QL to QF's new recruitment process
 

Well, it's a week since the announcement and the 'silence is deafening'. Being an optimist I believe this can be a very successful agreement and will provide positive results to both the pilot group and the airline in general.

For those who are wondering, an agreement has been reached between QF and QL to provide a recruitment process for pilots who have been employed for two years or more. The objective of the process is to allow QF acess to a number of quality candidates who are from a known source, conforming to the QF standard.

:)

Interesting. Perhaps QF is finally realising that the 'cost' of restricting those guys access to QF is costing them more than when those guys and gals leave and go elsewhere. Of course a group opportunity list is 'not possible' and yet it appears that the impending pilot shortage may be forcing a change of ideas about retention of crew. Congrats to the QL crew who want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire- albeit a better paying one.

It's about time something like this happened. Perhaps when you join the Rat you might start at QF Link and work your way through- surely this will produce a better "product" in the end.

hey hoss,

where was this announcment made?

hoss....can only be a good thing for QF in the end...they should really be looking at a group opportunity list however. But it's a good start.

Hoss,
I think it is a good thing, but in my opinion this arrangement serves two purposes;
1. To control some of the people leaving.
2. To place Qantas Cadets in Qantaslink.
I have no opinion on either but I feel the majority of crew will only look back as far as 2005, at the failed and flawed Jetstar process.
That would explain the silence.
Good luck on LOA.
Stoob.

I really can't imagine how this will change anything. I mean, they have access to these "quality candidates" already do they not, through applications already on file?

It all sounds like a bit of a smoke and mirrors job to me, cause they're **** scared that everyone will bail when VB start recruiting for the jungle jets.

Cynicism aside, The Jury is going to be out on this one for a while because mainline would not seem to be hiring right now anyway.

For those that would be interested it could be a small but usefull helping hand if management is to be taken at their word. From speaking to the guys in QL who have been around for some time, something very similar was done some years ago and very few guys managed to jump the fence although I do believe that there were some.

I would expect that the recruitment process is unchanged, only the minimum criteria for employment has changed. ie: waivering educational requirements etc in leiu of an observed performance history in QL.

So guys & gals will still have to jump thru the normal selection hoops.

(However, I have yet to have seen the change of policy & would be interested if someone could post it here)

I wouldnt expect any change to the recruitment process & candidates from QL would still be competing against non QF employees for S/O slots.

That competitive application versus other candidate thing.

There will never never ever be a group opportunity list!

When a QF mainline Captain retires, this results in about 5 subsequent mainline promotions. Adding say, QL & Jetstar to a group opportunity list would only increase the training requirements.

When AFAP was pushing for integration to Qantas Mainline, Strong stated he would sell off the subsidiaries before allowing integration/group opportunities. Nothing has changed since.

The only positive I see would be, making available a pool of candidates(whom would not have otherwise applied) should some pilot shortage occur. Maybe improving subsidiary engagement levels in the process.

Best of luck though to you guys & girls cause you deserve better in my opinion. Isn't there 296 slots comming up over the next 3 years at the big Q? When the A380 arrives anyway!

This is not my opinion as to how to manage subsidiary employees, just the observed facts.:8

Command, we have recieved the information on the QL intranet. It took most of us by surprise and is a nice way to start the new year.

QF is looking for a place to park their cadets.....
AIPA is looking for as much support from "Q" employees as possible to fight against privatisation....

Why not give those dash drivers a warm fuzzy feeling that they may be able to move across to mainline.

Will go the same way as the two Jetstar expressions of interest... No where..

The Townsville refueler told a friend of mine that even though Qantas recognises that the Eastern and Sunstate Pilots "are a know source, conforming to the Qantas Standard" will still have to apply just like everyone else and give Qantas permission to access relevant training, checking and recruitment records held by Eastern and Sunstate. If however the candidate has a 3 or above average for FT9's over the past 2 years an Exemption will be available in one of these 3 areas, Education, Skills testing, or Psychometric testing.... so much for a known source already conforming to the Qantas Standard.:)

Well at least it gives us a go.

Can second the fact that Mainline want to put cadets through QL... dunno specifics but I understand that was part of the deal. Good onya guys. Best of luck. Lets keep everyone moving up through the industry.

dreams turn into nightmares
 

dont get carried away,boys and girls from ql,sometimes dreams turn into nightmares.

just maybe due to the selection process and your one allowance for education,sych and so forth you actually get offered a position!

so lets start with the decision you then have to make

1.resign and start at the bottom year dot

2.be a s/o for the next five years minimum on any type that qf wants/the worst bid for flying rosters imagineable

3.staff travel back to 72y/j a retiree has more benefits

4.wax your moustache and dont ever call a capt by his first name or wear shorts on a layover in bkk and dont even talk to the cc

5. last but not least pay/which opens up a wide range of issues that i am sure you all can play along such as different pay scales.less is more qf attitude and just be thankful and kiss our shoes we offered you a position

so sounds too good to be true .i agree just a blatant ohh sh*t from the top on stopping transition to jungle jets and to try and at least stop dedicated professionals who for to long have been passed over from walking.
last but not least i am sure a dash has a better view and no long 11 hour boring flts stuck next to some toss bag who thinks his you know what doesnt stink cheers thats all folks

This whole stunt is nothing more than that.

As already stated it will go down the same road as the JQ EOI's. What a joke that was.

T&C Capts being told that "you are not suitable or uncompetitive" Yet any F/O that puts in a CV is getting the nod.

Asking QL guys/gals to jump through all these BS hoops AGAIN is nothing more than madness. Only after 2 yrs service can you be considered. Funny that after 2 yrs one has to do P&S and all the other BS again. Don't worry about the excellent FT9's and clean record and known quantity etc.

That counts for zippo!!!!!!!!!


If these people expect very qualified people to do all this nonsense again, lets set a precedent where all those in QF have to jump through the same hoops again shall we. I would love to see many of those "older experienced gentlemen"(and we know who they are) go through all this BS.

Many wouldn't even know what Psych and Skills was. Many of the old guard wouldn't even have attended yr 12, let alone passes in Maths,Physics,English,etc etc.

I'm not canning anyone, but if this is an Equal Opportunity organisation its only fair that EVERYBODY has to jump through the same hoops.

Because we all know that SHL know how to fly an aeroplane.

What a crock of sh1t.

why dont the cadets have the same criteria ?surly with their one fifty hours of untold experience & their two years as a s/o ,tuning radios and signing fuel chits they would pass. lets put it into perspective .

dash capt/f/o minimum 8000 hr /cadet 150hr and twin experience .as for the old blazer and tie /tea at five brigade they wouldnt be able to pass the potatoes

chemical ali - are you seriously suggesting that guys should turn down the offer to earn ~$140K (as second officers)...? Sure, they might not be flying the Dash 8 out to Dubbo, but I given the opportunity to swap rosters, and lifestyles, I know what I would rather be doing...
What promotional prospects do QantasLink pilots have beyond Dash 8 Captain? I'm not having a go at all of the boys & girls, but merely suggesting that there may yet be green grass on the other side of the fence (or at the very least access to the green grass which was previously denied).
Given the choice between Dash 8 captain in Sydney on ~$90K and S/O on the B744 in Sydney on ~$140K I know what I would choose...
Before anyone wades in with the argument that "No wonder Qantas is struggling as S/O's are so expensive" - consider that SIA crew their similar long haul flights with 2 x Captains & 2 x First Officers - at much greater expense than Qantas crewing complement... :\

I can assure you that SQ F/O's do not earn $140k AUD.

QF:......So Captain Dashing, you are 50 years old...... tell us why you want to join QF as a second officer.....
Captain Dashing: Well... the money.
QF: Thank you......NEXT.

I dont think Captain Dashing is not 50 years old and besides he resigned a few months ago for a DEFO B744 with KA, serious:ok: .

:)

Surely most people can see this for what it is; a lead into cadets entering qlink, and another half baked attempt at dangling a non existant carrot o try and retain existing crew.

Qlink management are finally getting concerned at the number of crew leaving, and more importantly the lack of qualified crew to replace them. So their solution: offer a crap deal that amounts to them basically saying
"we'll print out the application form for you, from there you're on your own", and trying to sell it as a great deal. Anyone who sticks around on the basis of this "agreement", has their head buried so far in the sand, they're ripe for a management slot.

The proof will be in the pudding I suppose, we'll wait and see how many prosper from this deal. Though given it's into the only airline in the region(not even the country) that isn't currently expanding at the moment, i expect we'll see some people turning blue from holding their breath!:D

It is official - Qantas cadets to be put online at Qantaslink.
Memo today advises first batch of six to start at the end of February.

There goes the QANTAS Cadet program then.:E

Why take a cadetship when you'll have to slave away for years at QL, then apply to go to the bottom of the ladder in QF.

Wont most people choose to stay out of the cadet show and do GA until they're ready to apply?

Well said ABX. Doing your time in GA is definately the best thing for a novice pilot. Learning to operate in the real world without the safety blanket of a more experienced captain holding your hand is like money in the bank.
You can always tell a cadet. Even if they have been around for a few years. Able to quote regs and certain paragraphs of the ops manual. But when it comes to flying a circling approach at the MDA in the crap at night into a ****e little strip with nothing but an NDB, forget it!!. You will here " jesus they didnt show us that at the academy".
There is nothing like flying in the middle of nowhere BY YOUR SELF to make a pilot grow up!!!
Go west young pilots!!
Cheers DM

Apparently they start in two months and will be with Qantaslink for two years. The announcement was made yesterday via a letter:ugh: No wonder the guys are jumping ship..............

With respect, what a crock. Keg? An apparently ignorant generalisation. If you were involved in any way in C&T at QF you'd be slightly more aware. I haven't come accross one cadet under par. In fact, generally speaking they are extemely proficient multicrew operators, no bad single pilot habbits. I wouldn't liken flying a chieftan to a 767. If you really ever flew with QF cadets DM, I think you'd be a little less bitter, and a little more educated.

Yes he did hoss mate....and good luck to the lucky three....:)

I don't want to get into this stupid debate about which avenue of training is better.
But this is one of the most stupid statements I have read. The decision making ethos and command qualities attained from buzzing around in a chieftain are exactly like the decision making making and command qualities required to fly any other aircraft. The Size makes no difference buddy.:cool:

Pod Break. To answer you question. Yes I have been involved in c&t both here and overseas. In no way have I stated that cadets are bad multi crew operators. Your view that they are "extemely proficient" is correct when all is going to script. Much ike some Asian operators o/s. If its on the green/pink line all is ok.The troubles usually begin when the work load increases. As most older operators know,sometimes to function as a "proficient " multi crew working as an unsupervised individual is required.Of course once the job is done then coming back together as a crew will always be needed. No matter what they drum into you, you just cant buy eperience or put an old head on young shoulders.

One of the common problems that line captains face with cadets is the increased workload associated with a inexperienced F/O. Obviously you dont need to be a cadet to fall into this catagory. The other problem associated with cadets is that they are taking up a seat in an airliner that JOE BLOGS has been busting a gut to get to. Doing the hard yards somewhere in AUS or O/S. For me there is nothing better than seeing the look on a pilots face when he checks out on a jet after years of trying hard in GA. It makes it worth while.

To illustrate my point Id remind you of the Perth 767 incident.
Im out of heres point is a valid one. Eastern is an Airline. Not a cresh!!
They are going to have their work cut out for them!!

Remember if all else fails look out side!!

Cheers DM

The offer is not career progression. Anyone who believes so is a fool. You still have to jump the hoops but if yer lucky you might get an exemption in ONE stage. If FT9's are so valuable why then do they STILL have to do a sim ride? You still have to compete with outsiders and if QL doesn't want you to go you're stuffed. Most people see it for what it really is. If something smells like a turd it usually is. And no amount of polish can make it shiny.
The cadets will already have their seniority number and career path mapped out before they join QL. QL is but a stepping stone through the group to the job they were hired for. Prospective QL-QF pilots will still be discriminated against by the boss, just as he did with the so-called Jetsar LOA. FO's are easy to replace. They pay for training.Anecdotal evidence is over 80% of captains are lookin for an out. Once QL lose their experienced blokes maybe they'll realise they can't control our lives.
Right on Baxter:ok:
Borghetti said there will never be a group opportunity list because its TOO EXPENSIVE. Does anyone honestly believe QL will let many go? In the end, you'll all be "uncompetitive".
Bring on the real career progression: Virgin Bush, Skywest, Dragonair, Cathay, HK Express etc. They want you.:ok:
Qantas doesn't.:yuk:

Apparently Qantas cadets have a Qantas Mainline seniority and when their time is up in Qantaslink they just slide across to Mainline with their already accumulated years of service where as the Qantaslink pilot has to resign give up the years of seniority and start at the bottom... in effect the captain who trained the cadet could be come junior to him/her if he was selected... interesting concept, it should really encourage the Qantaslink pilots to do an outstanding job training the cadits...

Ha. Single pilot operations and multicrew ops are light years apart in many, many aspects. I've been there, flown these aircraft. Decision making ethos? including numero uno? no. They are NOT exactly the same. Infact, as I was illuding to before, they differ to a large extent. I've spent eons of time explaining the decision making process' to highly competant chieftan 'captians' and i'll continue to do that until they don't all think that decision making is 'exactly like the decision making and command qualities to fly any other aircraft'. The size is of no consequence, you are correct, the operation is. Understand that and you will progress. This is the point i'm making.

OK DM. Let me just point out that at QF the 'overload' factor is constantly visited and revisited in simexs. Ok, to all those who say 'its not the real thing. It isn't. The only time i've experienced a real 'oh sh*t' situation, the 'cadet' has performed. I can therefore vouch for (generalising, obviously, as are a few others) cadets. The particular situation was by no means to script, and I'm pretty sure that makes me a reasonable judge. Cadets are taking up someone elses' seat? SO WHAT! Come on, its not as though others DESERVE it more. You are either good enough or you're not. Don't know which airline you work for, but at QF you don't just become an F/O because you've been there long enough.

Ive got to hand it to you PodBreak. Your very good at quoting other posts. Thats be side the point though. I reckon if you took a poll of experienced and probably less experienced captains they would mostly say the same thing. An experienced and seasoned F/O is basically a captain in waiting. Capable, efficient and trustworthy.
At some stage the graphs will cross over and your cadet will become the above. But until they do, they are carried. Its as simple as that. If QF cadets are some how able to jam 35 years of flying into their 20 year old heads then thats great!! Im yet to see it. Some of the petulant posts that weve seen on this thread really make me yearn for the old days when cricketers wore white, summers were hot, boys and girls kissed each other and not the same sex and pilots flew aeroplanes and actually got on!!. Remember the Bushies!!!

My trip around this fine country is only 18 months Away!!! Im busy logging ICUS on the Jaico!!!

Fly safe DM.

Ahhhh, at last, 200 hour pilots in the RH seat of a QL Dash. The Training Captains are gunna be knocking each other over, for the "privilage" to train them!

Strewth. I must have a bit to go. I was carried about August last year in Singapore. I'm not sure how they got me in the cab. I still don't remember getting to my room. I do remember the head ache the next day. Last time I go drinking with THAT skipper. :ok:

(You know I love ya JP!). :}

Without getting into how good or bad the Cadets are, but if QF and QL think its ok for a 200 hours F/O to fly the dash with upto 72 pax.
Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747? Or are they thinking that wouldn't be safe?

I have a rather philosophical view of this..neither for or against cadets, but if they put 200 hour guys and gals in the right seat of 73's, A320's etc in Europe and we don't see huge numbers of them crashing...well, the argument is really a moot point.

The only thing I will say is that some cadets need to be a little more humble.........

DM, I think we'll have to leave this at agreeing to disagree! :ok: