QFLINK drops minimums
 

Heard on the grape vine that they have dropped the minimums to 700tt and 250 multi command or co-pilot. Where will the future commands come from if they dont have the elusive 500 multi. Also how long is it before VB and J* follow.

The 500 multi in command requirement only applies to operators with a low capacity AOC. It is not applicable in the case of a high capacity AOC, in which case the command requirement reverts to those stipulated for the issue of a full ATPL - ie 250 hours with no requirement for it to be on multi engine aircraft.

So those pilots joining Qantaslink, with less tah 500 multi, will have to move on if they are to ever hold a command on RPT ops!

That makes sense?

Are the management of these companies even interested in retaining their professional staff?

Krusty Low capacity RPT refers to operators with Aircraft of 36 seats or less - Qlink (EAA & SSA) are not in this category.

MUNT - see CAO 82.3
Conditions on Air Operators' Certificates Authorising Regular Public Transport Operations in Other Than High Capacity Aircraft (includes Appendixes 1 to 5)
In appendix 4 there is the (some say obsolete) requirement for the pilot in command to have 500 hrs as PIC (or ICUS) in multi-engine aircraft under IFR rules.
This is in addition to anything required for an ATPL.
Other things listed there include 2000 TT, 50 PIC or ICUS on type.
Note this only applies to RPT other than High capacity (ie AC 36 seats or less)
so FRT CHTR etc do not have this requirement.

slice

Can you tell me if an F/O on the dash gets a P1 or P2 rating? If they get a P1, every time they operate the aircraft as pilot flying they log P1US or ICUS as it is called in Aus. It’s also worth pointing out you don’t need an ATPL to have a P1 rating and log ICUS. They would have the 500 PIC or ICUS in no time at all.

Yeah i heard the same thing on the new minimums.. mate of mine just got the job there and the interview panel told him bout the new mins...

Wonder how soon before REX follows!

slice, as long as the FO is command endorsed with a CIR, they can log ICUS and meet the 500 hour requirement in about 12 months.

I disagree with you Lancer
 

I don't believe logging ICUS is as easy as you say it is.
Take a look at the guidelines http://http://www.airservices.gov.au...ps/logbook.pdf
The operator must permit that person to fly the aircraft acting as ICUS.

CAR 5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or
her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as
pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as
pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence,
that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a
licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly
the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating
is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of
flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that
activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned.

404 - Well new FOs only get a Co-pilot rating on the Aircraft (I presume equivalent to P2) so as such they can't log ICUS but as originally pointed out it doesn't matter anyway as QLink are not a Low capacity AOC thus no need to worry about 500 hrs multi-engine. Company Ops manual

Lancer - true but I was just pointing out to MUNT that there is a requirement as it stands. Many have pointed out in past threads that this has become to be regarded as an obsolete requirement. Although as you point all the experience can be gained through ICUS, at least they have to do that before moving to command.

In the past they only issued a DHC-8 COPILOT endorsement. Not sure what the guys pay for now, hopefully COMMAND.

John Citizen beat me to it, the 'ICUS thing' could be an issue and it will be interesting to see how they get around it.

Lowering the experience level is not the answer when there are heaps of potential pilots who have been put off by the BYO endorement and QF psychometric and skills, think how insulting this must be for them.

I'm not going to bet my nuts this time but I reckon 'open day' sessions in the traditional hotspots for pilot talent would be the go(north west WA, NT, FNQ etc.). Go to the action, if only the management realised how tricky it is for a working pilot to get to the east coast for the current process. Considering tourist season is about to crank up, looks like QantasLink is going to miss out on a stack of good pilots, bummer.

slice, I stand corrected.

John Citizen, it is as easy as a command endorsement and the approval of the operator (whack it in the FAM). Plenty of operators in Oz practice this in normal operations (FO logs ICUS for sectors they fly), and its the way mainline do it. There is a common perception throughout the industry that ICUS is soley a command training tool, not so.

But before an operator allowed you to fly as ICUS, as well as the command endorsement and approval from the operator, I believe you would also need
to be recently proficiency "checked" as command (which is different to a co-pilot proficieny check).

Also to fly ICUS if you have not been checked to line as a captain, wouldn't then you only be able to be fly ICUS with a "training / Check and training captain" only ? The same way as when doing training for command and building up ICUS time.

As far as I am aware, to fly command, you need to be checked to line as command or flying ICUS with an "approved training captain".

Hoss, let's not forget about the 'HSC Requirement'.

Pity some guys' thousands of hours of flying is considered secondary to the HSC they didn't do 10 years ago.:hmm:

For sure, the HSC requirement should be removed in my opinion.

What does the HSC prove? Maybe it could show that a potential candidate is able to study but so does an ATPL. If the HSC was that important it would be a regulatory issue, but it's not.

I don't know when or why QantasLink made the HSC a requirement. I have a mate who was not able to apply to QantasLink due to it but thats alright he was snapped up by the competition and is now flying jets. There are many similar stories.

ICUS
 

John Citizen

There is no requirement for you to be checked to line in Command to log ICUS, mainly because you won't ever be on the line as PIC. The requirements for logging ICUS do not specify any additional requirements of the PIC. The PIC therefore doesn't need any check and training experience. There is also nothing stipulated about the seat the ICUS logger must be in, infact the only thing that really is said, is that the person logging ICUS must be co-pilot. Basically, the PIC experience ends at the endorsement.

This is how many airlines (particularly outside of Australia, where the ICUS deal is often the same), enable candidates to achieve their ATPL. Infact the inclusion of ICUS in ATPL hour requirements is evidence of the intention for its function outside of training. There is no recency requirements for logging ICUS either (as in recent PIC time on type).

There is wide confusion regarding this subject, and its mainly due to the lack of information in the law, leaving it hopelessly open to interpretation. As someone said before, it is not confined to the realms of training.:ok:

HossHoss, with all due respect, things have changed. You might only be 9 years older than me (judging by your profile age) but I think you would be hard pressed to find many professional pilots in their twenties these days who didn't finish school. I don't know ANYONE who didn't finish high school - friends (including plenty from outside aviation), family, etc.

Given that a large majority of QFLink applicants would be aged in their mid-late twenties, I doubt many would have not finished school. I think you'll find it is the norm these days to stay at school right up to Year 12, even for a lot of those doing apprenticeships.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it would rule out many applicants at all, but instead is just another tick in the box.

The HSC thing is a joke, just like the rest of mainlines screening process, over the next few years the minimums will drop and so will the requirements.

A mate of mine from school dropped out in Yr10...... he now flys a bus for a particular one star airline. Before you all jump up and down he did start with Oxley.... so that shows how long he has been in the system.

Dont think I am jealous about not working for the rat, I work 6 months a year, earn as much as a short haul captain, and have a life and friends outside of a cockpit that many of my mates who are in the roo club simply dont have.

$0.02

Yes the old HSC requirement is just a waste of time and you will see why when they drop it to attract more people to come and join them in their line of assulting bill****. I know someone who was there for 10yrs, and he was LHI & HOT approved and still didn't kill anyone and he didn't have the HSC either. But Qantas on the other hand told him that he NEEDED the HSC so he would have the intellingence to pass the PYSHCO testing and he passed that as well. But in true Qantas style he and many others had enough of all of the QF GOD selection and now most of these guys are flying things like B747-400's,
A330's, A340-600/300, A320/1.(Only about 90 - 120 from Eastern) It's only taken QF 10 years to relise that there is something wrong so when they pull their heads out of their arses they might have a very slim chance to hangon to the reigns before someone gets seriously hurt.:ugh:
Please guys if your going to cough up some money for endorsement have a good look at the A320 and B737 first because there plenty of jobs out there with the upgrade option after 2-3 years.:oh:

Guys gimme a break.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: HSC education is the basic standard. If you want to do alot of things these days you will need to at least of completed year 12. Trade apprenticeships these days often prefer year 12.

QF want people who have a certain level of academic achievement. You can do the bridging courses if required. It is not unreasonable for a major international airline to have such requirements. If you look at the USA you won't be a airline pilot over there unless to have University education as a minimum. You would also need that to fly freight over there too!
The best job you'll get in the USA with a year 12 diploma is probably a job a the local supermarket or at McDonalds!!

Year 12 is a minimum education standard and really a basic one at that. You won't find many other jobs based in a capital city that pays QF money where all you need is a HSC. Most jobs for that sort of money you will need many years of experience plus multiple degrees and post graduate qualifications. Every doctor and lawyer in Australia would have university level education yet not many of those would be seeing pay figures in the mid $100 000+

Either go and do a bridging course or shut up! Year 12 is not a unreasonable requirement.

Yes Neville your right, the HSC is a basic standard of education but I still don't understand what its got to do with flying an Aeroplane.


Regards

The Dog

Good luck in your next EBA negotiations, with beancounters and management, many of whom would have at least Bachelor Degrees, if not a Masters.

"Yeah we think we are worth more, but oh, you don't need a HSC to fly a Dash."

The 20yo bloke cleaning the toilets probably finished school, surely it's not much to ask of the pilots!!!

It is a ridiculous requirement for people who finished school 20+ years ago, especially if you do not take into account what they have achieved in the interim! If they were to look at each individual on their merits, that would be a more sensible approach!

QF and more important QF link have missed many pilots who would be ideally suited because of this requirement!

The Dog

Mate you might feel the urge to to do some trigonometry or recite some useless poems whilst doing a NDB app :}

the other 4 years of your high school education doesn't either...

MUNT
 

Well said... they want there candidates a little smarter and dedicated then ya average Joe!

Streuth, it looks like the HSC advocates must have been sick on the day the teacher taught comprehension:} .

Neville, this is simply about flying for QantasLink not whats going on in America or at the 'high end of town'. Sure, if a pilot presents for an interview with a HSC that would be good. It might not mean much but why limit the 'pilot pool'.

Transition, not all pilots joining QantasLink are in the age/experience demographic you speak of.

Picture this, back in the late eighties a fifteen year old kid decides he cant wait any longer to get his hands on an aeroplane and manages to get a job in the local hangar. He works hard and after a few years is well on his way to getting his licences both as an engineer and a pilot. By his early twenties he is working 'up north' and with those qualifications can pick up work anywhere. After many years he is now well known, regarded and has achieved heaps. He decides it would be nice to work for a regional airline and with about five times more experience in his logbook than the airline requires he figures he would stand a chance if interviewed. He trys to apply only to be told by some clerk just out of university trying to justify their job that he cant be considered until he obtains a HSC!

Although fictitous, if anybody thinks this guy still should not be considered for a regional airline job then they have serious 'mental problems'(thanks margaret);) .

Hoss - I guess in absolute terms what you say is perfectly valid but ultimately it is their train set as such and I am sure that they are aware of the effect the that the year 12 requirement has. As I understand it the year 12 requirement (in addition to the psychobabble tests) has only come about as the Qlink operations have become more subordinate to the larger empire as it were. I daresay the decision was made by someone further up the food chain than a clerk and it is my guess that this decision was made by someone in Qantas not Qantaslink.

I didn't think you could get Co-pilot endorsements in Australia any more, or was that one of those things that is often talked about but not acted on?

HSC???
 

Sometimes I wonder if some of the posters on Prune should go back to school for a while.
Some appear to be semi literate.
Flying also involves accurate verbal and written communication.

JC, if you read the reg you posted earlier the only requirements (summarising) for logging ICUS is at least a CPL, a command endorsement, a M/E CIR, and company approval. You're only under 'supervision', not instruction, so no requirement for a training pilot. :)

Transition

Thats what you pay the AFAP large amounts of loot for,Besides plenty of guys with the HSC still wouldn't know a good deal from a bad one .
So it all comes back to a status thing for QFLINK.

Regards The Dog

Hoss, that "fictitious" person of which you speak isn't so fictitous.........:{

Hoss,

What about the fictitious young fellow who is not only an A student at school, but a very succesful sportsman. He is not only a State Champion, but goes on to compete in a number of National Championships! In year 11 he finds both full time training (around six hours per day six days a week), plus schooling (six hours per day five days per week), become just to much and decides to concentrate on sport.

After a very succesful sporting career, which as I said earlier includes a State Championship, he decides to pursue his boyhood dream of aviation. After many trials and tribulations, he finally achieves that coveted licence! Then he heads north to find that elusive first job, which leads to the next and then the next, anyway you know how it goes! Finally he lands a job flying a turboprop and considers himself one of 'the lucky ones'. After a considerable stint at the one company, he now has over 6500 hours, most of which is in command on multi-crew aircraft, including some training experience!

In pursuit of a young lady, he sets off for greener pastures and applies to the regional in question. They are apparently, in 'desperate' need of pilots, so he approaches them directly only to be told... Anyway the young chap (at heart anyway), makes the move to be with his sweetheart and is welcomed with open arms at another reputable operator. Quickly becoming a functional member of the team, his skills show that he indeed does have what it takes, after all he was an A grade student...;)

NB: Of course this story is entirely fictitious!:ok:

Footnotes: While his grammar may be suspect at best, he has found that his vocabulary is the equal of many of his HSC graduate peers and his knowledge of physics, more than adequate for his chosen profession, that is of course if this person wasn't totally fictitious! ;)

Jawz - the 500 hour requirement only applies to Low capacity (not more than 36 seats) AOCs.

"They are apparently, in 'desperate' need of pilots, so he approaches them directly only to be told... "

It's funny isn't it? Not so long ago Sunnies and EAA had heaps of experienced guys on the books.
So forward to now and they lose a few to jets...Rather than give guys a carrot to stay, they hit the new ones with the $10k lump of wood. (That would have to be an accountant's idea.) :hmm:

So Hoss, do you have HSC? I know sunnies wasn't too worried about it until recently.
I agree with you, and it makes alot of sense. I guess the public would just expect us to 'have' HSC. Just like they probably expect that the FO has a reasonable level of experience. :}

I thought year 12 was for meeting girls and enjoying myself....So I completed year 12 but badly.


cheers

I suspect this is a discrimination issue.
Because it has been a requirement for the HSC, if they remove it, previous candidates without their HSC who were knocked back could complain.
I know this was a problem after Ansett collapsed, many pilots without their HSC who wanted to join qf had to go and do a bridging course in order to be considered.

WynSock, yes i have a HSC. I didn't pass and did all the wrong subjects but that useless piece of paper got me in!

I think you'll find the QantasLink Rate of Resignations(QRoR) at about 50 per annum and stable.

:)

Some of the guys in here (Hoss, HH etc.) should take a bow. You've done well. However, I'm afraid I stand with the others. It is perfectly reasonable for a reputable airline to expect those qualifications from applicants. However, considering HSCs weren't always as common as they are now, perhaps QL should accept other qualifications in its place??? e.g. Turbine time etc. I find it interesting to note that QL will drop the TT/Multi hour requirements to 700/250 BEFORE they will drop the HSC requirement. Clearly they do GENUINELY believe that this piece of paper is rather valuable!

QRoR...


hehe:}

I must submit that one to the international aviation acronym authority. AAA