WOG

Wasn't talking to you in particular, rather the more strident elements that contribute here...

So answer me this. Were the Ansett NZ pilots stupid? Or the '89ers? Or maybe they were just unlucky?

If you take "industrial action", whatever form it might take, you are walking a tightrope. Good luck with that.

Most people that go on strike - oh, sorry, take "industrial action" - have absolutely no idea what effect their actions have on a business. They are truly short-term in their outlook.

Ask any British coalminer.

Fenwicksgirl

And who made you do all that? Somebody holding a gun to your head? Wake up. You chose that path, now live with it. Just because you had to study a bit, the world owes you a living? Grow up.

The miner may not have to do the checks, but he does have to work in conditions that you probably couldn't handle, taking risks that you wouldn't want to. He, too, knows what he signed up for. In many ways, he is far more deserving of his reward than feckless whingers like you.

lowerlobe

Oh yeah. Right. Of course it is that simple...

not.

agreed:ok:

Remoak, I agree that "industrial action" is not an especially constructive way to reach agreement. My question would be what other recourse do you have when you have used all other avenues to no avail?

I wasn't around the industry in 89 and wasn't directly involved in Ansett so I can't really comment on that. What I would say though is, if you have a fair enough case there should be some sort of independent judgement who can sort this stuff before it gets destructive.

NJ pilots will do what they think is best, knowing full well the outcomes of their call. They seem like a pretty frustrated bunch and they understand the only way they'll acheive some sort of acceptable outcome is if they hang together and don't destroy the company. They like their jobs which is why they are trying to get decent conditions. It would seem dialogue would go some way in solving this, that and the doom and gloom to not be played up so much. The politics of fear raises its ugly head again.

remoak...You did not answer my question.

Why would the consortium want to borrow billions to buy the company if the margins and yields were not there or decreasing?

Why did the company make a record profit and by the looks of it an even larger one next year if the margins and yields were not there?

Yes Remoak, this will effect those mentioned, however I believe those groups are also in dispute with the management about the company Future Horizons plan, and are 100% behind the PG.:ok:

why oh why
 

Remoak.
What do you say to the miners who go on strike??? How about all those Chinese miners hey, why should they strike and whinge to their companies?? You would argue that they should be happy with their lot, because think of all those slum dwellers in India...and so on and so on. When do the workers of the world in your eyes have the right to stand up and say enough is enough. Why should the big wigs get all the profits, why should all the workers have to pay??? To stand up to these people is in your eyes whinging and that we should not put our companies out.
Are you a full paying member of the communist party, because that is what you are advocating!!

protected action
 

Well the decision to apply for a secrete ballot was over whelming and rightly so ,they did not have much choice .it is the only thing left for workers to do.However there are no garantee in this business with 3rd parties being able to  stick there shrek like noses in in there rights to even hold the ballot ..But the pressure is on the Bosses and the fear of the unknown, that  is what the TWU has up its sleve.They are packing there bags and are meeting the TWU as early as next week to try to settle the matter or more so to prevent any kind of action and more so no more bad press .

Bravo Zulu's, Hoffer and the TWU ( your spelling still sucks :) ).

After this the TWU should have an information night at a local pub, suggest a Friday night 6-7pm. Get up and tell the rest of the infidels what you are offering.

No doubt some of the staff from the "other operators" would be interested to see what you can do for them.

Sorry about the spelling but ya get the drift

Fenwicksgirl,

Im one of those fu%$ing miners, undeserving lowlife pricks we are who are well beneath your highness.

How DARE we get paid a decent wage for working away from our families for two thirds of the year, breathing in all that fine silica/asbestosis air particles and red dust, missing all your kids birthdays, sports carnivals, wedding anniversaries etc etc etc.

Do you get breathtested everyday?

How about drug tested regularly?

And how do you know we dont get tested on the machines?

Do you work 14 days straight 13 hours a day?

Do you think we enjoy all of the above?

I tell you something, if i had a choice between getting paid 95 000+ doing what i do now, and zooming around the skies like you do with a smile on my face ENJOYING my job getting paid 75 000+, i know what i would take.

But you know what, i CHOSE that lifestyle, just like you CHOSE yours.

So stop bitching about how hard you've had it because hey, you've always got the choice to come and join me!

Now enjoy your cocktails in Kowloon tonight while i enjoy my............

UFO
 

I respect the job you do, and I respect the choice you make. All your points are valid.
Unfortunate if this turns into a them and us argument. It is really about AWA v CA and poor conditions.
I feel I have to point out that we, like you spend a hell of a long time away from home.
On average I spend around 20 days per month away. i.e. 10 over nights. Leaving home at around 4.30 am and arriving home 10-10.30 pm. work weeekends. The roster I am issued at the beginning of the month rarely reflects the actual days worked. Planning for anything is almost impossible. The only safe guards we have is that we can refuse to work on a day off if they give us less than 7 days notice, even then they apply pressure to do it for them and some guys feel obliged to help out.
So the sitting up there fglying around part is OK, but the 2 weeks off you get at home would be bloody nice as well. as for there are posts on here some where discussing the air we/you breathg in aircraft as well. Senate committee hearings and so on, its not all that good is the fact.:yuk:

60 mins covered itr a month or so ago as well.

RRENURP,

I'm sorry you feel that way. It is tarring everyone with the same brush.

Not all RAAFies at NJS are/were "disgusting individuals".

PAF- You come from a closed system in the RAAF, and your views of post RAAF life are overly simplistic.

Some of the problems with NJS stem not from a bunch of pilots joining then saying to the company - HEY WE WANT MORE, it is the opposite. NJS is regularly REDUCING pay and working conditons for those currently employed, and doing so by illegally forcing people to sign AWAs under threat of further pay cuts.

Why are you not using your PPE?:=

I didn't realise NJS flew to Hong Kong.:confused:

UFO
 

UFO, the people you see sitting up the pointy end of these machines didn't land there with a silver spoon still in the mouth. Usually this is nearing the pinnacle of a career.
Most start with an initial outlay of around $50k (try borrowing this off the bank with no job or assets). This is followed by at least 5 years of flying aircraft you would probably never set foot in. Flying in thunderstorms - no radar, 50 degree heat with no aircon, unrealistic deadlines etc. Usually in places away from family and friends for years earning jack s:mad:t while at the same time studying for the bigger licence. Sometimes with the missus and kids in toe.

The nice peice of china you see on the mantle piece was once a piece of dirt. :cool:

Think you summed us up earlier.(Dec'06)

Sorry, but strikes are sometimes necessary, as are the threat of strikes.

Yes, they are destructive to all concerned, but so what?

If two parties negotiate but cannot reach a settlement, then either the management withdraws the pay (ie fires everyone) or the workers withdraw their labor (strike or quit).

And if you think management is voluntarily going to give a larger slice of the pie to employees without some form of pressure then I have a bridge to sell you.

And for those who talk about AWA's, look up the meaning of the term "assymettry of bargaining power"

Whiskey Oscar Golf

I agree absolutely. I gave up a chance to return to NZ when Ansett NZ pilots went on strike and the management pilots were trying to recruit 146 drivers in Europe, because I wouldn't compromise their strike action - so as you can probably tell, I am not against industrial action per se. However... the Ansett pilots were all out of work shortly afterwards. In my opinion, they were poorly advised by a union that was just itching to make a stand - but the staff paid the price in the end.

My concern is that they WON'T do what they think is best, they will allow themselves to be persuaded by a union that may not have their best interests at heart (as has happened many times before).

lowelobe

Having been there, I can tell you that there are many, many reasons, ranging from tax advantages to asset-stripping to government or local body aid to pension funds to... well hopefully you get the picture...

Fenwicksgirl

You clearly know as little about politics as you do about anything else. What YOU are suggesting is communism, what you THINK I am suggesting is the reverse. Except that you haven't even managed to figure out what I am talking about yet. I really do hope that they never let you take command of aircraft, you would obviously have trouble working out which way is up and which way is down...

And you may want to research the difference between communism and socialism.

Sunfish

You are obviously trying to wind us up, because nobody could possibly say something that stupid intentionally... :rolleyes:

Remoak..You only partially answered my question and then only in an abstract way.

If the margins were not there I hardly doubt that an organisation would want to borrow around 80% of the total amount if they thought the business was not a good one or that it's potential to earn was decreasing.

Even if they had the intention of splitting the company up,they would have trouble selling parts if the margins and profits were on the downward slide.

Secondly,If the margins are decreasing then why did QF make a record profit.It also appears that next years profit will be even larger so the idea that the margins are decreasing does not seem to hold up.

UFO there is a bit more to it than just "zooming around the skies". Just as you point out its not fair for a pilot to judge his mine employee passenger the opposite is also true.

The NJS people are trying to make a living like all of us. They are not asking for much - just for people to sit down and negotiate in a fair manner. They have been ignored and a last resort the 'S' word has come out.

Having been in the industry for a while i can also point out that they are hardly snobs getting around in flash cars. Just everyday mums and dads trying to do their best for themselves and their families.

The old "you chose your career so now you should put up with anything and everything" that has popped up on this forum about a million times is a silly and lazy answer to a debate. Infact for each and every career you could say the same. Its actually human nature to want to improve conditions and situation and any company worth their salt will work with their employees in doing so.

Then there is the 'LEAVE' if you don't like it mentality. Well do you know what? People do and their are a few employers out their that are now clutching at straws trying to stop people doing just that as their entire experience base has just disappeared. Nothing to do with young kid that would have left for a jet job anyway, I'm talking about the blokes that have been there and done that and really were not interested in starting up learning new procedures and types.

And do you know what it all came down to? Not money but RESPECT.

Rant over. Good day.

You do have a choice UFO, for a mere 70-90K of that 95k or however much you earn, you can become a commercial pilot. After spending that 70-90K you can go and live in an outback community somewhere most people have never heard of ( or if really lucky, Karratha, Kunnunnara etc ) and earn 35-40K for maybe a year or 2 then go and work for someone like skippers ( whilst taking a pay cut to " further " your career ) and then in another 1-2 years you can apply to NJS, Virgin Blue, Jetstar or Qantas, if successful with any of those you could start earning between 60-100K, depending on which one, and you wonder why NJS pilots are bitching?
But my whole point is, if you want to zoom around the sky
with a smile on your face, you can, there is absolutely nothing stopping you ( don,t say edumucation, I scraped thru year 11 )
Oops, nearly forgot, a position with NJS, VB, Jetstar will COST you 15-35K, thats right you have to buy your way into a job.


If NJS is the pinnacle of a career, that is really sad :{

I can't remember whether it was the late 60's or early 70's but there was a huge strike in the mines at Mt Isa. Turns out that it would have cost management an enormous amount to stand people down while they went through an equipment upgrade. So, as the story goes, the strike was formented, no one was paid and the equipment was changed out and the workers were screwed a couple of weeks pay.

The reason I say this is that it almost appears that a strike is being encouraged at NJS.

And on a separate subject, in this case pilot seniority really works well for the managers by making it very difficult for senior crew to change jobs.