Jet* and Japan..A Failure
 

No one in the Qantas Group appears to understand the Japanese Travel Market.
After attempting to crack the market with Australian Airlines the white flag was eventually hoisted.
Jet* is continuing to make the same mistakes.
The market is highly regulated with legislation in place to determine minimum pricing.
95% of travel in Japan is arranged through travel agents.They rely on commissions and incentives.
Jet*offers neither
Load factors,particularly from Nagoya,have been around50%..unsustainable.
Jet*will shortly withdraw from Nagoya and enter Tokyo.
This is an attempt to pick up expat travellers and backpackers from Europe.
The Japanese market also relates strongly to prestige..Jet* has none.
The Japanese market will not support a LCC.Those in the Qantas Group Marketing Department do not appear to have learnt anything.
Just like christianity this type of business will never catch on in Japan.
It is seen as a novel curiousity

Interesting... Just out of interest, why doesn't QF mainline keep control of Japanese flights? If the market relates well to prestige, shouldn't QF do quite well? Does anybody know how Qantas does on SYD/BNE/MEL flights to Japan?

Quite a contrast, I have found the Jet* services to Osaka/Kansai to have quite reasonable load factors.

And yet this is part of Japan.

It's all about Choices. :)

As I posted earlier this year...
All J* flights catered ex Cairns..Who pays? And why?
If the model works and the product delivers, this is a furphy. Unfortunately the Japanese market isn't interested, there are too many full service choices providing a real alternative..

European passengers disgruntled, being thrown on J* flights from Singapore, having thought they booked QF...

The sad part is AO did try, it didn't work, the market is sensitive to the rip off. The J Star model is flawed, but the creative accounting hides the true nature of this Dixon disaster..
An amazing thing happens when you keep trying the same thing that didn't work the last X times you tried it..:ugh:

You're wrong Ace on what Jetstar offer agents. Jetstar have two sales offices in Japan to service the groups and travel agents market. They do remunerate agents and there are special incentives with the largest agents. JQ have gone about trying to do as well as possible to make this market work. Sure there are some changes which will have to be made along the way, but the market is far from a writeoff.

eye_in_the_sky - yes it is all about choices - jetstar give you none - other carriers give you plenty of choices - for the same fare as jetstar with a full service carrier you can have a meal if you want (without paying extra) - if not its your choice! if you want a blanket you can have one (without paying extra) - its your choice. on international services you can have a drink without paying extra - its your choice!

Please Explain:Eye In The Sky
 

What is "a reasonable load Factor"?
For most airlines the breakeven load factor is around 70%.Get to 80% and you are making tons of cream.
Overall load factors on Jet* are nowhere near 60%.They are bleeding red ink.
As QF Insider suggests the losses are heavily masked.

ebt ...beg to differ
 

The Travel agencies are do not see Jet* as a prestige carrier,nor do their customers.
The Japanese traveller is very will informed.
They do not perceive Jet* well.
I spend a great deal of time in Japan and have yet to see any Jet* advertising.
This model will fail for the same reasons AO did.
Japanese travellers give their agents hell if the product falls below expectations.They are mindful of this when arranging bookings.
Believe me Jet*is on the nose.
Why else pull out of Nagoya?

Japan and QF Mainline
 

Load Factors ex Japan on QF Mainline are being hjammered by the exchange rate.
While J/C is pretty much full Y/C is running at around 55%
J/C is used by travellers originating in Europe as a means of securing a seat and avoiding SIN, BKK and HKG.
The service you receive in J/C on an Airbus 330/300 is superior to that of a jumbo.If local Japanese traffic was relied upon load factors in J/C would be around 50%.
The other Japanese ports..Osaka and Nagoya have never been serviced satisfactorily by QF.Old Equipment and poor scheduling being the main problems.
Qantas for too long took the Japanese market for granted and it is now paying the price.

It is simple to explain.

QF started J* as a tool to eventually rid it of the expensive workforce at QF.
Yes things at J* and QF will struggle until we see the evil plan succeed.

The 10 Year Plan

1/ Wind down QF and build up J*

2/ Close down QF sack all QF employees

3a/ Revamp J* as premium product & LCC with low cost employees

4/ Rename J* to QF with low cost employees to get Aussie population back onside.

Simple, it is happening right NOW! :oh: Just wait and see if Little Johnny gets back in (AWA's and no redundancy payments )

S_cct

Sadly, I can find no fault in short circuit's logic, nor in his time line, and I do believe I made pretty much the same comment somewhere here on D&G some time ago and was howled down by Keg and other QF insiders for "not knowing what I was talking about".

I really hope short circuit and I are wrong, but it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to imagine what some of the converations around Dikko and Margaret's conference table will have been on the subject of staff costs these last few years.

So...
 

Agree with most of what you say but...
why close down AO?
AO had a cost base of around 30% less than mainline.
Regardless,duopolies(JAL and QF)are never effective or efficient particularly for the traveller.

I think because J* is even cheaper than AO and they wanted J* to operate the AO routes and make even more money for Darth and Co.

J* is AO MK II and the whole concept is to get the cost base as low as they can get it.

AO did not get the cost base low enough or rather they thought of ideas after the start of AO that were even lower.When J* was up and running they could no longer see the need for AO.

They (Darth and friends) worked on the group that designed Howard's IR laws and they know what legislation they need to achieve these kind of work practices.

I understand Darth is no longer flavour of the month with new chairperson, and will be sitting out contract as a golden parachutey type thing. Needless to say, still getting payed bucketloads to screw everyone and ruin a company!

I think AO, as was Australian Asia (remember that one) was just to test the water on non competing routes and setup an infrastructure to introduce J*. AA was the first test that failed, J* worked, with support at first. It worked as now we move onto QF routes and beyond.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOPVdLcq79M


As I have posted just a moment ago on another thread, I bid a fond
bon voyage to all who were here in the god old days.
:{

Wrong
 

Australia Asia Airlines was set up to appease the Mainline Chinese Government who were not happy about QF flying into Taiwan.
Individuals who do the same work as others but for less remuneration have a Kangaroo loose in the top paddock.
My good old days are now...I am happy with my remuneration and associated conditions.
I do, however, have an exit strategy

Somehow the rising AUD has dampened the Japanese inbound tourist market and JQ is to blame! What if the exchange rate was the other way around?

Exchange Rate
 

The Exchange rate was favourable for the Japanese when AO was around.Didnt do much for their load factors

surfside6 I am always happy to be corrected and with thanks, (unless it

is a technical error) :O :} :ugh: :mad: (PS I love these little guys)

I have no idea what was going on those days, I must have a few loose

skippy’s loose up there, hop, hop, hop…. hick.. I fixed em and sent then

on their way back to Asia as they were red & white with Oz rego VH-OGA.

Australian Asian Airlines, C/O Cpt Allan Tyrell. How did he get that gig?

Where is he now? What happened to him & AAA.

Just another era that we may want to forget.

I agree that my pay is reasonable but conditions, support and future are

at an all time low. Hence the search for razor blades.

The first QF aircraft were 747-SP to fly in the " Aust Asia " callsign days. The flights were full. We used to call the tail signage Mr. Squiggle. My memory is that Ken Davenport was Chief Pilot

What a load of crap........

The JQ flights to Japan have been doing quite well with close to full loads a lot of the time....

Source of That Information
 

Talk to the groundstaff and you will find that what YOU have said is a load of crap.Better Still, talk to the crew.

Travelling Subload
 

Jet Star Reservations:"you want to go to Japan?Sure.When and where.We are wide open.
Full loads Huh ?
When NGO goes from the network print a retraction here on PPruNe Kavorka

Short Circuit

Regarding "your" ten year plan.

Can you explain why then, are Qantas mainline employing 500 pilots over the next 3 years only to make such employees redundant? Why bother with all the unnessary training costs?

Can you elaborate on the Jetstar plan to avoid the same fate as that happening to REX? The pilot shortage will not only be limited to Regional operators.

Why are cadets being placed at Qantas mainline & Qantas Link & not Jetstar Domestic or International and why is the mainline cadetship expanding?

Do you believe that a new QF CEO will embrace the two airline strategy to the same extent as GD?

Ace, not disagreeing that the Japanese market is based on prestige or that Jetstar is not perceived as a prestige carrier. At no point do they make that claim, and I did not insinuate that they were. I was merely pointing out that you were incorrect in your claim that they do not offer agents anything because it was factually incorrect.

I think the segment which Jetstar will target and eventually find success in is the younger Japanese market. Society in Japan has changed a lot and the youth of that market are becoming a lot more Wedst-centric and have now taken on leisure travel more like backpacking etc. If Jetstar can offer these people low fares to Australia then it will have a captive market. It won't happen overnight but it will probably will happen.

"Can you explain why then, are Qantas mainline employing 500 pilots over the next 3 years only to make such employees redundant? Why bother with all the unnessary training costs?"

Have you guys not yet figured out the obvious.

QF can attract applicants to the mainline operation with relative ease compared to the lower paying Jetstar but there is nothing preventing them from forcing mainline pilots across to operate on Jetstar terms.

QF will utilize the alterations to IR laws to give mainline pilots a choice, take a seat in an orange aircraft or dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. It will be the easiest way to rationalize the highly inefficient cockpit crew at QF without industrial action.

As the detailed analysis of the APA bid stated, there is substantial value in the Jetstar model.

Jetstar will be the growth engine.

Spot on Professor,

Qantas mainline does not have a requirement for 500 Pilots over the next 3 years. - it's the wider "Qantas Group" that needs to recruit in large numbers.

New aircraft deliveries are mostly replacements for existing mainline aircraft; there is very minimal growth of the mainline business.

I hope no one actually bought Dixon's line that "every mainline pilot will have an opportunity to upgrade in the next 5yrs". For these upgrade opportunities to exist in mainline, the airline would have to double in size.

Instead, the mainline product is languishing as all efforts are devoted to Jetstar, which is clearly where these career opportunities lie. :yuk:

Back to the issue.

Is it Jetstar or is it:

1. Over 100yen to the dollar
2. Japanese package rip-offs - over inflated accom costs, Japanese owned tour operators and agents in Cairns, Japanese owned "shopping" tours in Cairns.

Perhaps the humble Japanese tourist is waking up to these rip-offs and going elsewhere!

As for the QF/J* debate, remember that QF has given poor service to the Japanese market for years. Old equipment (747 classics) and the failure of the all economy Australian Airlines has seen this market in decline for years.

Can J* turn it around? Unlikely!

The more things change the more they stay the same. Qantas and JQ are so arrogant they are incapable of learning lessons from the past. (In JQ's case this also applies to safety, but that is another thread)

The Original source of the data below is the Australian Bureau of Statistics, via Tourism Australia. It is circa 2000.

Professor

So let me get this right, Jet* will be needing crews to cater for growth or parking aircraft. They tell the QF guys see you later, or go drive an orange coloured aircraft. QF guys decline, cause they know Jet* are needing crew & that better T & C are available elsewhere.

Isn't that the reality of the situation?

Nagoya?
 

There are few reference made in this thread re JQ pulling out of Nagoya.

Where has this info/rumour come from?

Can anyone confirm or is it pure speculation about JQ again?

Another point is that Jet* simply is not cheaper than other airlines, yes there are occasional cheapies but your still looking at around 1500-1700 return on Jet*. Malaysian and Korean, Thai and China Airlines etc. beat them hands down almost everytime, and it gives Japanese an opportunity to stop off in one of these countries on the way which are gaining popularity in the Japanese market.

Combined with this QF have treated the market badly in the past decade as another poster alluded to(the oldest crappiest equipment), then pulled out of everywhere except Tokyo to put in this new entity Australian which was then pulled and now Jet* comes in. Everyone in Japan knows the Qantas brands but the last 2 have completely confused them they don't know where they stand.

I know a few locals in the Japanese travel market and while everyone's $hit stinks Jet* is definitely in the rapidly gaining hate market for Japanese travellers.

I have predicted this around 6 months or more ago, and it is unfolding exactly as expected. Jet* is bleeding on the Japanese routes, maybe they will justify it to take over the Narita run, but if they do they will stuff the whole market.

Caution - QF will not ask politely.

Some QF pilots may leave but many will accept the upgrade.

Most will realize that the only option will be O/S.

Angle Of Attack
 

Agree 1000%
Once Nagoya is removed from the Jet*Network the A/C will then be used to service NRT......further stuffing things up.

No-one has said that JQI are pulling out of NGO. However, they have just dropped a service ex CNS now making it 4x weekly compared to daily and sometimes double daily that AO once flew.

Also many JQI ex CNS to NGO and KIX are operating as a triangular service which confirms loads are bad.

Also, AO never had bad loads on Japan. Always full. Except during SARS.

Not true; AO triangulated FUK and KIX during the slow season, then pulled out of FUK eventually due poor yield (not loads)

Jqi Ngo
 

My wife was on the NGO flight the other day...Surrounded by ex-pat Japanese, all taking advantage of the thirty something dollar airfares to get back to Japan. The missus said the service was near non-existant. She will pobably go to NGO via Guam from now on, just as many others are doing now. Perhaps if QF had a once weekly service to NGO/KIX it would make things all better... NGO is becoming a "New Money" hub in Japan, with companies taking advantage of its central loation, and the flow on in wealth to the local population. The ex-pat Aussies in NGO/KIX tolerated AO, but they mostly go with CX or SQ now.

Jetstar Cairns-Japan
 

Jetstar averages around 100 pax per flight into Cairns from Osaka/Nagoya. When AO operated the flights average load was around 200. As I have mentioned on several occasions, the Japanese will not cop Jetstar. When AO was operating an average of about 1000 pax arrived per day on 4 flights from Japan (2 operated by QF) and 1 from SIN. That number is down to 600 arrivals per day. The Narita flights operated by QF are always well patronised, the others operated by Jetstar, from my observations, are a disaster.

:uhoh: the number of times we hear the J* flights to Japan climb straight to FL380 / FL400 departing Cairns would indicate poor loads....
Just think of the fuel they're saving compared to the QF/AO services though:}:rolleyes::mad: