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QF SO's/ex instructors to be sent back to GA
This month's Flight Ops Newsletter refers to the problem of a scarcity of flight instructors. Apparently Qantas' grand plan to address the pilot shortage is in danger of being derailed before it starts. Put simply, how do you train 300 cadet pilots per year when there are no instructors left to train them?
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF. This is an interesting scenario: QF mainline pilots training cadets, some of whom will be sent to Jetstar to work for 40% less pay, allowing management to pit them against all QF mainline pilots to screw them on wages and conditions! In any other industry, if an employer said "please help me train someone to do your job for less pay", what do you think would be the response? So I guess if you're a QF Second Officer and you're asked to go and instruct, you would do well to consider what doing your bit to alleviate the pilot shortage might do to your livelihood. Don't do it! Or if you are going to do it, make sure they pay you an absolute King's Ransom! |
There is nothing new here.
At every level of aviation there are people being asked to train pilots who will earn less than the trainers. Don't lump the blame just upon the SOs. |
Rumour has it that appropriately rated Second Officers may be asked to return to instructing, with the difference in pay being made up by QF. Somehow, I just don't see QANTAS assisting the business of a Bankstown based flight school owning QF Captain who is having enormous difficulty finding and retaining instructors. Maybe some QF pilots might like to volunteer their time and do a bit of work on the side, but for QF to go releasing their SO's is a bit far fetched. That would mean they would need to hire more staff to cover those who are on secondment. BTW, as a QF A330 FO I am also an appropriately rated and current Grade One FI. I think it would be fantastic to draw a QF salary and work as a FI. It is my dream come true! My family would love it. Yep, no more of that ''sitting-up-at-0330-in-the-dark-stuff' anymore for me! Just pull in the six figures by bashing the circuit with Bloggs 5 days a week:ok: Then occasionally, just to get it out of my system, fly the 'Bus to Honky or Singas once a month and stock up on the Duty Free. Where do I sign? |
OhSpareMe,so your one of the guys that are sick of flying and just want the money or did you ever really like flying?
It's sad when you understand how many people really would love to fly but the spots are taken up by people who just want to be a 'pilot'. Like the saying goes 'People who can, do and those that can't (or won't) teach.' |
It's sad when you understand how many people really would love to fly but the spots are taken up by people who just want to be a 'pilot'. |
Its a plan that will most likely happen. Speaking to a fellow who heard it from the CP himself.
Plan is to employ new recruits, give them a start date and therefore seniortiy number with the Rat, send em back to Adeliade to train at the cadet school on quite a nice package. Also quote "we dont know where we are going to get crew to fly the aircraft on order" :uhoh: |
I'm with you OhSpareMe.....if QF based me at Bankstown every second bid period (saves doing blanklines on a rotating roster) I reckon that would be bloody fantastic. Home every night, roster stability....ah that would be nice. I am not really sure what you are on about RedTBar.....a guy makes a comment about personal lifestyle choice and you question his intergrity. At the end of the day, isn't that why we work....to achieve the lifestyle we want?? I love flying but given the opportunity to have a better lifestyle (i.e. home more often) I would jump at the opportunity. Remember dude....work to live dont live to work.
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Concur with ya Tempo.:E
Starting with QF and then being seconded to the flight training school on a 'nice package' whilst other recruits slide straight onto the 400? All because I had the 'misfortune' of having an Instructor Rating? Now I reckon that might piss a few people off. But in case Red-T Bar is a little confused, I should have added that between my first post and this one I went out to the field and bashed around the circuit for 45 mins in a DH82. Yep, I really hate flying. |
I could not think of anything worse than going back to instructing.....
I really couldn't see QF forcing their instructor rated S/O's back into GA and if they did I would leave and go to JQ or VB....(command in a very short time and home alot more often.....) |
Just jumping in here with my own perspective.
The REX chief of staff recently stated that because of the shortage of instructors, suitably qualified REX pilots may be seconded to the training facility in Mangalore. Chr!st Almighty!!! The airline is cancelling flights left right and centre due to the losses of what are now irreplaceble crews, and this is what they come up with! At a recent meeting with the REXPC the Chairman of REX stated that he would rather cut off his arms than pay the pilots more money! Well it appears his managers are more than willing to provide the chainsaw. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul will not work. Like credt card debt it only feeds on itself, and is a short term solution at best. The only way this entire situation will begin to reverse is to make learning to fly (in the minds of young Australians) a viable career option again. It won't happen overnight, in fact it will probably take years. QF are in a similar (although much larger) boat as the rest of the industry. It appears however that they are as unwilling to face the reality as the rest. Buckle up guys. Going to be an interesting ride. |
No one will be forced. I believe it will be on a 'volunteer basis' but still paid by QF. Instructing will be every second bid period.
Its an amazing way this industry turns.... Also, I believe it will be offered to all current SO's that may be interested. |
Oh Spare Me
CM is not going to pay these new hire S/O's to train J* pilots. Mainline is desperate for pilots and will take every one that sausage factory can graduate. CM is the mainline Chief Pilot and he has no obligations to Jetstar (especially when J* management are refusing to even discuss getting an improved fitout of the B787). |
Why would anyone who is flying for the airlines want to go back to instructing????????
Didn't alot of us bust our balls to get out of it in the first place!!!! They would have to offer a large amount of cash (more than usual pay) for most guys to consider it! even then it still would not be enough!! Also Krusty, how is the cadet program going, i hear they will not even get into a A/C until feb/march next year!! , so much for having them ready to fly the saab by sep 2008!! dickheads!!:mad::mad: |
I agree that some may not want to continue working as an instructor, but, at least the airline is trying to do something to help the training schools continue - they are essential to the future of the airlines. If QF does not employ instructors at flying training schools then these instructors will be snapped up by other airlines and as such will be lost to both Qantas and the training schools. This plan is simply an investment in the future for Qantas.
There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions. If they are instructors then QF may now be appealing as they can remain instructing (on excellent pay) in their stable domestic environment while their seniority number goes up and then join the airline when a F/O position is coming up. This plan may not suit everyone but I'm sure that there are some who find that it suits their situation. QF Flight Ops Training have been developing this concept for quite a while now and it's obvious that it is going to cost a lot of money. Management have realised that they have to spend big money to secure enough pilots to fly all the aircraft that they have ordered (knowing this will make the LH EBA quite interesting). Word is, expect an announcement soon that QF will pick up the full cost of pilot training for young school/uni graduates interested in the profession. |
How is this for an idea.
Include an Instructor Rating as part of the new degree based cadet course. Have the graduates instruct for two years at the school in lieu of the Industry Placement Program before they join Mainline. I admit that it wouldn't do much for gene pool diversification, but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots. It would also provide them with a basis from which to further their instructional technique when, and if, they are appointed (invited) to the Training Section. There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions. I never said anything about CM helping out Jetstar. |
Not quite sure what you are trying to say GB?
The fact is that neither Qantas, REX or it appears any other operator is really trying to do anything at all. If they were they would have identified the true cause of this crisis and done something about it long ago. Perhaps they did identify the cause, but are unable to come to grips with the cure. Eventually something will give. The realisation that all this spin, and evasion of the real issues will ultimately be a waste of time. Careers, (middle management probably) will be sacrificed on the alter of accountability as they scramble for the few remaining suitable drivers out there. We may then see a massive increase in T&C's. The question remains however, how long before reality bites? The question of how many QF S/O's take up the offer is of course up to them. I agree with Cantstandya that the offer would have to pretty good. Unless you are a masochist or have some extreme military like sense of duty, well, I think you get the picture. My prediction.
Not sure how it's all going, but agree with you completely. If they think that any of these guys will be ready by even the end of next year, then they are dream'n. In any case things will come to a head long before they get anywhere near a SAAB! |
KRUSTY 34, I agree that QF has been far too slow in identifying and putting fixes in place re the pilot shortage - SQ and some of the Chinese airlines have been a lot more pro-active. I believe that Dixon's cost cutting policies have driven a lot of this short sightedness.
OhSpareMe Include an Instructor Rating as part of the new degree based cadet course. Have the graduates instruct for two years at the school in lieu of the Industry Placement Program before they join Mainline. I never said anything about CM helping out Jetstar. |
"If they are instructors then QF may now be appealing as they can remain instructing (on excellent pay) in their stable domestic environment while their seniority number goes up and then join the airline when a F/O position is coming up."
Would this cause some problems with the minimum time on company aircraft that QF requires before you are given a slot??? "but at least QF would be getting some further value from their cadets rather than helping to prop up a Regional Airline that should be offering positions to GA pilots." These regionals are not forced to offer these positions to the cadets. They continue to do so by choice, based on their past experiences with the cadets. An old argument I know, but since when is a regional supposed to offer a position to a GA guy just because he/she is from GA?? They will offer the position to whoever will suit their needs at the time. Face facts, the cadets have performed very well, and in the current climate, they are going to stick around alot longer than a GA driver. |
The Regional is not supposed to offer anyone a job just because they are from GA. All I am saying is that cadets should, after completing their degree/flight training, be employed as the Instructors rather than releasing expensively trained line pilots back to instructing. In fact make them Instructors for two years then slot them into QLink for another couple of years before letting them slide on over to the heavy metal. Don't give them a choice in the matter, just tell them what to do - particularly if, as suggested above, the Rat is going to paying for everything.
Does this mean I can get a refund on my pilot training expenses? OK Astroboy, I will face the facts and acknowledge that the cadets have/are performing well. Just ask any cadet. I am happy for QF to hire as many cadets as they can. We need as many warm bodies with pilot licences that we can get our hands on. Jetstar, et al can look after themselves. |
The prospect of sending S/Os (and possibly junior F/Os) to the aligned flying schools has been mooted since the expanded cadet scheme was being floated about 18 months to two years ago. I've said previously that for a QF branded cadetship to work it needed to be significantly more than just hanging the QF sign on the front door and that QF personnel needed to play an active part in the management of the program if it were to really deliver.
I've got to say that I quite like the idea of offering experienced S/Os the opportunity of instructing. My preference is that they do at least one year on line before heading back instructing as it would give them a better understanding of the operation that they are training the cadets for as well as significantly more 'cred' with the students of at least having 'been there and done that'- albeit from the back seat. I'm also dead set against the current regime of getting your CPL and then becoming an instructor so that you can get the experience to then go and get a 'real' job. In no other industry that I can think of do you learn the job, then instruct the job so that you've got the experience to go out and get the 'real' job. In most other professional industries the trainers are all experienced at the real job who then go 'back' to train the younglings. In this respect the concept of having cadets get their CPL then instructors rating and then instructing other cadets for a couple of years prior to heading off to the airline is flawed in the extreme. Much better to have them do a couple of years on a Dash or in the back seat of a B744/A330 before making them go back and instruct. At least that way there is a greater degree of context to what they're instructing. Will it 'cost' QF? You betcha but I reckon then they're far more likely to be able to charge other airlines a premium for the product and at the end of the day this cadet course is designed to either minimise QF's cost and/or drag revenue in from outside the organisation. |
This plan has kinks left right and center.
What 'suitably qualified' SO/FO wants to delay their own progression to the RHS/LHS (and associated pay rises/reduced retirement nest egg) by spending extended periods back instructing just to help out short sighted management practices dating back years? If enough applicants made themselves available anyway they might be able to swing it to a limited extent by rostering them to instruct several days a mth each instead of reserve/standby days but that would severely restrict QF's ability to recover from schedule disruptions themselves at possibly enormous cost. From what I hear from current QF pilots QF is severely short of pilots themselves...a product of short sighted recruitment practices in the last several + years. Does anyone really think they have the spare capacity to release enough suitably qualified SO/FOs back to GA to instruct cadets? How many QF pilots are not already logging something in the order of 800-900 hrs/annum? Anyone given any thought to FTLs? |
Personally I think it would be short sighted of any current S/O or F/O to offer their services. The only way we are going to be able to maintain or improve our conditions is via having market forces on our side. Why anyone would want to help the company with the supply side of the equation is beyond me. :confused:
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CC, I think that you might have missed a couple of the salient points.
Seniority will accrue normally whilst instructing so there would be no delay in being promoted to F/O. They will be paid normal S/O rates with superannuation paid at standard rate so there will be no reduced retirement nest egg. Yearly pay increments (up to 12 years) will be paid as per normal. This plan is aimed at instructors currently at flying training schools - not at S/O's currently employed (as you said no spare capacity) Five of the recent QF recruits were high rated instructors from one of the larger flying training schools and I believe that the schools management complained big time to QF as the schools capacity to check out trainees had been sevely restricted by the loss of these instructors. |
QF wouldnt have a shortage of pilots if 50-70% of applicants didnt fail the stage 1 psych test.
Eliminate the dumb psych test and just inetrview all suitable candidates. |
While it is a good idea; I don't think to many people who have done a decent amount of time in GA will won't to go back there in a hurry.
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NoMoreCatering
You not wrong there! These pysche tests mean nothing, and perhaps Santa might have time to drop in at QF Pilot recruitment and bring them into the 21st C. by letting them know .:ugh: Any clever pyscho can pass a personality test, it's in the simmulator and online perfermance where they come unstuck, in the meantime a lot of good pilots don't get scrubbed at stage one. Blue Foot |
The allocation of instructors from QF is a largely academic argument. With the advent of the MPL , the majority of the licence training is to be conducted in a simulator. A shortage of qualified sim instructors will then be the issue.
I should also add that the QF Stage 1 testing is specifically designed to eliminate those who believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. |
Could QF offer the old guys who are about to retire, to subsidise their instructor training and use them. I'm not a pilot, but quite a few I have spoken to love to fly and maybe would like this as a part time gig.
I don't know how this works with the retirement age, but it is just one thought. QF seems to lack any lateral thinking. They also don't seem to want to have any happy employees, which how happy will a SO or FO be to go back to GA. |
QF aren't looking seriously at the MPL or at least that's their stated stance. To quote one well known person in QF who has an influence on such matters "doesn't save any time, doesn't save any money- in fact it's more expensive-, doesn't give a higher quality pilot, so why would we touch it".
Personally I reckon he's right on this one. |
Did you ask him how he arrived at those conclusions without having trained anyone to the proposed MPL standard? And then evaluated their performance over a period of time? I am particularly interested in the
doesn't give a higher quality pilot The MPL is not all sim time, as I am sure you are aware. There is some flying in a - gulp - real aircraft which will require at least some Flight Instructors. From my own experience the banging around the back of Bathurst that I did in a PA28 in order to log solo (command) time for my CPL didn't really prepare me for the multi-crew jet transport occupation that I now enjoy. |
There is some flying in a - gulp - real aircraft The fact is that with the MPL compared to the traditional license: It takes longer as you do more time The sims are more expensive than training aircraft The instructors are more expensive Given also that there will be plenty of holes to plug cadets now in mining charter :}:} aircraft or in QF regionals then I cannot see the point of an MPL as opposed to doing the way they always have THEN going into a Dash 8 or Metro. |
Quote: There are a number of pilots in GA who don't want to do the Second Officer role in QF and consequently apply to DJ, JQ, CX etc for First Officer positions. Sorry Going Boeing, but I am yet to meet anyone that fits that bill. Not wanting to be an SO in QF for a couple of years? What is wrong with people? |
I just love this site!
I think you will find, Neville, that if you do some more reading that it is 10 hrs solo. Care to provide some evidence for your assertion re costs? You can disagree all you like Fonz - it is just that I haven't met anyone that doesn't want to be an SO. That of course doesn't mean that they don't exist - I just haven't met one or two or three. Perhaps they are rare? Boring being an SO? Hardly. No more bored than the guy/girl sitting next to you on that trans-Pacific flight. Oh that is right - they get to actually land and take off the aircraft. 20 mins work in a 14 hr sector. Yeeehaaaa! Woopee! :D B.F.D. |
Boring?? Compared to flying with a student in the circuit that just wont f&^#ing listen to you??
But on a serious note can someone please advise if this means that all the instructors that are being hired at present as SO (Jan start date onwards) will be expected to do flight instruction? Regards |
I know of at least three pilots who don't want to be S/O's. One is going to CA, one Jester, one Virgin. None applied to QF as they didn't want to be long haul S/O's. It wouldn't phase me but it does phase many.
Leaving aside the industrial relations issues. Mixing long haul S/O with GA flying at, hopefully a well resourced and equiped, flying school doesn't sound like such a bad gig. |
Hey White Rat Wannabee....are you still out there?
I told you that RACWA Instructor Rating would come in handy one day.:E |
I know of at least three pilots who don't want to be S/O's. One is going to CA, one Jester, one Virgin. None applied to QF as they didn't want to be long haul S/O's. I disagree. I work with one experienced relatively young (30) guy who would not want to be an SO due to the boredom. I Know another guy who was an SO but quit due to the boredom. |
IT IS EASY!
All the flight training institutions have to do is pay MORE! MORE MONEY = MORE INSTRUCTORS |
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Beer Bong wins the prize. Is Qantas employing airline pilots or flight instructors? If it was me in Qantas and offered an instructing job, I'd jump at the opportunity. Home almost every night, maintain seniority and pay, weekends off, etc. And then Qantas would have to find another pilot to replace me. Qantas can't get instructors at 30K per year, so someone decides it would be a good idea to have "QF SO's/ex instructors sent back to GA." costing somewhere in the region of 100K per year each plus another 100K for a replacement. D'uh! What a stupid idea! Why would Qantas even think of putting SO's and FO's into instructing, when simply if they paid enough to hire existing GA instructors at 100K per year, they'd have their choice of an outstanding crop and wouldn't have to employ any of them. Hellooooooo! Earth to Qantas... |
Lowdown, re-read the previous posts. The plan is not to send existing S/O's (who can't be spared) back to instructing jobs - it is to employ existing instructors at S/O rates of pay to stop them leaving for other airlines and thus cause the pilot training system to implode. Obviously, these instructors would have to work for training organisations that are training pilots for Qantas.
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