Layoffs at REX- Cadets to go first?!
 

Have just heard from a reliable source that the Rex Chairman himself (LKH) has just announced that staff will be retrenched, especially amongst flight crew?!

This due to the financial crisis and corresponding reduced schedules.

Hopefully this isn't the case, as the cadets especially, who have just outlayed large sums of money and effort may now find themselves out of work?!

:ugh:

It's always a "reliable source" isn't it
 

When this whole 'economic crisis' began, there were all sorts of experts/boffins predicting all sorts of financial atrocities.

However, despite their wide and varied predictions, they do seem to agree on a few points.

1. The Oz economy and global economy is expected to hit the bottom of the tub sometime in the next 6 months.

2. The recovery is expected to be quite rapid, with most agreeing that a significant improvement will begin sometime during the 2nd half of this year.

Despite the well illustrated 'questionable' intelligence of some airline management, I fully expect that they are reading the same information as I am.
As a result, I think that many airlines throughout the country are being quite reluctant to layoff pilots, as all indications are showing that the next shortage will begin sometime during this year.
The most recent shortage really deomstarted to airlines how true the saying is "It takes one month for a pilot to resign, but 4 months to replace him".

I think that your "reliable source" might be jumping the gun a tad there.


Eternity.

Why then are they still conducting interviews? I know that the left hand doesn't always talk to the right hand in management, but i doubt they would get it THIS wrong.

For your first post A.a.f., it's certainly a beaut'!

I have been predicting this situation for some time. When you consider that the pilot numbers at REX are now some 10% in excess of what they were 2 years ago (prior the massive attrition, and prior to the reduced schedule), what you are saying is not as far fetched as it may sound. The problem is, the crisis regarding the severe shortage of Captains has in no way been adressed. Sound familiar? I recently flew with an F/O who showed me 8 days of straight reserve on his roster!!! What we have now is a bottom heavy seniority list, the responsibilty of which lies squarely at the feet of REX management.

I must however agree with eternity. Probably jumping the gun a little, even when dealing with a pathalogically reactive mangement.

Although I hear what you are saying Chadzat, don't underestimate the capacity of these guys to get it wrong either.

Interesting times for all concerned!

Jumping the gun a little?

Please, would someone then confirm or deny the following comments.....

:confused:

Eternity
 

I think it is optimistic in the extreme to belive that things will improve within a year, in fact, I think it may take an eternity. We aint seen nuthin' yet:sad::sad:

I think they should sit for a bit and enjoy their time with 10% more crew than required. Another year and the FO's will be OK. Or, perhaps they have intended to over recruit with the intention of retrenching as a message to those fighting the EBA.

This is fine of course so long as the majors don't start recruiting again.

SN

so I'm assuming that the cadets who get 'retrenched' will also get their money back? :confused:

A.a.f.

The quotes you posted, are they from LKH? If they are, then what we have been thinking may be coming to pass. My remark about "Jumping the gun" was not meant to offend. I guess untill it's made public, it's just another rumour, but even I didn't think they would do it so soon!

As for the Cadets getting their money back, I suppose it all depends on the "contract". I'd be surprised however if they weren't at least billed for the training they have recieved to date.

A hard lesson, and another nail in the coffin of the profession.

aaf....

it is all very well to wrap quote tags around a bunch of words. It is another thing entirely to say where the quotes came from!

Can you please tell us where these immortal(immoral?) words are written? , or if you are quoting someone on here.... who, and what post!

Gee I hope this is just only a rumor, it will be a sad day if it does indeed go ahead (layoffs). I think the question here (rather than what's being asked) is more do the statements made match a question? As in is REX in that level of poo to do such a thing at the moment given the current training of cadets? To some yes, to others maybe not. Time will tell & if it does come to light these comments then the industry is becoming very rocky indeed. Do we need to 'fall down' before we can stand tall again?



Wmk2

Coments from LKH in company Friday Files. Also makes mention of a freight downturn so lay offs could be Pel Air as well. Qantas cadets have also been knocking at the door looking for jobs. Maybe a bit of scare tactics as there is also reference to the EBA. In a seperate article in the paper there is a write up on cancelled services due to no crew. Time will tell.

Surely they wouldn't let the Pel Air guys go, especially the ones who have just signed up for the Saab?

Should've checked the Friday files first.

Ominous that LKH says "We will need to retrench staff, especially amongst flight crew...", not we may have to retrench (my bolding). Seems fairly clear to me! I agree however with aerocom about the industrial tactic. seems as though this sword may have more than one edge.

For those who may be given the chop, your seniority will be preserved. Last on first off, so try to take some comfort in that.

As for the Cadets, your relative seniority will determine just where you stand. For those in training and have yet to recieve a seniority number, it may be prudent to start looking at other options. It's anyone's guess what the delay will be. :(

As far as Pel-Air is concerned, my understanding is different company within the group, different EBA, different seniority list (if that applies). If seniority does apply, it won't matter what equipment you are on. Last on, First off. I've seen it in action before, and mangement will not hesitate to liquidate your services if you are deemed surplus to requirements!

So, Krusty,

do you reckon that the Quid Pro Quo will be that IF the pilot body capitulates on the EBA, and accepts the same sh!tty deal as last time, then layoffs MAY be avoided?

If they are using this as a bargaining tool, then this is a new low... even for them!

IF however, it is genuine, and times are really tough, then i feel sorry for any of those who are on the chopping block.

Gut feeling is that it is the former!

Very interesting. For the last eighteen months or so LKH has been bleating on about a pilot shortage. To suddenly threaten layoffs - and specifically mention flight crew as a target - is most intriguing.

To then go on and talk about EBA committees in the last paragraph seals it in my eyes. What's the only employee group with a yet-to-be-finalised EBA? It's nothing more than a declaration of war on the pilots.

Until there is sufficient reserve coverage to deal with the daily disruptions that are a part of life in any airline, there are not enough crew. So they go from not enough pilots to suddenly having too many? Just wait until the schedule ramps back up to normal levels over the next month or so.


:ugh:

I reckon it's probably a bit of both apache. Times are unusual. Pax numbers and revenues are down (although not unexpected for this time of year). Total company debt is a whopping $1mil! Hardly cause for concern there. The agenda has always been to keep a lid on T&C's, even in good times. It's a well known fact that REX have reacted poorly to the pilot shortage. We now have a surplus of pilots, but are still cancelling services due to a lack of crew! It ain't rocket science, but they have already sounded load and clear their opposition to any form of retention. Ergo, too many F/O's, not enough Captains.

So I think the little fella from Singapore may just be on the level when he says people will go. Their excuse of course is always due to circumstances outside their control. The fact that they have over-recruited the wrong pilots won't even rate a mention. If by chance the elimination of a few will quell the dissent amongst the rest, then all the better! sort of like what the French generals did in WW1!

A search of recent announcements to the ASX (several from Rex, but on other matters), gives no hint of this.

If true (retrenchments), might be in breach of disclosre rules...............

So far it's only in the Company newsletter (read propaganda mag') chimbu.

Chr!st only knows what they're up to? :suspect:

hey 'krusty' despite all the goings on at REX I still hear around the traps that REX are getting pilot applications all the time with interviews?
I guess they have a high failure rate of those applicants as in don't get past the first interview.
The older ones that I chat too frm the KD days say they thank their lucky stars they got out (for whatever reason) when they did.
Rex just seems to project tyranny (is that correct spelling police?) towards their pilots, that must be wearing a lot down there.
I hope the REX pilots can stand their round for a while yet.

Wmk2

Like most things Wal', there's good and bad, rumour, but often an element of truth, and things sometimes being blown out of proportion.

Are REX pilots being paid up to 20% below industry standard? Absolutely!

Are the pilots p!ssed off about that? You betcha!

Is it rule by fear? probably a little tougher to answer, but I'll try. Essentially the Check and training has remained unchanged, but the knife at checks is definitely a lot sharper. In addition there are now new elements (Check focus items) that are assesed. If the pilot(s) under check fail to answer these proficiently then they fail! REX are reacting to a nervous regulator in this regard. Are REX pilots being given the additional training required to meet this new level of scrutiny. Definitely not! This being a function of a chronic lack of resources. Needless to say, many now go into these checks with a higher level of trepidation than in the past. Quite often this is enough to push some over the edge. Knowledge, (and in this case practice) does dispell fear. The opposite may go some way to explaining the elevated failure rate we are now seeing?

As far as continueing to interview after the Chairman has stated publicly that jobs will go? That doesn't surprise me one little bit. Some 15 years ago Impulse airlines interviewed approx 200 pilots Australia wide for some 20 positions, and do you know why? Because they could! The fact that a large proportion of those candidates were well qualified and had spent considerable time and money to attend, was of no concern for those characters, and why should REX be any different. Just look at the goings on across the road at QFLink!

They still have not removed the open jobs on the rex site for both pilots for rex and pel-air.

Gee, as if we didn't see this coming from the almighty LKH. He will say and do anything to avoid giving flightcrew the pay rise and conditions they deserve...is it a coincidence that the EBA is still up in the air? It's clear he can't sack ground or ops staff as he barely employes enough staff to fill the positions required to run the airline on the ground as it is.

I've bought up this point in the past...but as it's valid I'll say it again. Does LKH know how much $$$ is being flushed down the dunny (if your reading this LKH, thats Aussie for toilet) by the head of (I use this next word very losely) training and checking?? One very insecure and disturbed ego is responsible for costing the company hundreds of thousands of $$ per year.

I'd love to know how much rex has forked out over the past couple of years in:
training costs related with replacing experienced captains that until he got in control were going to stay at rex for life,
training costs related with "re-training" pilots for failing checks because they went 4kg out of tolerance with the fuel embalance when OEI, and similar pathetic discrepencies,
costs related with replacing perfectly competent check and trainers with "captain taking over's" that are more nervous in the left hand seat of the Saab than a FA flying with Capt No-experience and FO Cadet:eek: when there are a couple of clouds in the sky.

And while im at it, Mr head of check and training...the whole company knows that after you put in a pathetic effort in the sim, the spineless checker gave you your own assesment form to fill in...hahahahaha no suprise that you passed yourself...nice way to get respect from the troops.

LKH...if you can't afford to run an airline, then don't. Sell up and do something else. Rex flightcrew deserve a healthy pay rise and impoved conditions as you have built up a little fortune on the backs of these hard working guys and girls. maybe instead of paying cash for your planes, you should start parting with some cash for your flightcrew.

c'mon guys please...........

this is nothing more than scare tactics from that little pice of ****e from singers....

there will be no sackings, just a very sub-standard eba voted up by scared fo's.....

CH, NH, JD and co hang your heads in shame......you have all allowed this to happen........

fark i'm glad i left that 2 bit op when i did!!

Gidday Mudflat. Don't hold back mate, say what you really think. All jokes aside though, the frustration is palatable.

I don't know Muff'? My money is on at least 10, mabye 20! I've seen it before. The arrogant belief that "we will always get pilots" is alive and well in the hallowed halls at REX. It's this pervading mindset that has seen the massive disruption to a once proud organisation.

If retrenchments don't happen, nobody will be happier than me (you see I've been there myself, several times!!), and I will gladly admit my error. However, I reckon they will go ahead, if for nothing else than as a warning to the others! :(

Let me get this right...

The long term pilots at Rex want more money.
So to prevent paying it, they are threatening job cuts.
These job cuts will come from the bottom of the seniority pile, which is all their cadets and South Effrican imports anyway.
The ones who actually have a spine will not be the ones losing their jobs.

Buy 6 glass cockpit aircraft .... very expensive.
Start a flying academy .... very expensive.
Give scholarships and partial scholarships to students .... very expensive.
Pay for South Effrican imports to move to Australia .... very expensive.
Then retrench them all anyway because you've got too many!!!!!

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CHEAPER TO JUST PAY A BIT MORE TO THE PILOTS YOU ALREADY HAD YOU :mad: IDIOT.

What an unbelievable waste of time, effort and money for the sake of one rich man's pride. He will never, ever be big enough to admit he was wrong.

If it's not pilot shortage, it's pilot excess. Or fuel prices. Or world economic crisis. Or Aussie dollar falling so engine maintenance costs "spiralling". There will always been an excuse so they can paint a dark scary picture. Retrenchments is just another fear tool that the majority are not buying.

SHOW US THE MONEY. :D

It is has definitely got to be a scare tactic........... and for all you relatively new F/O's on the list or cadets..... don't be suckered into the fear tactics! We have fought for way too long to have you all cave in and vote for a crappy EBA. (when it comes along again).

This is exactly what LKH wants........ lets not give it to the bastard!
:} :=

F:mad:k it... Does anyone really care anymore? We have been being painted a ****ty picture for months now even when things were going well. We have been lied to after accepting the last eba. Management give directions to screw us over as much as possible, and they can’t even cough up a wage comparable with CPI. So why give a flying F:mad:k about them, the company, or anything. Honestly, 150%, I'll give you my 5% and 5 cents worth! After all thats all you think i'm worth.

Scare Tactics
 

Does he (LKH) seriously expect people to buy into his garbage??? :confused:

To firstly clear the matter of retrenchments if it ever came to that I believe it would be last on first off situation. I think we will see something similiar with Pelair as we did with AirLink. The metro runs will be scaled back (aircraft sold) and freight runs profitable for a much smaller Pelair Saab fleet will continue. This will be where retrenchments, if any, occur.

With the Australian aviation industry forecast (take it as you may) set to pick up again over the next 6 to 12 month period LKH would be mad to retrench Rex Saab tech crew. It has been mentioned here of the full ranks, some 262 pilots. Looking closely at this list with the current Captain shortage, particularly in Sydney, there are really only enough command eligible F/Os to see out the next 12 to 18 months. This of course can be increased by reducing the Pelair operation and bringing it closer to the Rex one.

With the schedule now resuming to its normal capacity we should start to hear more and more from crewing how hard they have to work to crew uncrewed sectors on a day to day basis.

Off Topic: Pilot's EBA Negotiations

I believe the 9x3x3 suggested split of 15% over 3 years is half way there in the first year. It needs to be more in line with the initial claim made; ie the $82 - 100K for command base salary.

I would like to see a claim made of at least 17% x 2.5% x 2.5% with the following increases linked to CPI. ie 2.5% or CPI whichever is greater. It is a sceaming hole (IMHO) in our EBA that it is not linked to CPI. With the ridiculous extension payments the company has put on the table which fall way short and the casual day payments not much better than they are now I believe we must seek this base increase.

You need to understand the arrogant culture of the man we are dealing with, he will do anything to save face as we have and are seeing. I for one will not be bullied, tricked and scared into voting for a lesser EBA than deserved. Perhaps if LKH can not stand the heat in this Australian kitchen then he should leave!

I'm hearing people saying that it may not be Rex. It could be Pel-Air and the decreasing amount of freight meaning getting rid of some metro drivers? :uhoh:

"...last on, first off"
 

.......don't count on your seniority kids, it would be cheaper to drop 25 FO's (not Cadets, he has invested in these) and 25 captains (no downtraining costs). Individual performance may be considered -remember the "company requirements" clause?:\

maybe the cadets are not coming to a suitable standard and the company will cut their loses instead of spending massive amounts of money training to get these guys to a safe level...

remember, ask NH, the saab is as close to the space shuttle as you can get!!

Gidday strut'.

I Hear what you are saying. In fact the original EBA as presented to the pilot group back in 02' had all references to seniority removed!

The Hazelton pilot group identified this and other lttle "nasties" and by voting no, forced a more equitable change. One of which was the reinstatement of seniority. The "needs of the company" clause was inserted by management as a sort of "saftey" net by which they could do pretty much what they want if necessary. Or so they thought.

The problem is, this ability to "do as we please" so to speak has been effectively removed due to precedent. Now nothing would surprise me, but it would be a foolish management indeed if they attempted to try that one on, just to save a few bucks. To attempt to justify the retrenchment of a senior pilot over a more junior one, because the junior pilot is paid less, would certainly raise a few eyebrows in the IRC to say the least. Hell, the payout of the senior Pilot's entitlements alone would destroy any such arguement in that area. As well as that, the retrenched pilot retains his/her seniority position for at least 2 years.

More grief than it would be worth!

Read your EBA more carefully strut. They need union approval to retrench outside of seniority. The AFAP would never allow it.

That would have to be what's called a leap of faith wouldn't it sockedunnecessarily:ok:

Krusty,

Can you please explain what it means when you say a retrenched pilot will retain their seniority for 2 years? If they are no longer with the company how can this be important?

Thanks.

pjam, under past industrial law, retrenched pilots had first refusal on positions with the employer, for periods of up to 3 years, or until they knock back an offer.

Redundancy
 

Read your EBA gent's....5 years.

38.5 Re-employment (if you are really that keen!!!!)
38.5.1 A pilot whose service is terminated due to redundancy or who terminates service whilst under notice of termination due to redundancy in order to take up alternative duties as a pilot will maintain their right for re-employment with the Employer for five (5) years or until offered re-employment, which is subsequently rejected by the pilot, whichever occurs first....

38.5.2 A pilot shall retain their relative position in the seniority list for the purposes of access to re-employment under clause 38.5.1



On another note.....

It is indeed a shame that the global economy is in turmoil and redundancies are being seen world wide across all industries but I see it as an even bigger shame if we do not act as a pilot body to increase our base salary. The sacrifices made by staff across the board since the merging of the two companies to build a strong viable airline are over due to be recognised by the company.

What do you think will be LKH's story 3 years down the track from now at the next EBA if we decide to defer any decent claim till then....crying poor yet again with different reasons. Seen it before, seeing it now and of course we'll see it again!

I still believe now is still the time to act on our low base. We do however need to be careful in our claims to limit these threatened redundancies. We all know a certain Singaporean will cut his nose off to spite his face; but won't we need the crew to move back into QLD!!!! Thoughts?

Interesting links RE: Maca*r demise....
ABC
ASIC

Sorry C/A my bad.

It is 5 years, hadn't had my morning cofee!

how do you really feel about it?