Bong,

and leave all pilots, especially those who speak their mind (quite often for the betterment of the organisation) wide open to abuse, duress and intimidation in the form of holding back of commands and other unpleasant, unjustified consequences just because you don't suck up to the boss, buy his wife a drink at the company Christmas party or bend over and take it up the choof.

Seniority may not be to our complete advantage at the moment but then with the pilot shortage that is about to crash onto CEO's desks, pay won't be a problem either. Let's not throw away in a whim something that has served the pilot fraternity well for many years.

Ralph

so kill seniority,

what are you going to do about the F/O's... your post suggest that the Captains can change jobs at will, and, well WTF, the guy in the RHS, he is just there and can stay in the RHS..

So how does that let an airline plan for the future when Captains, are to old, suddenly don't have a medical, retire, etc?.

And how does an F/O plan for his future when his seniority means "jack" because some Captain has the thought pattern that loyalty means nothing and chases Airlines for cash, lifestyle or whatever.

DEC is ok when it is needed, ie start up etc, but your comments rank of thought patterns some 30 years ago. (GOD springs to mind).

In closing.... I hope you have posted a wind up, if it was it was a good one, you got me.:), but my arguement still stands.

Regards

Seniority is a "two edged sword"
 

As Bloggs said, it protects pilots from
It also protects the airlines from large scale migration of pilots seeking greener pastures. Training costs for pilots are very high but the time needed to train a replacement is also a very significant factor. Airline managers understand this and the majority are happy to keep seniority in place and thus have a stable group of pilot employees.

yes but given that now Virgin, Jetstar, Tiger, NJS and some regionals expect the PILOT to pay for their own training then that reason has lost its validity surely?
Line training has only a small cost to an airline in that they pay a training Captain more than a Line Captain.

Track Coastal

But on the other hand, all Air Force pilots face being ordered into a situation where there life could be terminated abruptly and violently. For that, they have my respect, if for no other reason than their first concern in life isn't pay and conditions. They often live in conditions that most airline pilots would gag at.

More to the point, you don't have to be a civilian pilot to comment intelligently on civil flying matters. Most of the issues being raised here have nothing to do with flying anyway, and any half-intelligent pilot could argue the pros and cons.

Far too many are suggesting "all out, bruvvers" without really thinking it through.

Concerning the '89ers, the majority either ended up flying elsewhere (lots and lots ended up in Europe), or they did other things. Only a few, relatively speaking, got back into Aussie airlines. Many of the ones flying in Europe were broken men - once they realised what they had sacrificed for what turned out to be a completely wasted action.

Nobody thinks NJS pilots should have to endure erosion of their T & C's, the only bone of contention is how they should solve their problems. I suspect that the ones in favour of any form of strike action are the ones with the shortest memories.

Not that any of this will have any effect on what eventually happens...

Absolutely not a wind-up.
 

Nope, I'm dead serious.

If seniority was dropped as the sole promotional criteria there would be benefits to both the aviation industry and the profession.

The industry would benefit in that as expansion in a company occurred, they could get qualified, experienced people with ease. This would be particularly pertinent if the company was moving to a high performance type or into a different sphere of operations. People with proven experience would be used to ensure that the new operation was set up and a proper operational culture instilled from day one. Being able to import such people would also reduce cost to the company and support viability.

The profession would benefit as it would mean that our qualifications have greater portability. The ability to go to another company and retain a similar or better position means that your existing employer has to fight harder and offer better terms and conditions to retain staff. In the current environment, this should be pretty obvious and its applicability to the NJS situation, plain.

The statement that seniority 'protects' people who might speak out is rubbish; apparenty true in theory, wrong in pratice. I have witnessed during my 24 year career as a pilot FOMs who move goal posts and change promotional rules at a whim so as their "mates" could get a promotion over someone more qualified and dataly "senior". I have also seen pilots who didn't "Toe The Line" neatly side-stepped for promotion by similar means. I also know of a company in WA who employed some very experienced people into junior positions who were systematically bastardised when the they spoke out on safety or operational issues. Seniority didn't protect them and several left in disgust.

The truth of the matter, Square bear, is that companies will always try to promote from within. This is what will give FOs a break for a seat change. But not only that, there is nothing to stop an experienced FO being employed as a DEC at another company. World wide this practice occurs on virually every continent. It's nothing new. I suggest that you open your eyes and consider the possibilities..

(PS: I directly know people who, as experienced FOs, were given a DEC at the following companies: Ozjet, Easy-jet, Ryanair, Hong Kong Express, Viva Macau, Brittania, Orient-Thai and Blue Panorama. There are undoubtably many more. The companies in Oz that either should or will have need to employ DECs in the future are Skywest, Skippers, Network, SAW, REX, Eastern/QF Airlink and Air North).

Which hotels are you talking about? When I often had a beer with a visiting Herc crew, I saw QF crews using the same hotel. This is going back a decade so times may have changed but every Herc crew I knew that visited an Oz capital city didn't stay in the mess on base, they stayed in a Hotel in town. Like I said maybe times have changed. I'll not mention the tax free dollars and allowances on certain deployments that compensate for the 'risk' or hard lying. Remember QF flew into Dadsbag as well. On the other hand Caribou crews spend quite some time in tents in the field, comes with Army support, I don't think P-A-F drives a DHC4/CC08.

I won't denigrate military pilots in any way. I have tremendous respect for most I've met and the job they do. Some do it for free top quality training and to get experience up for QF and CX etc. Some for the altruistic reason of serving their country, "defending Autralia's interests" etc. Some for both-whatever floats their boat. But, they are not seriously qualified to comment from an experience perspective on Industrial Relations against an adversarial employer and strike action as a last resort.

Back to the topic: Industrial relations and NJS Pilots

Precisely what improvements are NJS pilots looking for? Pay increases in the order of what? Are the issues largely pay related or are they a mixture of pay, rosters, leave, general conditions, etc?

What is the target time frame for improving these conditions?

What advice would current NJS pilots have for future employees?

What we want!?
 

Long John. Of course there are a variety of views amongst the Pilots at NJS as to what we should be seeking, but the bottom line is simply to maintain previously agreed conditions and to at least receive the CPI in maintaining salary levels. We are not seeking a pay rise as such. NJS management has been introducing a new plan (which they developed in secrecy) which basically aims to reduce the cost of aircrew by charging them for training, discounting the CPI and cancelling previously agreed conditions. The start of this process was a dubious agreement which was struck (under a certain amount of duress) for the introduction of the Boeing 717 to NJS. Since then, our unbelievably gleeful management has set about making further changes by stealth, using different and less rewarding AWA's for each new employee hired. This has been accompanied by a breathtaking display of dishonesty and deviousness which has made any negotiations between pilots and management impossible. (A classic case of giving an inch and being taken a mile.) Best advice for prospective new employees is to either seek employment with a more honorable employer or await the outcome of the present dispute to see if NJS is worth joining.

Thanks flying fox. Appreciate your time to make a considered reply.

I appologise in advance for going slightly off topic, however I a chasing after Rick Burton's (TWU) email address. Can somebody please pm me if they have it.

Cheers
LCC

[email protected]

0417 914 108

According to some of my NJS sources quite a few pilots leaving the fold in the next few months to other companies here and overseas, potential experience drain coming up. Surely B scale can't last too long.

B scale will be around until aircraft get parked, that seems to be the management mentality...
8 pilots leaving over the next 8 weeks should prove interesting

where was the twu when i was down in oz ga........mate of mine tells me njs management has capitulated in most areas.....cpi payments have been made, no paying for endorsments, future cpi payments honoured,b scale cancelled except for qantas link locked in contract, pilots getting myer vouchers of between $100 - $200............aipa and afap better watch there backs....twu has kicked a lot of goals in this match.................

B Scale cencelled
 

Truth i think ya wrong there with ya b scale quote .It has not been canceled at all.Its been revised with abit of cpi which makes a b scaler about $300 better off each year. $300/yr WOW . I think my interst payments on the morgatge have gone up more than that !

wait a minute......am I understanding this correctly...NJS has a B scale???? A B scale on one of the lowest contracts around??? How much difference is there between the A and B scale?? And pilots accepted this B scale??? We are our own worst enemies:ugh:

I believe the B scale is 80% of the A scale, though it has annual payrises that result in it being equal to the A scale after five years. At least that was the story when the roadshow was travelling last year.

B scale about 12-15k less than A

Some recent NJ AWAs failed no disadvantage test!

There may be a higher deity after all........:E

Heard today the Jungle Jet in Perth is being dusted down for Friday.

What's the gen???? Is there going to be some action or is it more of the phoney war :confused: