Hear hear PB.
I think the "limited action" ie work to rule is a good strategy. I've been through strikes (and a lock-out) and I wish work to rule had been considered more seriously then.
Strength through unity!
DC

Hmmm this is interesting!

Just a few points...

There is absolutely NO law that prevents a company from closing down and making it's workers redundant, and then another company offering them employment. That is all that MOR is talking about. It has been done before, and it will be done again.

I absolutely agree. Some people here need to wake up and smell the sewerage. He isn't against the Mt Cook pilots and he isn't "dissenting". He is simply pointing out the realities of the situation. If you don't want to listen, fine, but his points are sound. The way in which some of you get all abusive if somebody disagrees with the "accepted wisdom" is a terrible reflection of the entrenched attitudes in NZ aviation. Believe it or not, overseas experience is a real eye-opener... most Kiwi pilots who go overseas never see NZ aviation in the same way ever again. It's a different world when you play with the big boys.

No, it doesn't. He is talking about what MOR was talking about, namely setting up a situation where, should the pilots lose the fight, the company can set the agenda for the next ten years of negotiations. The Mt Cook pilots have put themselves in a position where they simply cannot back down without it costing them much more than what is under dispute. The company wants to weaken the unions to allow further cuts along the track.

Does this sound familiar? Ansett NZ? 89? How did they work out for the pilots?

It isn't being a "dissenter" or any other negative term when you point out the truth of the situation.

As MOR said... it is all about being smart, and picking your fights.

And before anyone has a go at me, I wholeheartedly support the Mt Cook pilots and would be happy to help them in their fight - I'd happily stand on a picket line with them, just tell me where and when.

[QUOTE=Raw Data]Hmmm this is interesting!
Just a few points...
There is absolutely NO law that prevents a company from closing down and making it's workers redundant, and then another company offering them employment. That is all that MOR is talking about. It has been done before, and it will be done again.

Raw Data.

a bit of light reading may be in order. May I suggest the ERA subpart 1 of part6A (effective Dec 2004). too large to reproduce here.
There is such a law.

Cheers:8

Well I did a bit of light reading...

It doesn't apply to what I wrote, which is the case where one company closes down and another takes over it's work. Subpart 6A only applies where, due to a restructure, a company elects to transfer work to another employer. It is not the same thing as one company closing down, and another taking over the work.

What the legislation is essentially talking about, is where a company chooses to sub work out to a contractor.

My point exactly

Air New Zealand is the employer, they own all the subsidiaries 100% what else needs to be explained?:ugh:

...in which case the legislation you refer to still doesn't apply. RD makes a valid point.

More to the point - and I don't know the answer to this - it really comes down to who the pilots work for. As Mt Cook is a wholly-owned subsidiary - in other words, a separate company which has the majority of its stock owned by a holding company (Air NZ in this case) - it could be argued that the pilots work for Mt Cook, not Air NZ. In addition, Mt Cook could be shut down by Air NZ if they decided it was uneconomic. If another wholly-owned subsidiary then offered the redundant crews jobs (ie Freedom Air/Zeal320), you would have a tough time applying subpart 6A as the relationship between the companies is not the same as that described by subpart 6A.

Anyway... none of that is the point, is it?

Situation normal then
 

This situation seems to revolve thru the link carriers every couple of years. The usual beat of the 'pilots pay' drums, the inevitable threat of closing the company down, re-opening under a new name, or getting one of the other link carriers to cover those routes. When I worked for Air Nelson, the management let it be known that if we didn't come to the table wrt pay talks, then there was a strong likelyhood that Mt Cook (can't you taste the irony) would take over the routes operated by us using ATR's, and we would all be out of a job, or at best, we would have to re-apply to Mt Cook for our jobs back. Even a cursory glance would have shown the fallacy of those "plans", but it certainly had a lot of the senior guys running for cover, more interested in keeping what they had than losing it all......:rolleyes: I believe Eagle had the same threat hung over their head when the horsefloats were coming, being told that they would head over to Airwork of all places. Apart from a dubious legal position, imagine the public outcry if air services were withdrawn, or at best seriously disrupted, while the company cans 150 odd pilots for what?
I struggle to understand why airline, or any management for that matter, cannot seem to grasp the very real value of staff morale, loyalty and most of all goodwill. Its not such a difficult thing to foster, surely.:ugh:
Hats off to the boys at Mt Cook, good on you guys for sticking up for yourselves, and the others that will follow you into the Chook, good luck to you all.
Nosey

I'd have to agree with that, it is a remarkably small thing that is being asked for by the pilots, in the overall scheme of things. It would be interesting to see how many ANZ execs routinely travel business class, and what the travel budget is for them.

I have worked in Europe, and I can echo what MOR said about long travel times to sims. I can remember Air Wisconsin crews travelling in from the US and going straight into the sim, same for some Air Zimbabwe guys, some Thais and even a few from AirBC in Canada. It wasn't unusual to see folk sleeping on the couches in the Woodford lounge. I don't think anybody should be expected to travel long distances and then go into the sim, but it is relatively common - even in the US, if you have to travel across the country to get to the simulator.

I just hope that, in sticking up for themselves, they don't inadvertently screw themselves.

JUST FISHING HERE!
 

Air NZ will not shut down MT Cook! It makes them good money and has the best OTP even while all this is going on. Not to mention the fact that MT Cook technically owns 65% of zeal320 (I stand to be corrected if not technically correct).

While all this is going on it seems to have slipped under the radar that Air NZ is parking up 2 744, hardly a company in a position to shut down its most profitable branch!:ugh:

Yes, but OTP does not included cancelled flights!!, and i querry MC being the most profitable, but yeah still more than our big brother

As far as ownership goes....The Mount Cook group is owned by NATIONAL AIRLINES COMPANY LIMITED, registered 20Dec1984. This is then owned by TEAL and Air NZ at a 50%share each. Sound confusing.

reckon you would have to be an idiot to figure it out:}

In '99 individuals were selected by the company for redundancy. They ranged from very senior to junior. The one common thread was that those who had made a stand in one way or another featured heavily amongst those laid off, be it work-to-rule or union negotiators. 7 years later those laid off and the remainder of the humans have good jobs including 30+ Captains in the Gulf, skippers in UK and Oz/NZ and highly paid blokes in the Fragrant Harbour. Point is stick to your principles and dont bow to the pressure. Those that did 7 years ago will be regarded with the same contempt for the remainder of their worthless lives as they were then.
Good luck.

Good old '50s kiwi union rhetoric.

Yes, I'm sure those guys really enjoyed the stress of being laid off, the subsequent months of no pay followed by having to uproot their families and move to the other side of the world in order to keep the wolf from the door. I wonder how many are now glad that it happened - I doubt that many are.

To label people "worthless" because they made a choice of conscience is petulant and childish, and reflects the very worst of our historical union culture. It isn't an easy decision if you have a family.

...and that MOR,is everything in a nutshell.....been there ,done that!!!..I believe some of you young fella,s need to go back through some of the posts on this thread and re-read them.......there is a lot of good info and well directed info.....some of you were still in "dads bags" or just out of them when MOR and I were working for a living.....dont take it personal,take it with a grain of salt,but dont disregard it....I personally think that the info that MOR and Raw data have portrayed to you is nothing more than an effort to educate you,...no cheap shots,no disrespect...but a genuine effort to help you understand the reality of aviation.....and if any of you feel KIWI is any different from the rest of the world,I,m afraid you are very mistaken......this does not detract from your concerns or your pro-active stance for NZ aviation...it is the total opposite...........open your minds boys,open your minds.....PB

It isn't an easy decision if you have a family.

This was the excuse trotted out by the dissenters then too. Dont forget those that did the right thing and had families. Toughen up.:*

I agree with MOR. Mack Tuck is just acting like the union goon that he probably is. That sort of thuggery is something I had hoped we had seen the last of.

Toughen up...? No, I don't think so. You need to grow up.

I remenber ther Ansett dispute well. I was flying the 146 in the UK at the time, and got a phone call in the middle of the night asking if I would like to come back to NZ on what was a very lucrative contract. At the time, I didn't know about the dispute but it seemed too good to be true, so I contacted NZALPA. They told me what was going on, but their attitude was very, very threatening and combative, threatening both me and my family if I came back. It was just plain nasty, and highly unprofessional.

I didn't come back, but it wasn't for that reason - it was because I don't believe in crossing picket lines, and I wanted to support the Ansett guys. However, the behaviour of some within the union was despicable, and morally, completely corrupt - much worse than anything Ansett did.

Anybody that uses such perjorative language to describe those who made a different choice to them, is morally bankrupt. Even more so those that like to use the "S" word in the same context.

I am actually amazed that the Woomerii allow such comments.

Well the non-union guys are coming out in force. I guess it wasnt you guys who made their own way home from Queenstown; perhaps you repositioned the a/c. This is not a bad thing as in any dispute it is important to identify who can be relied upon and who cant.:mad:

MT....be careful who you accuse mate!.....was flying in Alaska,got the call,went back to kiwi....Was I aware of the situation ...yes and no....sometimes you have to jump into the fire to see how hot it is......then promptly left...after "seeing" the situation for myself... ...many kiwis overseas got "that call".....me mate...I have never and will never cross a picket line,or work action......but as Raw Data put it...NZAlpa werent the most professional....PB

...just as it is important to identify who is likely to be a threat to you and your family for daring to disagree with a union line.

Such people are little more than petty thugs dressed up as pilots. Funny how people revert to the baser instincts when the pressure comes on. Interesting how people can turn on friends and colleagues over a industrial dispute. And you though the Taliban were a little over the top...

People who act like that have no place in professional aviation.

As it happens, I am a member of a pilots union, but not one that espouses the threat of intimidation in the way that the individual above does, or the way that NZALPA did (or perhaps more accurately, some of their staff).

If the only way that you can solve your problems is with violence or threats of violence, or intimidation or insults, you really don't have the moral character to be in charge of an aircraft... := := :yuk: :yuk:

When you have been through a dispute and had your former colleagues go behind your back and usurp any kind of collective influence you 'might have had' resulting in job loss leading to relocation of the entire family come back and talk to me; until then you have no idea what you are talking about.
An S word was mentioned a while ago so I have a question for you: Once crossed that line, how long will one carry that moniker?... For EVER:mad:

I have... not in this country, but I have. In my case, it all ended up in court.

In such a situation, you can either act with dignity, or you can become a thug. Your choice.

The only place that the "S" word exists forever, is in the bitter and twisted minds of those who choose to remember it. People who can't move on, and who are doomed to a lifetime of bitterness and regret.

Before, I just thought you were an over-agressive union goon, but now I just feel sorry for you.

Perhaps you should try educating the over-zealous youngsters on here about what actually happens when you start something you can't finish.

In none of my posts did I refer to violence or intimidation. That was was your little seed. However I think you are a loser; one who quite clearly sympathises with those people I never will. This is my last post on this subject.

No, you used veiled threats and insinuation. Standard union tactic.

RD.. whilst Ive agreed with most of of your points,I also would also make the point that when it comes to negotiation etc etc,things do get a little heated...things get said,tempers run high....be wary of the fact that not all digest these situations as you do,and to paste or paint everybody with the same brush because their rhetoric is a little "agro" is :ugh: .....I have to work with blokes that left a good airline job to go down to OZ to replace Ansett Airline crews(who have families )so that they might have a good time at their expense,knowing they would come back to the states,no penalties,but for a good time ,while a job action was going on......and to hear their excuses as to why they went is pitiful.....you talk of thuggery...it is not hard to feel that way when someone who doesn,t give a ****e about your well-being comes in from overseas and takes your job, then leaves 3 months later and doesnt give a crap.....America West Pilots,I have the list (as part of Ansett) did this and did it knowingly...I have had feelings like MT,S on sevearl occasions...:{

Over a few tinnies,I,m sure we could have a great chinwaggle,but mate,....there are some very ****ty people out there who have no scruples...and MT DOES HAVE A GOOD POINT...call them what you want,..the bottom line is they have no respect for themselves or for the industry

I absolutely agree... but my point is that a true professional will rise above that. The moment you act as they do, or use the threat of violence/intimidation/being called a "S", you are no better than them - you have descended to their level. Sadly, such behaviour is common south of the equator, and was certainly in evidence during the Ansett strike/lockout.

Having been through a couple of industrial actions, I understand the issues, but I believe it is imperative to maintain some level of dignity, and not jump to conclusions. It is not always obvious what is going on. Not everybody crosses a picket line without being compelled to do so, as we saw during the '89 dispute.

I'm sure you're right!

RD....point taken ,and will admit to being on both sides of the fence...and have learned the error in my ways...."young fella V,S ol fella"....I,m not without skeletons....an honest admission:(

Back to Mt Chook.....in the current sagarso,where do the these blokes stand?...is thuggery prevalent or do we have a well versed negotiating group at the helm able to control the lower ranking members to say....um err...stop them from burning mgts house,s down.

To err is human,to blame somebody,everybody else shows true mgt potential.

Love the banter chaps!

Anyway, Thurs 10th Aug is the Employment Relations Authority facilitation. We shall see..............

I hear you MT but PB-:D your balanced and sensible posts enhance this thread markebly.

You seem to suggest un-professionalism is a Union based phenomenon.

Interesting .... I have witnessed some of the most un-proffessional behaviour from non-Union types (High speed crz when not required, allowance claims when not entitled, extending duties based soley on additional payments, industrial discussions at inappropriate times, shocking conduct with the Flight attendants) ........... and so on.

And I'm not sure why!..... they certainly "talk the company talk" but they often dont "walk the talk" (not that managment would ever witness this) maybe they are attempting to re-empower themselves, what-ever .... there seems to be a culture of " getting one over" the company and their collegues buy not being seen to "make waves" or "standout".... does this make them ideal employees??

The frustrating thing is they garner grace and favor for this (in my opinion) un-proffesional conduct, and worst of all benefit from Union negotiations they havent contributed to and often tried to undermine ...........:uhoh:

Maybe we need to talk to their Mother's !!!!!!

On the other hand, Union members seem more inclined to "play by the rules"

As for the "S" word......... "Sycophant"............ :ok:

No, not at all. I did experience unprofessionalism with some NZALPA staff over the Ansett dispute, but my own union - BALPA - is extremely professional and very measured in their approach. They believe in negotiation, rather than threats and intimidation. Sadly, I think the NZ union is about 20 years behind the times.

The REALLY unprofessional ones are the pilots that take advantage of industrial disputes to feather their own nests. They effectively undermine the unions, and can remove the element of negotiation from the dispute. Ansett NZ were very, very keen to break the strike by importing pilots from overseas - I think it is to the credit of the pilots they contacted that few, if any, took up employment.

You'll get unprofessional behaviour from both union and non-union people, when it comes to line flying. I don't believe that the conduct of pilots on the line has anything to do with union membership. People are people are people... some have a reasonable moral framework, others are entirely self-centred. In the airline I worked for in the UK, union membership was very high, and I'm sure that the reason was that the union was seen as measured and responsible. They certainly helped me out a few times, so I will always support them, and by implication their brother unions, of which NZALPA is one.

What I will never support is the idea that people who do not agree with the union line should be subjected to abuse, intimidation, violence or any combination thereof. It never changes anything, and it has the potential to wreck lives... but mostly, it is just thuggery. Not something that professional pilot should ever indulge in, regardless of what they may have been through.

Was it the Ansett rep's applying the Borax or others ??

I think you may find things have changed a little at NZALPA. Some may say they are a bit soft now !!!... but I agree negotiation is preferable to war.

At the end of the day, in NZ one has the right to withdraw (or not) ones labour if required (never an enjoyable experience, which may explain the high emotions/threats at such times)
However if you belong to a union, ultimately you must be prepared to stand up for youself on the picket line or face the concessionary slide (see the current Oz situation) that will inevitably come.
The Company has the gold, you have the labour, both have what the other wants.... a balance will be found or all concerned will lose. Airline managment understand this better than anyone

I tend to think a "work to rule" is a waste of time as it can become messy.... induviduals can be targeted, and I'm not sure its a legal form of industrial action.

Guys,
I was one of the locked out Ansett NZ pilots, and it is an admirable thing that you did by declining a lucrative contract offered by an increasingly desperate company. From my colleagues and I....thank-you. I know many who did likewise, and some of their situations were such that the offered job would have been extremely tempting.
To the "dirty dozen" who did accept jobs during that period, the actions of those who chose not to, makes your actions even more despicable. I guess it emphasises the selfishness of those who epitimise the "s" word, in one of the only recent disputes where the term can be accurately used.
Whilst I am the first to admit fault on behalf of both the pilots and the company, outsiders should have stayed outside!
I am extremely disappointed that members or staff of "my" union acted in an unprofessional manner towards those who had the courtesy to enquire as to the situation when offered contracts. Hopefully we have progressed beyond such actions and as one of the pilots represented at the time, I apologise if my representatives caused offence.
I make no apology, however, for any actions towards the "dirty dozen". Their actions are indefenceable and I would like to think they are made to regret it for the rest of their carreers. Yes, I guess that sounds bitter and twisted, but I don't let it affect my life. Am I "over it".?...yeah, I've moved on and am happy with my position, and more importantly, I have no regrets....but I will NEVER have a beer and talk about the old times with one of those S...s:=

Pilots Union
 

How well is the pilots union acting for the Mount Cook pilots during this present industrial action? Presume they are acting for most of the pilots. Didn't know there was so much history and so many bitter and twisted people out there. Gosh the managers in airlines must be a real bunch of wallies.. They must be from another planet..

slamer.

I'm not really sure... it was just the guy I got put through to when I called NZALPA. Young and male.

Just out of interest, what happened to the website that had a list of those who crossed the line? It seems to have disappeared... anybody know?

Bonner Bylsma
Wally Pendray\Barry Miles
Gordon Flynn
Brian Whelan
Ray Pilbrow
Steve Ackalnd
steve ewan
dave palmer\
paul wright\gavin lee
these used to be oneof us. Many ore to be added, Hard as these were scabs but the rest were super scabs that came for our jobs.

Isn't Bonner Bylsma head pirate at Air National? And didn't Steve Ackland end up at JetConnect?

Maybe crime DOES pay...!!! ;)

Just keep pushing to see how far they will go.
That will be a really good idea.
Fell like you can't see the wood through the trees?

The S word may end up being 'suprise'

While we are naming undesirables..what ever happened to that Steve Mosen character at cityjet........Id certainly love to have words:yuk:

Now that the thread has well and truly drifted off, and names have been mentioned - Barry Miles' only "crime" was that he ended up being wrong. At least he stood up in a meeting and basically told everyone where he believed we were wrong and why he was walking away. In other words, he had the guts to reveal his convictions.:sad:

On the other hand that :mad: snake Bonne Bylsma was in the pocket of a corrupt and bankrupt (morally and otherwise) management, organising training for the super-scabs at the same time he was applauding the union negotiators for a job well done! Good work Bonne, you really sold everyone, even the other scabs, a dummy there. :yuk: If he has ended up at Air National then somehow, that seems fitting, though I can't quite think why.

No prizes for working out what "Acts bent as" is an anagram of.:ok:

However, I still believe that the main reason the wheels fell off the union wagon was that the quite uncontrollable "Wild" Wes was at the controls. Somebody should have tied him down, because "thinking smarter" was definitely not his modus operandi. :=

But the last laugh must surely rest with former CEO Kevin Dodderell who, fresh from his fraud conviction, was last heard from selling fertiliser.:O

Ya gotta love that.

Super scab
 

Mr Bylsma doesn't work at Air Nat anymore. Didn't quite fit in with the company culture. F#@king idjit. Should feel quite at home at emrats though.

Now where's my asprin gone?!!??