

V

"What happens when you start doing Tasmans, Syd-Mel or Perths or start going to Asia?"

Poor old Voz guys. Either your airline is doomed to fail in which case tough titties OR you are doomed to have poor rosters as a result of expansion of the airline in which case . . .. tough titties.

I seem to remember when Virgin Blue started up and there was some sort of gentleman's agreement that when things pick up, the pilot's salary would match those of Qantas and Ansett.

In about 16 months time if VA are still around (really hope they are), their management will need to Swiftly improve things or suffer dramatically.

They got away for now with paying crap salaries to people who were for whatever reason obliged to work for those salaries. But the novelty is wearing thin already and by the time the global economies ramp up again, these sought-after commodities (rated and current pilots) will be very valuable on the open market. VA will have to up their salaries dramatically or suspend certain operations. Pity the management didn't learn this vital lesson from what was eventuating at V Blue in 2008.

Also a pity that they have pre-set an inevitable and already appearing disgruntled work environment when by paying a bit better they would both ensure a happier workforce now and keep pilots in the future.

Jeezuz !! the most poignant and ( sadly ) true thing anyone has ever said on PPRUNE, IMHO.

No, I think with VA and J* NZ and Tiger vs current cost of living this is the worst pay and conditions have ever been.

It will take a monumental shortage and economy turnaround to get past shiny jet syndrome.

That's exactly it. Some peope think pilots are warm and fuzzy and all proud of their company. Fiercly competetive blue against red team. "We are the best". Those times have gone and today's pilot will drop his/her company at the drop of a hat given the right opportunity.

I hope it works out for the VA guys and gals.

I am doing two trips in 28 days so getting 20/21 days off each every 28 days:day of arrival, day of dept, open, standby included.

Any idea how much freight V Oz are taking each trip??? Could be making up some of short fall in pax revenue??

After reading the posts in this topic I am still amazed and some what disgusted by the slagging match over who get's paid the most or the better conditions someone has. Forget it. Some of you have no problem slagging off Cabin Crew when we have an issue but look at yourselves, behaving like children over who has the better crew meal or better pay and conditions. All of you are bloody lucky to be flying out of Australia, your home, and not out of some dusty desert or where ever, away from your family and I hope you all continue to do so. For f*&%$ sake be civil and support each other. I read PPRune to get info and comments about what's going on in the industry, not to read bitch sessions between pilots who think someone working for the opposition is inferior. I go to work and sometimes fly with 3 or 4 different "terms of employment" crew but we are adult and have a job to do and we do it well together without discrimination or bias. Regardless of V Aus paying less for the same job you are in, so what, be thankful for what "you" have because if it was you trying to join a new airline out of some unforseen circumstance I'm sure you would take it. Why not try and support each other as a Pilot group instead of the nasty "them and us" situation. It really makes for boring reading.

AOA: The question was about how boring it would be. The 4 days at a shot are not boring. Being an American Australian, I cherish the time back in SoCal. So the flights may be "boring" but I only do 4 sectors every 28 day. I love being away for the 4 day trip.


Mr Hat: Shiny jet syndrom??? Really??? I have flown lots of shiny jets. It's all about the job, not the shiny jet. All aircraft look exactly the same from the pointy end, from an F/A-18 to an old B-737 to an Airbus 330. They all look the same....

And the company will drop you even quicker. Loyalty is no longer an issue for any company...they don't care one bit about you....

Really Neville??? I belive that I have been around the block more than most. Not naive, but smart enough to at least enjoy the good ride while it lasts. I go to work with a smile on my face and come back with a bigger one. If you can't enjoy it the way it is now, how will you ever???? I feel sorry for someone who can't enjoy the good times, because you will really find it hard to enjoy the "bad times"...

Listen gentlemen, someone made a comment about the "honeymoon period". Well I know from experience that if you can't enjoy the honeymoon, you aren't going to enjoy the marriage!!! Life is grand at V right now and with the right mix of people it may remain that way. But I am a realist and know that it will probably go south eventually. But I am going to enjoy the current ride. Good people, good routes, nice layover, great place to live, great aircraft....can it get any better. Check your airline and ask yourself if you can say the same. Not many do right now.

I for one am simply going to enjoy it while it lasts:O:O:O:O