HH, I fully agree it’s not very clear. For the actual flight in the TIBA area, no, you are not subject to a clearance. You can do as you like; which is required for you to ‘self-separate’. If you will exit the TIBA into a class of airspace that does require a clearance (and it’s a red letter day and there’s a controller on duty!), you do need an “onwards clearance” for the continuation of the flight in controlled airspace; which is required for us to provide a positive control service. So although the area subject to TIBA procedures is still the same class of airspace, it is in effect a little pocket of “OCTA”. Another way to look at it is that’s it’s similar to a clearance limit that has been imposed; an onwards clearance is required. Clear as mud.

With regard to the title of this thread ML was never actually a CTAF. The aerodrome itself (surface) was ‘uncontrolled” but still totally surrounded by the active control zone. A clearance to get airborne was still required “..become airborne on track/heading etc..”. Inbound you’re cleared for the approach report clear of the runway. Actually, exactly the same way EN procedures work outside TWR hours.

Unfortunately, yes, you will get more practice.

Thank you MOG that is an extremely good explanantion!:ok:

I was aware that you needed to contact centre for an onwards clearance prior to re-entering CTA after a period in TIBA, just wasn't quite sure how it works when the flight is terminating in that piece of airspace.

Once again thanks for a great explanation, it is now as clear as the proverbial mud!;)

The relevent NOTAM
 

C73/08 Notamn
A) Melbourne C73/08 (ats) 0801251404
B) 0801251405 C) 0801251505
E) Atc, Fis And Alerting Services Normally Provided By Melbourne Tower Are Not Avbl Due To Staff Shortages.

Services Affected: Aerodrome Control, Surface Movement Control, And Airways Clearance Delivery, Provided By Melbourne Tower, Melbourne Ground And Melbourne Clearance Delivery On Frequencies 120.5, 121.7, And 127.2.

Pilots-in-command Are Solely Responsible For Collision Avoidance
While Operating On The Manoeuvring Area. To Prevent Overloading Of The Contingency System, Access To Melbourne Aerodrome Will Be Restricted.

Common Traffic Advisory Procedures Apply For Operations On And In The Vicinity Of The Aerodrome On Frequency 120.5. Flight Information Service (fis) Available From Melbourne Terminal Control Unit(tcu)

Directed Traffic Information Will Not Be Available While Operating On The Manoeuvring Area.

Alerting Service Provided By Melbourne Terminal Control Unit(tcu).

Prior To Operating On The Melbourne Aerodrome Manoeuvring Area, Pilots Must Receive A Briefing On Contingency Procedures And Obtain A Programmed Landing Or Departure Time. Where Normal Briefing Channels Are Unsuitable, Contact Melbourne Tcu 03 9235 7337 To Obtain Contingency Briefing And Programmed Landing Or Departure Times.

All Airport Lighting Is Pilot Monitored. Operate In Accordance With The Ifr And Display Navigation And Anti Collision Lights At All Times.

Howard,

From the TWR point of view "cleared to land", TCAS has a poor record of perfomance on the RWY.

I just had a brilliant idea, how about we utilise the obviously under utilised senior management at ASA to run the operation, the core business.

I've heard previously that TFN believes its a **** easy job, we could use a clown like him at the workface. Judging by performance he's got to be good at something, surely.

And oh, what about BJ and the gameshow host with maybe 15 years console time between them, they must be handy for domestic chores. Yes thats it, I'll have white and zero every Wednesday morning up till easter how very good of you.:yuk:

Just kidding, I would rather buy my own.

BgTFN

If it happens in daylight hours I'll zip out to Sunbury and hire a Drifter ultralight and fly it in there.

Just doing the Notam check and see YMLT Tower closed due lack of staff

I find it strange that Mr Smith has nothing to say about ATC staffing problems, which is far more important than holding at Williamtown for 25 years. After all, we are talking about a major international airport not being available due staff shortages.

Cause even the 'US system' doesn't work without staff...;)

Who gives a f### what Dick thinks.

No Airservices in Australia have got some serious questions to answer about the way they run their business and the way they treat staff.
Interesting question would be if an incident or accident happens at somewhere like YMLT while the tower is shut due lack of staff, say Easystar B727 does an ILS into LT on a cloudy morning while Bill Smith in his Jabiru goes out does some circuits but has a finger trouble with the radio and misses the jets call inbound and they collide on final-wouldn't their be some duck shoving in the halls of power in CB. First question I would ask would be for a refund for the difference on my ticket for the ASA tower charge at LT, before we started talking settlement.

Bill Smith is no relation to Mr Richard Smith a highly regarded expert on all aviation matters.

Likewise Easystar bears no relation to any operator that operates an airline in Australia

they wont have to much luck recruiting new staff with a 75K 5 Year Bond that reduces at a rate of 15K a year and calculated yearly. load of &^%$ for a type specific job

Wot? It says 'lack of staff 'rather than the new weasel-words 'operational requirement'???

Wonder if we will get the blame next week when our airspace out round PH closes - something like 31 blank shifts in the next two weeks so it is bound to happen sometime! Days when there are no night shifts rostered, two blank out of four for a morning, etc..... Hard times coming up but can't wait to make the broadcast

'All stations Melbourne Centre, this airspace is now TIBA until xxxx, no Air Traffic Services provided until then' (or something like that, anyway)

Only way the 'leaders' in CB will take notice of the hole they have dug for themselves....

BTW - Will we still be entitled to the free coffee on a Wed morning if we close airspace? :p

Slight thread drift, but since the question has been asked...

Airspace Regulations 2007

Determination of airspace and controlled aerodromes etc

(1) CASA may, in writing, make a determination on any of the
following matters:
(a) that a volume of airspace is:
(i) a flight information area; or
(ii) a flight information region;
(b) that a volume of airspace extending upwards from ground
or water to a specified altitude is a control zone;
(c) that a volume of airspace extending upwards from a
specified altitude is a control area;
(d) that a volume of airspace is airspace classified, in accordance with Annex 11 to the Chicago Convention, as Class A, B, C, D, E, F or G;
(e) that an aerodrome is a controlled aerodrome.

...

(5) However, a determination in respect of:
(a) a flight information area or a flight information region; or
(b) a control area or a control zone; or
(c) airspace of any class; or
(d) a controlled aerodrome;
has no effect during any period in which relevant air traffic services are not provided.



So: unless anybody can provide some authoritative advice to the contrary, it seems that airspace published (in NOTAM) as TIBA (i.e. in which "relevant air traffic services are not provided") becomes 'nothing' airspace. Or, to put it another way, it loses whatever classification it was previously declared to be.

....g'day Philthy, you been reading way too much there mate!!..obviously idle times for you at the pointy end !:)......still you are an airline pilot these days & now officially know heaps!:)

Trust yr well there Philthy!

TIBA= Total Introductory & Basic Airspace :)

CW:)

Capt. Wally,

You might have the wrong Philthy, I think...

But since you ask, I'm very well at the blunt end thanks very much.

Cheers,

Philthy

Not gonna register the 4 seat whale for RPT, Philthy:p?

Nope, but since they've banned bugsmashers from the chopper lane I might have to wait for the next bout of TIBA to flog down to MEL for some snaps!

......whoooops soz 'philthy', thought it was another philthy phil:E..............he too is now an airline pilot, poor bloke !:)
Glad to see yr doing well anyway:)

CW:)

Keep up DA 2nd last page of the AsA staffing thread :ok:

So I hear on the rumopur mill that my CTAF map (see page 1) has made its way onto the walls of many AirServices offices and towers:}

Apparently some management were not amused, but maybe it helped get the point accross.

Any of you have any stories to tell to substaniate the rumour? Is anything actually going to be changed for the better?

J:ok: