Certainly strike action should be looked at as a last resort but I'm interested PAF in what action you think workers should take if there has not been any other alternative or result?

Pass-A- Frozo,

Since you think you know everything, what do you suggest pilots should do to improve their conditions?

So standing up for yourself is selfish is it?

I do think pilots in general are a selfish bunch, not because they work together as a team and try and make things better - but because they don't!!
Many pilots will work for free, will accept conditions that are below the award and the poverty level, wont stand up to to bosses that want them to fly pieces of **** or fly illegally, wont say anything when pilots are hired over the top, wont stand up for themselves in general because they don't want to affect 'their career'. And wont stand up and say no to paying for endos.

So I think pilots working together is a rare event and I applaud them in every way. Striking is one of very few things that workers can do which will make a company pay attention. What other suggestions do you have? I have a feeling that you, Pass A Frozo have been spoon fed all your life and never really had to fight for much .

Any points on why working to rule isn't the better way to go.
Pass a fronzo makes a good industrial point.

Tread carefully.

PAF seems to forget that labour was in power in 1989 when INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS were used as a means to created a so called solution to the Pilots disputation with their Employers.
I have dined in that restaurant in Kalbarri, extreme views such as that were the reason the matter was the watershed for the whole mess the labour market is in today.
There were two sides to that one as there are two sides to this. It is a matter of record that NJ are in breach of the AWA in existance, needs to be sorted.
Drawing the "we are tired of arguing so safety is at risk" is a rather long bow to draw, however the unresolved matters are a distraction from the real task of operating any business from both sides of the coin.
So many employers have had the run of things fo so long in the Aviation world, the lean, mean approach may have been appropriate to control conditions, NOT SO NOW. The consultative and co-operative approach from all sides will see those companies go on, the others will not survive the next year or so.
There are 100's of Pilot vacancies in Australia and indeed the world at the moment, employers will have to compete for the limited supply available.
The old strike way is in reality a no brainer these days, vote with your feet, you may change domiciles, even seats in the cockpit, but you will eat each night and sod the non negotiator Companies.
1200 people did it before in Aviation and it was the way to go, all those who blame that process for their demise are hiding behind an inability to react to the forces of the day.
:ok::ok:

PAF, do you have a mortgage and children in private school ?.

How do you both negotiate with a company that is presently unwilling to negotiate and still pay the bills ?.

Your statements are very very ignorant of real world forces, whilst striking in this case has not been the initial approach to solving an issue, it certainly is one of the step on they way to changing an arrogant and unapproachable employer, remember Patricks Stevedores?.

Fortunately the Pilots being spoken of here have a pretty good level of respect for each other.

If you can come up with a better idea that has a positive outcome, we're all ears, otherwise tell your story walking.

PAF as I said a strike is a last resort after all other avenues have been exhausted.

With most things in life sometimes it gets to a point when you have no alternative.

Your suggestion to quit is something that employers would like as it really achieves nothing except to maintain the status quo or worse if your conditions are deteriorating.

If we follow your idea then we would still be working 17 hours a day.However with unionism or collective bargaining there have been innumerable benefits in working conditions.

If I remember you are in the military.If that is so then would you suggest a course of action that we walk away from every conflict with our hands in the air and quit?

Every dog has his day... strike or no strike labour liberal whatever.

What goes around comes around and employers that treat employees with respect will in the end retain staff.

This game will be one by those that can retain staff.
Takes a lot to train new comers. Only takes 5 minutes to "QUIT".

LL that military analogy is just ridiculous.

Otherwise a good debate. Unfortunately the shortage isn't severe enough for them to all be able to quit and find another job so easily. But then look at what's happening at Rex...

How bad are the conditions at Qlink? Any truth in the statement that NJS are breaching the AWA?

Maybe QUIT is a bit strong.

Shall we say, "review the situation and consider a more appropriate professional position"

I may be confused between AWA and Individual, really don't care for a definition discussion. I have been on Individual Contracts since '89, some being identical to between 15 and 39 others at the same place.
I signed, when in two cases they didn't hold their end of it, I took the above option.
I wish ALL parties a measure of success in the NJ mess, many previous peers and associates are involved.
There are close to 20 vacancies in another very similar Operator in Perth at the moment which was my perhaps obscure point.
I shall stumble aong, Simulating my way around the various and diverse Cultures and Companies who are considerate enough to use my current employer as a provider of Training.

:ok:

No completely wrong....As in any conflict the party that feels it has more to lose will lose.In other words the party with the most power will win and that is why collective bargaining is the only way for workers to negotiate with an employer.Especially with a large employer as an airline.

By the way if you think the Libs are more effective at the economy why are the interest rates going up in an election year?

If they were in control of the economy the last thing that would happen is for the interest rates to go up before an election.Howard has been very lucky as has Darth...up to now.

By the way Roger Copy Ta..I don't share your thoughts with my analogy.PAF has suggested that if you don't like your situation then you can always quit...

With that sort of thinking marriages for a start would be very temporary.

Don't make eye contact folks and keep walking.

LOL I had a laugh! PAF is reminding me of the sinking Johnny Howard teams deperate last gasps of power! Yay keep it up mate!!

If I am pi$$ed off with an employer quiting is the easy way out, I will Strike and make them bleed mate, with every ounce because I CAN! Whether its legal or not just rub it in and put salt on top! Well live in a democracy and when people are fed up they will make them BLEED! And you can carp on about "Oh its not within this law or that law!! " but goddam if everyone acted within the laws of their governments throughout the last few centuries imagine where we would be now!! Think about it wet ears!! Without workers the world population would die! Without companies we would still live!

Probably youll say "Oh well I welcome a debate about economics 101 "etc, but WTF if i want to strike I will and there is nothing you or your big business chums can do about it. Think about IT!

Pas A Frozo
 

Give it a rest buddy.
If NJS can't afford to pay its' pilots then they shouldn't be in business. They "negotiated" the contract terms with QF for the 717's and basically either got their maths wrong or were undercutting everyone else to get the contract. Why should everyone else (i.e. the Pilot/FA group) KEEP HAVING TO PAY for this mismanagement. Why don't the mismanagers take a pay cut for their role in this whole sorry affair. Why should the Pilots/FA's Give A Rat's about Kalbarri. If they go out on strike good on'em. More power to them. Why should any of us be beholden to any organisations who really don't respect us as individuals, let alone as a group.
Getting shafted has been going on far too long and now its pay day. :E
BEST OF LUCK TO THE NJS CREW! :D

Can I suggest the guys/girls at NJS do up a 1 page letter to be given to all the pax if they do end taking industial action. It could explain the following but in much more customer friendly terms.


Cost of training
50K born by the pilot, plus study.


Salaries in GA
1st yr 25K
2nd yr 30K .....


After 5 yrs, get into NJS and earn .......... as 717 FO (insert amount here)


Many pax will be surprised that the pay structure on any mine flt in this country runs in this order.


Average Mine worker
Capt of the aircraft, 75% of the above
FO, half of the above
FA's, a fifth of the above.


PAF, when you are paid to train and don't have to pay a cent for it, does not take long to get a return on your personal investment does it.


The rest of us are expecting a return on our investment if we live to 148 if the the medical holds up.

PAF said
 

"Strike = Selfish = everyone hates you. "
You poor dear, such an inferiority complex..:ooh:

PAF

Don't want to quit my job - I love it, it is just pathetic that my 20yr old flat mate who has just finished an apprenticeship earns the same as I do.

He does not even work at the mines. If he did (and is planning to), he would be making double.

And no, I don't work for NJS, just a Saab driver wishing to be treated like a normal human being in Johhnys New Australis.

Frozo

You need to better edjumicate yourself before wishing unemployment on a group.

NJS pilots aren't taking strike action, they're going through the motions to take industrial action because their employer won't talk to them.

Pilots aren't looking to up the cost of a ticket because of a pay rise, they're looking to keep their current wage level and not go backwards. Never having received a real pay rise, the co has offered to remove the annual CPI adjustment in favour of a flat 2% pa, and want to tie the pilots in for 5 years!

They're looking at reasonable, negotiated bonds, instead of new hires having to agree to B Scale pay, plus fund part of their endorsement, plus be bonded for the whole lot. Hell, the co even charged the initial tranche of 717 pilots half the endorsement cost, promised the process wouldn't be extended, then tried to reneg.

How about pulling guys from their endorsement check briefing to harrangue them into signing an AWA or have their check cancelled.

Perhaps you are edjumicated, and really live in ADL, not SYD! :=

I must apologise, I was thinking that flying a Regional Airliner was a profession - obviously not, just an unskilled job, as shoiwn on my payslip.

And by the way, can you ask ya mate hoWARd when you see him next - where are those weapons of mass deception?

A quiet night in for Pass-A-Frozo... :rolleyes::hmm::oh:

PAF

Its obvious this topic has pushed a few of your buttons and Im just wondering when you will let up?

Its easy to be so opinionated when you are in the position you are in. Your military career while certainly not an easy one, is very different to the guys and girls that have struggled through their aviation career and for some after 10 or 15 years have finally made it to what should be a respectable job flying a 146 or 717. To then be treated the way they are by Cobham is nothing short of apauling. In my opinion and many others here they are only sticking up for some basic rights, and while it may not be yours we have all heard you opinion so drop it.

Until you have walked in their shoes leave your comments in your officers mess.