:suspect: Not really. I think that is a bit of a long shot. Given that it takes 10ish years to be a surgeon and that only a very small percentile of the population even qualify to go to med school, let alone become a surgeon, I don't think pilot training really compares. More so now that everyone has cadets who are FO's when our future doctor is only ending second year at uni.

However pilots have more responsibility and surgeons could learn alot from flying in terms of procedures and CRM.

The AFAP! Yeah right! http://smileydatabase.com/s/532.gif

WRONG!

It was, but at the time the EAA pilots in their own mind could do no wrong and had a know it all attitude on industrial matters. It was on the table, but they asked for too much and the QF CP of the day lost it and withdrew it from the discussions Has not been on the CPs table since.

The Regional F/As were offered progression and got it.

I believe Qlink flight attendants also voted overwhelming to strike in their last EBA and T&C's mysteriously improved.... divided we fall, when are we going to realise it?

So I guess the EAA "lifestyle roster" is not going to be introduced in a hurry:hmm: Or is the "look, no reserve days, now you know exactly when your 10 hour shift starts!" their idea of a better lifestyle?

As has been said many times, the answer is very simple, and even "cost-neutral" (using one of management's favourite terms) - a Group Opportunity List.
And according to my mate Murphy, now that I have left QL, it might happen.:cool:

Brass Monkey
 

Its interesting to see how many of us are in the same position... and can't see the changes we're after. Be assured though that Aus is always the last place to move when it comes to changes in the industry. Many managers have their Heads in the Sand!!! Shortages are all over the world and there's lots of poaching going on. Look at J* in SA. But if the Supply and Demand is something to go on, then you are guaranteed with patience to see the demands met... within reason.
Wages have slid and public perception is still that all pilots fit the stereo type of a QF Captain on over 200 g's a year.. this has to be changed.
I totally agree with Ozangel... fight fire with fire! This is not an emotional issue of whether you love flying or not... its about putting aside the dosh for the future you set out for... and struggled many years to get to!! Eg. GA
Shareholders will see to management. It's the shrewd ones that look elsewhere in the operations to find cost cutting measures to remain competitive.
I have been approached by 2 majors for Aus slots and it is still a very difficult decision to take a 30% cut to enjoy a better lifestyle.

I wish you all the best in the battle and hope there are not too many casualties!!
:D

Are Eastern still Pay-for-training? I understood that QF believed this to be the industry "norm" now?

What an unbelievable scam this has all turned out to be!

The 10k up front has turned into a 10k bond. First year FO is about 52k on the Q300 a bit more for the Q400.

Crew moral is down (actually that is quite an understatement) in both Eastern and Sunstate. Our #1 you beaut manager is a complete turd, who would be hard pressed being honest with his mother on her death bed.

Upper level management (those above the turd) treat us with utter contempt and distaste.

Then of course there is the issue of a whole crap load of FO's joining that have almost no aviation experience, meaning the Captain has low powered backup, whilst doing non precision approaches into non radar aerodromes in appalling weather. Extremely bad landings, and atrocious circling approach techniques are the order of the day.

Now I am not try to belittle the new QL recruites that exhibite the above characeristics, because they wouldn't know who they were anyway, **** if I was able to get a Dash job with sweet FA hours I would have jumped at it.

The sad part about it is when the management (read "Turd" or "Cockroach") tell us that these guys are "meeting the standard", and somehow think that we are so stupid as to believe them.

We are bleeding FO's and Captains and at the same time getting told a bunch of lies from management. FO's who have enough experience to upgrade to Captains WILL run out this year. The capacity to train FO's is diminishing as Training Capt's become Q400 Capt's or Virgin Crew, and yet the need to train new recruitd has NEVER been higher.

What the hell is going on?

Sorry it is getting late and I have to go to bed.

If safety is now being jeopardized, which it more than appears to be; where is the media, the unions and even Parliament? For that matter, where is Dick Smith on this one?

It's no use bleating...

Vote with your feet. They will park aeroplanes against the fence rather than try to tempt pilots to stay with better conditions...

Management know that when a better opportunity comes along, the Pilots will take it. To increase conditions would be costly, and the crews will leave anyway.

Good thing that there are opportunities now, not like 20 yrs ago when you needed 5000 hrs to get a turbo prop command.

Get your hand off it, Chris! :ugh: Trying to score some brownie (nose) points with Dick, are we? Pleeeease!

Grrowler - How's the Jungle Jet going? I doubt there will be a group opportunity list much before the most senior pilot remaining there has less than 1000TT, or until Dixon retires.:rolleyes:

It's public knowledge that the current arrangement which Newsensation alluded to is all there will ever be. For the rest of us, domestic career progression is to Virgin. For international, it's Dragon, Cathay etc.

As such, the status quo of resignations will continue ad infinitum, and whoever has all the pilots, wins.....

But don't forget everyone, the pilot shortage will be over in 2 years! :}

I disagree, Pushback. QL are now at the stage of losing senior guys with >10 years service - guys that were there for the lifestyle and not the money. To QL's credit, they have thrown some money at it, but it's missing the mark, because money in itself doesn't address lifestyle. 8 days off with 2 of them split does not equate to lifestyle when you are a shift worker and you see others getting 10+ days off.

Go figure?

What does this mean...?

That could be Fri / day and perhaps Wedn / esday?

3 paired days (one of which has to be a weekend) and two single days total 8 days in 28

Hugh Jarse and all,

You have got what you deserve. Your negotiators at your last EBA obviously did nothing to deal with scope issues, flow through to mainline, status quo violation penalties regarding schedule, pay for training and most of all remuneration.

Eastern was regarded as little more than a glorified bank run company in the days of Cessna 404s and when the service was given to them out of Port when East West Airlines pulled out. The standards of punctuality, professionalism in the circuit and radio all went down. The last time I used you guys I was in Port Macquarie. We were called at our farm by reservations and told the service wouldn't be running on Sunday morning and I could either come down the night before or miss my flight to LAX, which could be changed...for an additional fee. No explanation as to why it wasn't running.

So Hugh...given that your beloved employer ,(past if you're at Virgin by now), couldn't run a service when you weren't faced with any of the challenges you are now facing, what do you propose we think of the bright and rosy picture before us?

If your new hires can't do an approach in Australian weather and can't land a plane properly, the issue is in the professionalism of your training.

Like they say..some things never change.

Coffin Corner,


a q400 fo annual salary is 55,200. Remember, income tax in Australia is extremely high. Expect to pay about 35% of this in tax, correct me if I'm wrong!


For you to put the time into converting from the JAA to the ATPL, it would be quite a process.

Many here in Aus are doing the reverse and it takes months and months to resit the exams and a very costly exercise...perhaps over $10,000 Aus.

For someone in Europe to come to Australia, move at their own expense and earn significantly less after tax and convert their licence, you must really want to live in Aus then.

You are welcome, but I can assure you that it's not so much brighter here!

3 paired days (one of which has to be a weekend) and two single days total 8 days in 28

Not even. The current EBA states that only 1 weekend in 6 needs to be rostered with an annual average of 1 in 4.

Much has been said about lifestyle already in this thread. The reality is that most crews, in particular the Q400 drivers, are flying equal hours, equal duty and equal overnights in a month as the VB drivers and earn significantly less - somewhere in the range of 30K-50K.

Lets admit it. On a day when we have 8/8ths of blue, light and variable winds and only fly a few sectors, it is a pretty cruisy gig. But when the weather turns bad, your flying on min rest, trying to study (in your own time) for sim checks and the like you earn every little pay cheque they give you.

Yes - It drove me around the flippin bend when I was unfortunately hurt at work "Managed to tear a muscle while chasing a perp over backyard fences"

There is a saying.

"Give me a tank full of city gas, a siren, a firearm Yeeeeehaaaaa"

Praise to all you guys that are standing up for your pay right's etc and how management screw everyone around it is not just in aviation

Given the mass amount of hiring Qantas mainline are doing....... with the average experience levels. I truly believe Rex and Qlink et al are truly stuffed. Considering Qantas have just taken on a guy with 700hrs TT (NO multi engine).... if this trend continues, it's goodnight T-prop operators...

i know a guy who got into qantas after only doing his first solo. he had 15.4 hrs under his belt. go figure.