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You are every bit as qualified as a surgeon However pilots have more responsibility and surgeons could learn alot from flying in terms of procedures and CRM. |
Use your unions, like other industries, to get this stuff into the media. |
for the record eastern pilots did not knock back career progression into qantas it was never offered, It was, but at the time the EAA pilots in their own mind could do no wrong and had a know it all attitude on industrial matters. It was on the table, but they asked for too much and the QF CP of the day lost it and withdrew it from the discussions Has not been on the CPs table since. The Regional F/As were offered progression and got it. |
I believe Qlink flight attendants also voted overwhelming to strike in their last EBA and T&C's mysteriously improved.... divided we fall, when are we going to realise it?
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So I guess the EAA "lifestyle roster" is not going to be introduced in a hurry:hmm: Or is the "look, no reserve days, now you know exactly when your 10 hour shift starts!" their idea of a better lifestyle?
As has been said many times, the answer is very simple, and even "cost-neutral" (using one of management's favourite terms) - a Group Opportunity List. And according to my mate Murphy, now that I have left QL, it might happen.:cool: |
Brass Monkey
Its interesting to see how many of us are in the same position... and can't see the changes we're after. Be assured though that Aus is always the last place to move when it comes to changes in the industry. Many managers have their Heads in the Sand!!! Shortages are all over the world and there's lots of poaching going on. Look at J* in SA. But if the Supply and Demand is something to go on, then you are guaranteed with patience to see the demands met... within reason.
Wages have slid and public perception is still that all pilots fit the stereo type of a QF Captain on over 200 g's a year.. this has to be changed. I totally agree with Ozangel... fight fire with fire! This is not an emotional issue of whether you love flying or not... its about putting aside the dosh for the future you set out for... and struggled many years to get to!! Eg. GA Shareholders will see to management. It's the shrewd ones that look elsewhere in the operations to find cost cutting measures to remain competitive. I have been approached by 2 majors for Aus slots and it is still a very difficult decision to take a 30% cut to enjoy a better lifestyle. I wish you all the best in the battle and hope there are not too many casualties!! :D |
Are Eastern still Pay-for-training? I understood that QF believed this to be the industry "norm" now?
What an unbelievable scam this has all turned out to be! |
The 10k up front has turned into a 10k bond. First year FO is about 52k on the Q300 a bit more for the Q400.
Crew moral is down (actually that is quite an understatement) in both Eastern and Sunstate. Our #1 you beaut manager is a complete turd, who would be hard pressed being honest with his mother on her death bed. Upper level management (those above the turd) treat us with utter contempt and distaste. Then of course there is the issue of a whole crap load of FO's joining that have almost no aviation experience, meaning the Captain has low powered backup, whilst doing non precision approaches into non radar aerodromes in appalling weather. Extremely bad landings, and atrocious circling approach techniques are the order of the day. Now I am not try to belittle the new QL recruites that exhibite the above characeristics, because they wouldn't know who they were anyway, **** if I was able to get a Dash job with sweet FA hours I would have jumped at it. The sad part about it is when the management (read "Turd" or "Cockroach") tell us that these guys are "meeting the standard", and somehow think that we are so stupid as to believe them. We are bleeding FO's and Captains and at the same time getting told a bunch of lies from management. FO's who have enough experience to upgrade to Captains WILL run out this year. The capacity to train FO's is diminishing as Training Capt's become Q400 Capt's or Virgin Crew, and yet the need to train new recruitd has NEVER been higher. What the hell is going on? Sorry it is getting late and I have to go to bed. |
If safety is now being jeopardized, which it more than appears to be; where is the media, the unions and even Parliament? For that matter, where is Dick Smith on this one?
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It's no use bleating...
Vote with your feet. They will park aeroplanes against the fence rather than try to tempt pilots to stay with better conditions... Management know that when a better opportunity comes along, the Pilots will take it. To increase conditions would be costly, and the crews will leave anyway. Good thing that there are opportunities now, not like 20 yrs ago when you needed 5000 hrs to get a turbo prop command. |
Get your hand off it, Chris! :ugh: Trying to score some brownie (nose) points with Dick, are we? Pleeeease!
Grrowler - How's the Jungle Jet going? I doubt there will be a group opportunity list much before the most senior pilot remaining there has less than 1000TT, or until Dixon retires.:rolleyes: It's public knowledge that the current arrangement which Newsensation alluded to is all there will ever be. For the rest of us, domestic career progression is to Virgin. For international, it's Dragon, Cathay etc. As such, the status quo of resignations will continue ad infinitum, and whoever has all the pilots, wins..... But don't forget everyone, the pilot shortage will be over in 2 years! :} To increase conditions would be costly, and the crews will leave anyway. Go figure? |
with 2 of them split |
That could be Fri / day and perhaps Wedn / esday?
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3 paired days (one of which has to be a weekend) and two single days total 8 days in 28
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Hugh Jarse and all,
You have got what you deserve. Your negotiators at your last EBA obviously did nothing to deal with scope issues, flow through to mainline, status quo violation penalties regarding schedule, pay for training and most of all remuneration. Eastern was regarded as little more than a glorified bank run company in the days of Cessna 404s and when the service was given to them out of Port when East West Airlines pulled out. The standards of punctuality, professionalism in the circuit and radio all went down. The last time I used you guys I was in Port Macquarie. We were called at our farm by reservations and told the service wouldn't be running on Sunday morning and I could either come down the night before or miss my flight to LAX, which could be changed...for an additional fee. No explanation as to why it wasn't running. So Hugh...given that your beloved employer ,(past if you're at Virgin by now), couldn't run a service when you weren't faced with any of the challenges you are now facing, what do you propose we think of the bright and rosy picture before us? If your new hires can't do an approach in Australian weather and can't land a plane properly, the issue is in the professionalism of your training. Like they say..some things never change. |
Coffin Corner,
a q400 fo annual salary is 55,200. Remember, income tax in Australia is extremely high. Expect to pay about 35% of this in tax, correct me if I'm wrong! For you to put the time into converting from the JAA to the ATPL, it would be quite a process. Many here in Aus are doing the reverse and it takes months and months to resit the exams and a very costly exercise...perhaps over $10,000 Aus. For someone in Europe to come to Australia, move at their own expense and earn significantly less after tax and convert their licence, you must really want to live in Aus then. You are welcome, but I can assure you that it's not so much brighter here! |
3 paired days (one of which has to be a weekend) and two single days total 8 days in 28
Not even. The current EBA states that only 1 weekend in 6 needs to be rostered with an annual average of 1 in 4. Much has been said about lifestyle already in this thread. The reality is that most crews, in particular the Q400 drivers, are flying equal hours, equal duty and equal overnights in a month as the VB drivers and earn significantly less - somewhere in the range of 30K-50K. Lets admit it. On a day when we have 8/8ths of blue, light and variable winds and only fly a few sectors, it is a pretty cruisy gig. But when the weather turns bad, your flying on min rest, trying to study (in your own time) for sim checks and the like you earn every little pay cheque they give you. |
better than sitting at a desk all day There is a saying. "Give me a tank full of city gas, a siren, a firearm Yeeeeehaaaaa" Praise to all you guys that are standing up for your pay right's etc and how management screw everyone around it is not just in aviation |
Given the mass amount of hiring Qantas mainline are doing....... with the average experience levels. I truly believe Rex and Qlink et al are truly stuffed. Considering Qantas have just taken on a guy with 700hrs TT (NO multi engine).... if this trend continues, it's goodnight T-prop operators...
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i know a guy who got into qantas after only doing his first solo. he had 15.4 hrs under his belt. go figure.
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Coffin Corner and megapixel32,
I don't believe the information regarding JAA to OZ is correct - might only require an Air Leg exam. I would check it out with CASA, not sure but I think it's a lot easier than going the other way. However the rest of the info is 100% spot on. If you were to go to the trouble of converting, I think there would be a lot better job options than QL! |
Chris Higgins, I will bite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As one who is very much involved with Training/Checking in this outfit, I think I am in a better position to judge the standards,than a weasle like you that makes grossly inflammatory assumptions and who casts aspersions from the other side of the world. Last time I looked every airline in every country around the world cancels flights and DO NOT have to give you a reason. The standards required by the CAR 217 Manager are unrealistically high (read MINIMUM 4 cyclics per annum; more likely double that with sim reserve) and absolutely zero tolerance for failing to make the grade. You sit in your Netjet mate and tell me how hard it is to do engine out approaches in an aircraft not certified for autoflight coupled approaches(on one engine) in sh1t weather to 100 above the minima and then circle off the bottom(hand flown manual thrust vref plus feckall), and when you have that proficiently down pat come and tell me just how good your standards are(that's right I forgot; you have autothrust,autocoupled single engine capability and a real FMS). For you to make those kind of statements to Hugh(who BTW is one of aviations finest and would never insult you or your outfit) really shows how much of a d1ckhead you are. Stay over there in the land of brave and home of the free mate, with comments like yours we don't want you back here. Go fcuk yourself. |
Well Said Norm!:D:D:D:D:D:D
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'Norm' you/we obviously know that the poster yr refering to is wrong with his comments, anyone in Oz knows better but yr post has obviously shown he's getting to you. Don't let this guy get to you & win, try not 'feeding' him by responding with such bitter responses. Such displays of retaliation aren't professional & none of us here want to go down to his low level.
By simply not replying to these guys they eventually fade away 'cause they can't 'feed' off those that hnag off their 'hook' Obviously I'm not having a go at you 'norm' just that from the outside looking in this guy isn't worth the response you gave him. CW |
Norman, thanks.
Thats exactly why QL drivers are in such high demand from VB, J*, Cathay, Dragon etc. and why we are trusted with training future QANTAS Capt's. however just not good enough to fly their machines from any seat. |
Norm 1 Higgins 0.
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Normasars,
Alright, if you want to make a serious case of this and how great you all are. I will give you a date and time where one of your magical crews were doing a circling approach at PMQ and freely admitted that they were down at 300 feet AGL on radar altimeter and in IMC! You call that professional? Then there's the time and date where one of your esteemed crew had his significant other on the jumpseat and spent most of the time laughing and cackling, and could be heard most of the way back into the cabin on approach into Mascot. Myself, wife and at the time, two kids were in the back. After shut-down we were told, "Thank you for flying Qantas". (?!) Alright, I'll admit it, these were isolated situations and they happened years back, but then there's this one:-We came back from a navex during the times of the Class 4 Night Rating and after one your crew gave his welcome to sunny Port Macquarie speeches on the area frequency got onto the crosswind leg and promptly turned off all the exterior lights(?!), how do you do that in the first place is beyond me, but it happened. It doesn't stop there... Not long after that we were called at the flying school to get a realtor to Sydney in the Cessna 210. The Eastern Service had been canceled because the plane had been run into a hangar, again ages ago; but the list goes on. It was followed shortly after by a canceled morning service where one of the crew had slept in. Let's talk about standards of training, not to mention standards of etiquette and the way you represent your employer on a forum such as this. Back in the 1990's I was flying air ambulance out of Western PA and took a children's hospital team down to Bowling Green, Kentucky. The team was delayed at the hospital as they spent more time preparing our 12 hour old patient. The following story was told to me by the flying school owner. It might explain some of the shame I feel for the way standards have deteriorated in Australian training. Your conduct on these posts lets me believe that things might even be worse. The young Australian flying instructor took pride in telling others he had been taught in Australia and that his father was a B747 skipper for the national carrier. He was late for work most times and didn't seem to take much advice from anyone. Several months passed and many of the students requested a change from our young hero, to one of the local breed and finally a full time student settled into a routine with him and set off on a navex to Illinois and at night, despite the fact that he was still a student pilot license holder and had never flown x-country before. Yep; it gets worse. They get lost, run out of fuel at night and crash into the side of a house, but miraculously survive! The student goes home and signs up with another flying school in Florida and our fellow country man goes to get another plane for the flying school after being re-qualified by the local FAA officer. He demands that his employer pay him for the time spent getting the plane that replaced the one he destroyed. An argument takes place and he finally agrees his sins and begs forgiveness and a few months later gets into a Cessna 172 and runs it into a light pole. Guess where he's working now? But then again it's been years, so maybe he's not even flying. The story seemed so unbelievable to me at the time, because the professionalism of training at places like Sydney Tech in the late 1980's saw most of these types disappear before they even got done with their own training. They would either flunk ground school exams, not make it through the flying school's programs in Bankstown or get shot down during the issuance of their instructor's rating. There was a time where Australian (TAA) looked at an instructional background with reassurance of standards along the way. I don't think that we have that guarantee in Australia anymore. End of Part 1. |
The aircraft I fly now goes as high as FL510 and has a maximum Mach number of 0.92. The wing is swept at 40 degrees and we have no auto throttles either and we do circling approaches at night and in mountainous terrain from non-precision approaches all of the time. It's part of the job, it's not heroic, it's procedurally flown and trained to a standard. Telluride, Aspen, Montrose, Rifle and Grand Junction are all part of a normal weekly routine during the ski season.
The little Jetstram 41 at JFK didn't have anything special on it either and I'm sure it was no less or more challenging to fly than your beloved Bombardier. I talked to a group of Sunstate guys at baggage claim in Seattle not long ago and I'm sure that they were striving for the highest possible standards as they went to training on the Q-400. I have no doubt that they are capable and well prepared professionals. Normasars, with a rather poorly researched and xenophobic response like your own, I doubt the standards have improved much at Eastern. If you are such a mighty and powerful check-airman I would like to take you up on a challenge that you so seem to hold the ability to stage. I'll fly your profile and in your simulator and in the manner in which you have described with absolutely no problems at all. It shouldn't be much of a challenge for any of your employees either and if it is, then again, that's a reflection of poor training standards. If your training standards are poor and you are sourcing your new applicant talent from a lower experience pool, you have to either increase the standards of your training or pay more to your new hires to attract higher experience. Otherwise safety is being compromised. The Emperor has no clothes.... |
"Vigi-one". I can assure you that the people that leave any carrier to go to another one receive additional training. I think that's a little over the top to credit yourselves with providing the training necessary to fly for somebody like CX. In the training environment, most people bust rides on parameters that should have been met in primary training, not on technologies or automation.
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Capn Bloggs,
In another thread with Dick Smith on Class E Airspace, you stated that you don't give position reports on an IFR flight plan in positive radar control. That would be true of here in the United States for frequency congestion alone, but what concerns me is the manner in which you responded. What efforts have you made to ascertain if your interpretation of the Australian AIP is correct? Does your company have a safety committee? Did you call your chief pilot? Again, unless we strive for a standard, it will never be met. We will descend into the mire of the Australian "yobbo" culture with the IQ of a retarded mosquito. I haven't spoken to Dick Smith in years, but you can thank your lucky stars that he cares as much as he does. |
descend into the mire of the Australian "yobbo" culture with the IQ of a retarded mosquito. The aircraft I fly now goes as high as FL510 and has a maximum Mach number of 0.92. The wing is swept at 40 degrees and we have no auto throttles either and we do circling approaches at night and in mountainous terrain from non-precision approaches all of the time. :confused: (this dude doesn't belong here) |
I doubt the standards have improved much at Eastern. If you've got anything relevant to say on the thread topic - by all means drop a reply, other wise start your own thread or do as Norma requested. I do actually have one or two ideas on the current situation at QL - anybody wanna get back on topic or are we all going to get sucked in to an irrelevancy? |
Chris Higgins,
I won't speak for other contributors on this forum. My posts are not intended to be critical of my employer. The reason I made the statements I did is because I don't want to see what is essentially a good company in crisis. Employees have a right and responsibility to draw matters to their employer's attention which might help improve the well-being of the company. I have openly expressed these feelings to my direct managers (who read these pages) and they all know who I am - A result of using my nickname as my PRRuNe login :E I have enjoyed working for this company almost 14 years. I find your allegations are emotive, offensive, and at best difficult to believe, because I personally know and have flown with every Captain in this company in my time in one capacity or another. I have never witnessed any of the behaviours you describe. Alright, I'll admit it, these were isolated situations and they happened years back, but then there's this one:-We came back from a navex during the times of the Class 4 Night Rating and after one your crew gave his welcome to sunny Port Macquarie speeches on the area frequency got onto the crosswind leg and promptly turned off all the exterior lights(?!), how do you do that in the first place is beyond me, but it happened. 2. Back then the aircraft fitout had a separate interphone/PA handset so it would not be possible to do the PA on the radio without a significant brain fade; Nonetheless I've had finger trouble in the past with the radios and no doubt will again. That's what's called human factors, Chris. Sorry, I'm not a skygod belting around at F510 with 40 deg sweepback ;) 3. To turn off all exterior lights would activate a caution light in the flight deck, necessitating action via a QRH procedure. Not something you really want to do in the circuit if you can avoid it, especially at night.:cool: Myth Busted Alright, if you want to make a serious case of this and how great you all are. I will give you a date and time where one of your magical crews were doing a circling approach at PMQ and freely admitted that they were down at 300 feet AGL on radar altimeter and in IMC! So what did the crew do wrong? Unless you were in the flight deck looking out the window you are not qualified to make your statement. No doubt you will retort with "no, that's not what I meant - I meant they were in cloud". Prove it. Myth Busted Give us a break. The general populace around here know you dislike Eastern. Who knows why? I've never seen a positive post from you yet (apart from stroking your own and Dick Smith's ego). No disrespect intended to DS. Now let's get back on the topic. People leaving Qantaslink. Good morning.:ok: |
Hugh,
Your references to circling would be correct if they represented the lowest value for circling with adequate visual reference to the airport and the aircraft was 300' above the highest obstacle in the circling radius. Any operation of the aircraft below the published minima in anything other than a visual maneuver is careless and reckless operation. Your assertion that a circling approach is an instrument procedure is in defiance of airmanship as well as legislation. Yeah, well, we know where these guys are getting their ideas! I'm glad you've enjoyed working with your crews. Good Luck!! |
Pilot Shortage?
Well thing's can't be to bad at Qantaslink. A friend of mine just got knocked back with an ATPL and Grade 1, Charter/Instructing background. He thinks he must just be a Psycho, as proved by the psych and skills test?
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QL in crisis??
Not wanting to get involved in the back and fro comms between some parties, there has been some comments that the pilot shortage will be over in 2 years. :confused:
I am not sure about that though as QF group has a very large (>100) order book at present, all due before 2015 max. With increasing activity in the area in regards to new/ expanding operations, and the current pilot draw that that requires, I believe we might be talking about pilot shortages for some time to come. Add to this the fact that anyone less than the direct decendant of the well off just wouldn't be able to look at pilot training. Pilot shortage over in 2 years - I'm just not sure. Personally, I drive a desk at the moment; but would jump at the chance to even drive a Q2-300 for the rest of my time.:ok: Safe flying to all. |
A friend of mine just got knocked back with an ATPL and Grade 1, Charter/Instructing background. You only need HSC and CPL. Which reminds me, How are these new un-instrument-rated juniors going to get their Ratings? In the sim? Where are they going to get their first real IF and real approaches? On the line? p.s. CH The aircraft I fly now goes as high as FL515 and has a maximum Mach number of 0.93. The wing is swept at 42 degrees and we have 15 degrees anhedral. We go really, really fast. So that makes me more important I reckon. |
I'm happy for you Wynsock, the International Space Station looks pretty cool from there, don't you also "reckon"?
Just remember which switch to turn on to come back down. We can all talk about this over a beer after we fly that Dash 8 sim around, right Normasars? |
Normasars,
Engine out negates auto throttle in any aircraft with auto throttle capability....as far as I know. A/P is available as long as the FGC or similar is not being asked for control inputs beyond it's capability. Stand to be corrected. And the subject of the thread seems to have been lost. D |
As an aside Chris H. Did cessna not make the 10/X with auto throttle?
D |
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