Vaus Wants To Delay Orders
 

from the Australian....



VIRGIN Blue is asking Boeing to delay delivery of some of its 777s because of a strike by Boeing machinists.

The industrial action has meant the launch of Virgin's V Australia has been pushed into the traditionally quiet post-holiday period.

The airline is due to get two of Boeing's aircraft shortly and might beat its revised launch date for its international offshoot of February 28.

Virgin Blue had originally planned to launch in mid-December to take advantage of the Christmas peak, but was forced to push the date back when a machinists strike at Boeing meant it was unable to get its planes in time.

The delay is understood to have cost the airline about $3million, as it was forced to rebook passengers on alternative flights and keep staff employed without revenue coming in. It has also been forced to cut the price of tickets to reflect the fact it is now launching in a period of lower consumer demand.

It now wants to delay delivery of aircraft three and four to give it time to bed down its initial operations.

Chief executive Brett Godfrey said the airline was talking to Boeing about delivery dates and was seeking flexibility from Boeing given the pain the US aircraft maker had caused it.

He said it was asking for a delay so the first four planes were not delivered so closely together.

"We're going to have our aeroplanes but I just don't want them here all at the same time before we launch," he said.

"So the work I have to do before Christmas is firm up that we can hopefully slide some of the later ones a little bit back. But we're very much on track for the end of February."

Mr Godfrey said Virgin did not have the resources to take four aircraft within the space of time proposed by Boeing.

"And secondly I'd like to get into the market first before we ramp ourselves up to full production," he said.

"Which is what the plan was in December. If you recall, we were going to launch Sydney-LA on December 15 and not look at any further capacity until we launched Brisbane on March 1."

Mr Godfrey said the airline was still looking at capacity cuts on domestic routes but said it was not panicking.

He said he was somewhat reassured by third-quarter figures and was now focused on what was going to happen this quarter.

Mr Godfrey said he believed Australians would still travel, but stay closer to home.

"I'm still a firm believer that retail sales are not a reflection of aviation any more," he said. "People will put off a car right now, they'll put off a white good or a flat screen TV.

"But they still want to travel at Christmas time and they've still got used to the fact that travel has become so affordable that it's become part of their everyday lives."

Meanwhile, figures released this week suggest budget travellers in Australia are in for a good Christmas, with the lowest airfares at a record low for December. Figures show that the best discount fares at the start of the month were 25 per cent cheaper than in December last year. Tourism groups are urging travellers to take advantage of the low fares and catch domestic flights.

no wonder! a number of the drivers for the 777 have now decided to stay where they are with the oz dollar falling off a cliff

It's as much about crewing as anything else.........

Saving money by only having 2 empty planes instead of 4. I hope Obama can turn the USA around quickly when he comes to office.

Management met with C & T department recently to discuss why senior pilots have not taken up positions with V. Management are generally surprised about the lack of interest in V from the VB ranks.

Have heard that because of pilot numbers in the wrong places (as opposed to too many pilots), upper management have been given an ultimatum from BG, fix the problem or your on your bike. BG apparently angry that last on first off was allowed into the last EBA. This means if redundancies occur, the EMB operation will be severely effected. They also want VB FO's to take DEC's with PB on PB terms and conditions. Yeh right!

SHOW ME THE MONEY!

$175 base for a captain on a B777 and 9 days off a month with no roster protection. YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING! :=:=:=:=

Wow DD with your attitude I am sure V management will be racing to give you a direct entry command on the 777. I understand there is a recruitment freeze on at VB so I am not sure if that is the Ultimatium that you are refering to. As for demanding more money when they haven't made a cent yet and VB seem to be positioning for a reduction in pilots numbers, intereresting industrial tactic. Let the ranting begin.......

What's the alternative to a first on last off? Boot someone who has been with you for 4 years while keep the 6 month FO on?? I think the problem is more of a resource allocation than of over staffing.

Minor correction, did you perhaps mean Last in, First off?

Kingswood

The problem is there are too many 737 F/O's and not enough EMB F/O's. If there are lay-offs then the newer recruits are all on the EMB, the exact pool they do not want to loose.

737 F/O's do not want to move to EMB either because of loss of salary. Same reason they don't want to take up the PB command. Also why would they go to V Aus and have 9 days off a roster instead of 12?

mention1:

For the good of the company of course. Years of sacrifice, training, family, sanity.... why wouldn't any pilot be prepared to "take one" for the team!

They (management) really do not have any idea do they!

LR3 -

The "massive shareholdings" are practically worthless now. Some of them, however, did make millions early on in the piece when the business was much more focused. Share price now around 28 cents.

As it stands now, executive largesse and corporate inaction has crippled the organisation to the point where it is rudderless and yet, it's allegedly about to start an international operation to the world's biggest sinking economy.

If it's true, Tiger into Sydney will also further undermine the VB operation.

Someone in Virgin has to have the balls to rein this lot in and get the company back to a long term sustainable operating mode.

It's Ansett all over again if they don't.

Go figure.:ugh:

Coaldemon,

You are correct, I hope management will not race to give me command on the B777, just like they have done with the other pilots at VB. The attitudes are directly proportional to what is a fair salary for a "FAIR" days work! If my attitudes are directly proportional to how the whole VB/VAUS recruitment process was sold to us during the EBA as opposed to how the actual recruitment process has panned out, and how crap the package is at VAUS for a pilot, well so be it!

The ultimatum I was refering to was the poor management application of resourse planning and an EBA clause that severely effects the companies abilities to kull in areas where its needed, and grow in others areas where required.

Demanding more money when the company has not even started yet is a lame argument. The package is very substandard, its a package that is less than the B737, in every way. So if you believe that is what you are worth, good for you, but I will then have to reserve the right to express my opinion of what I think of you, as you have expressed your opinion of what you think of me.

"Doctor, would you like to come and operate at our new hospital, its got the state of the art gear, but its a start up hospital and I can only pay 2/3rds of the going rate for your services, please help us out, and I will look after you when things get going and times are better, you will have no say about your schedule, and if you brown nose hard enough and don't dare to buck the system, I may one day make you a senior surgeon."

And the Doctors would come flooding, yeh right!

My understanding is that VB management see pilot employment at Virgin as type specific.So they think they can retrench off the 737 whilst employing on the EMB.

Whatever "they", (management) think is irrelevant. What the EBA says re: redundency is where the outcome will lie.

It's not hard - transfer 737 FO's to the EMB on 737 wages. Airlines do it all the time all over the world.

Grivation,

That offer is on the table as of last week. The offer is 6 months as an Ejet FO on 737 wages and after 6, months they will be offered a command slot on the Ejet (if suitable) or remain on the Ejet as an FO on Ejet pay or return to the 737.

It looks that way to me too. But what to do?

Folks,
This thread is about V Australia - not VB. Let's get back on track, eh? If you want to talk about VB crewing matters please start another thread.

TID

I think one of the big problems for this VOZ debacle is that if BG had come out and said that the international operation was not going ahead, it would have had serious knock on effects in the public's confidence in the domestic VB - With obvious Ansett like ramifications.

If the "neurosurgeons" in Brisbane have got any sense, they'll come up with a plan that enables VOZ to be "quietly" cut adrift so that the remainder of the company has some chance of surviving over the longer term.

VA VB and PB are all seen as separate companies.If VA is not viable on it's own it will be cut loose rather than drag VB down with it.

Lets get one thing straight.... VB VA & PB are separate companies - when it suits BG & co. When it doesn't suit, they are the same.

How do you thing VA will get off the ground without finance & backing from VB. VB will not let VA sink, as long as BG is at the helm - BG will sink every $ into making it work till it all comes crashing down (hopefully not!).

The Chef

mates rates: "VA VB and PB are all seen as separate companies.If VA is not viable on it's own it will be cut loose rather than drag VB down with it."

The vast majority of pax wouldn't know if they flew on Pac Blue or Virgin Blue. To them it's all the same, especially when a Pac Blue 737 operates a DJ route. Virgin Blue and the media has spun Vaus to be the international arm of Virgin Blue. They are not all seen as separate companies, and the elimination of one will cause lack of market confidence in the rest.

If BG and the execs at DJ had an effective way of cutting their losses with Vaus, they probably would have. But they've come this far, purchases the aircraft, employed and trained the crew, advertised the service and even the facilities (sim). They have to launch, and the plan they are using to overcome the present industry issues, is to delay the delivery of additional aircraft and services.

Pylet,

I'm sure what you say is close to the mark, but what are they going to do when the cash flow shortfall draws down on Virgin's cash reserves. There's a point where they must protect the domestic business from collapse. Cash is king - without it, they're stuffed.

It's an untenable situation in a very depressed economic environment.

which of you rocket scientists actually knows what virgins cash position is, whether they have positive cashflow at present, what the break even load factor is for Vaus, what the forward sales are telling management, what effect oil dropping to $40 a barrell has had on the business plan, and then what the combination of all those things have on the Virgin Blue group.

If all you geniuses were running the biggest companies in the world at present, they would all be filing for bankruptcy because the outlook is scary.

It is for this reason you guys fly aeroplanes and don't run companies. If Richard Branson ran and hid every time he faced difficult tiimes, Virgin would still be a record store in a basement in London.

If Vaus is a viable company, there is plenty of money in the wings to fund it for the short term. If it is not, it will be sold or wound up and life will go on. One thing is certain, it will be given a chance. They have come too far to pull the plug just because the financial environment has changed. In fact, high oil prices were a far higher threat than the credit crunch. If oil had continued to climb, i would say Vaus would be dead in the water as we speak.

6100

Like your optimism - Hope the reality matches it.:E

As far as cash reserves go, 4 or 5 hundred million dollars won't go far in the longer term if it has to support both the VA and domestic operations.

abc1 - I have held an ATP for over 30 years and NEVER paid for an endorsement.

I have also been VERY lucky to be continuously employed over that time - believe me it ain't rancor - just what I believe to be an honest assessment of the mess that Virgin now finds itself in.

I'm sure you'll agree we are all entitled to an opinion.

Umm...some of the biggest companies in the world have, and others are just about to file for bankruptcy. With skills like that, is this the reason management "geniuses" run companies, and not fly aeroplanes? (and get paid squillions with no downside)

When do you start with VAUS 6100? :)

When do you start KRUSTY?

VB management are seeking a meeting with the pilot reps to look at how they can manage the excess of 737 F/O's. The credit crisis is starting to hit lads. But there is plenty of work at PB and VAUS (oh maybe not, aircraft orders being delayed). Its going to get ugly very quickly, but management keep putting out emails to staff saying ignore the media, yet on the other hand we get emails from management saying we need your help to avoid redunancies.


The parcel is starting to unfold. They don't want to make people redundant yet I don't believe they can carry excess staff for too much longer (some F/Os are being rostered 4 months of reserve in a row), this will really put the wind up the shareholders now and set the media off into a further spin, this is how it all begins, this is what happened to AN, it starts off as little warnings here and there and everyone goes into denial for awhile, then the snowball effect begins and critical mass is reached in a very short period of time.

1600,

V as a group is wasting so much cash at the moment it must be hurting them. Vaus has been delayed and staff are being paid. Aircraft orders are being delay, both the 777 and EMB. They have too many pilots at VB yet not enough at PB. They cannot crew the EMB because pilots don't want to shift bases to Perth and Sydney, they have pilots on 4 months of reserve yet calling them out on their RDO's for a call out payment. They have 18 empty red seats on most flights, which means on average, one in every ten aircraft is flying around empty (no wonder the load factors have reduced, its not just the credit crisis), Live to Air has been a flop, and remains a flop (system faults galore), the EMB dispatch rate has been questionable, ask any engineer!

I want this airline to make billions of dollars, it has such a great potential and such great staff working here, yet the $50M savings they want to make is staring at them in the face. Stop having birthday parties and xmas parties, stop giving EMT's 17% payrises, get rid of this Vitality crap etc etc etc.

This is all a real worry!:sad::sad::sad:

dirty deeds,

Thanks for giving us a sober and pragmatic description of what's really going on at the coal face.

I think there maybe be plenty of ex Ansett guys and girls at VB getting a sense of deja vu.

Empty Red Seats
 

I have caught 3 x VB flights and 3 x Jetstar flights in the last month. The load factor in the general seats seemed similar, however in the 3 VB flights I did not see one person sit in the premium economy seats.

It looked a bit ridiculous for the last third of the pax to board as the back of the aircraft was full but there was all this vacant real estate up the front.

Does anyone ever sit on in the red seats?

It will be interesting to go over the VB end of financial year report soon to see how the last 1/2 compared to the first 1/2.

I'm no expert but there has been so many errors over the last couple of years. The failure of the 'Blue Room'(had to be made over & relaunched as 'The Lounge'; targeting suits not backpackers), the failure of Live to Air, the failure of the premium economy product(had to relaunch it with free food & drinks), reliability of the Ejets, fuel hedging compared with the competition, problems with over crewing, & mismanagement with PB crew numbers & retention. Everything DD previously said is true, including the massive bonuses an elite few received as well as huge pay increases for the top guys & spending ridiculous amounts of cash on parties around the country. I do not know if they get market opinions & surveys of what the consumer wants or just go along with one persons dream of what he wants the airline to be like. I too loved what the airline was capable of. It seems it went well riding on the failure of Ansett but that was on the cards to outsiders long before it went downhill. Now maybe a change of leadership may work better. I'm sure shareholders are thinking along similar lines...what's the price again.

Wed closed at 0.27c :ugh::cool:

Lets just wait and see what the loads are like when it gets up and running in Feb/Mar 09. I am sure there are plenty of pax willing to give VA a try because they are the new kid on the block. They have been shafted for years by QF and UA offering a rather average product on one of the longest sectors. Finally QF have the 380's and they will be running head to head against the 777's both far superior products to the aging 747's that have been used on the route.
I believe that next year UA will pull out of the route all together and leave it to the two Aussie carriers to battle it out. QF will be happy for the competition and will give VA a percentage of the market just like they allowed DJ to take just a tad over 30% of the domestic scene.
Competition allows the employer to instill some fear in the employees and give them some leverage when its time to negotiate pay. QF needs VA to survive so it can continue to cut costs on its LH dept.

no doubt VA will be a good product. If it wasn't for the strike in the US, the VA product could be the saving break VB is looking for. Its long overdue. Unfortunately it is now bleeding money from its delay. Once it's up & going it will be successful. Its a pity its been delayed.

Fly in the ointment ?
 

How will the announcement by Delta (that they are to operate ATL - LAX - SYD) in the new year, effect the thought process' at B******t Castle ?:\:{

Now they'll be up against three operators each with good oncarriage from the US end. They are now up against Oneworld & Star Alliance and have no useful connections with anyone at the U.S. end.

Not looking good at all !!!

Cut it loose now or lose the lot ??:ugh::{

"...no useful connections..."

Despite the distant relationship between VAus and the rest of the Virgin branding, surely Virgin America would provide those useful connections from LA. :confused: Would seem to make sense to me, but then again, good sense and aviation sometimes seem to be mutually exclusive :)

Many people here in the States go on the mighty dollar so if the pricing is right and the product is available on the many discount websites then who knows.

I'm mighty troubled by the possible Delta product invading Oz (but thats a personal issue) and up til now thought the V Oz product would be a success based on the competition from QF and United. Don't know about now.

Hope the folks at Virgin have got some wiley marketing ploys up their collective sleeves.