Lol... some of you guys need to get out more - like outside the little aviation backwater that is NZ! Many companies do this, with the added excitement of sim sessions that start at 0300 on your body clock. I can remember more than one time when I did six difficult winter sectors, straight into a hire car for a four hour drive to the sim, then six hours rest and up in the middle of the night for a check.

The airlines that punt their crews around in business class could probably be counted on one hand... maybe two.

I'm not saying you are wrong - you are quite right about the way crews SHOULD be treated - but it is increasingly rare these days. Mt Cook are simply following the international trend.

That's right, it is the way we SHOULD be treated. That's the whole point, trying not to let Ts & Cs get erroded to the state they're at in other parts of the aviation world. Look what's happening in Aus at the moment, we don't want that, and we won't accept it. Very few pilots arround the world have to travel so far for their sim training anyway.

If you compare the quality of life of a Mount Cook pilot, with someone from Easyjet or Ryanair, I think we know who comes out on top (even Money-wise when you factor everything in). There is a move for management to view pilots as an expendable part of the labour force, and treat them accordingly. That is what we must all resist. I see this as a test case. If things go too far down hill, I will have no problem changing careers.

Mor:
You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots. Well I suppose thats probably one of the reasons why you left. Kept on shafting others. := :=

Fly realy fast, ah come again. do you want to explain your logic reasoning there for us slower flying types?

Sums it up really.......if your'e a butt muncher:}

Fly Real Fast...mayby you need to use the freely available oxygen that the rest of use..otherwise your gonna keep coming out with braindead comments like that:8

If people think the comments above are the norm for pilots, certain companies are di*king you real hard. If you are accepting working conditions like that you are more of an idiot than your last post.

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. I have met up with plenty of crews at, say, FSC in Maastricht or BAe at Woodford who have just travelled 18-20 hours to get to the sim - in fact, most of them have. The only ones who haven't are the ones who live in the USA or Europe - but of course there are many airlines that aren't in either place.

Wakey wakey - pilots ARE an expendable part of the workforce, and will always be whilst there are more pilots than jobs. NZ airlines have been very slow to erode T's and C's compared to American or European airlines - how many US pilots have taken massive pay cuts in the last few years? You should be grateful that NZ pilots don't face what US pilots frequently do.

And as far as quality of life is concerned, I'd say Mt Cook wins hands-down.

I agree that you should resist it, I am merely pointing out that the world is moving in a different direction, and you shouldn't be surprised if the current situation turns out to be the tip of the iceberg.

fly real fast

A pity you are unable to read or comprehend what I said... so let me help you out with a little repeat of what I said:

Well if you ever get out in the real world, sonny, you will find out how wrong you are. Just keep those blinkers on, they obviously make you feel a whole lot happier... even the instructors at Cranfield know better.

MOR,

You can think it's a pissy backwater all you like, don't come swimming down here then. It's a Dunnunda forum and this is an issue which is affecting a lot of people down here at the moment. We are trying to NOT end up with the kinds of T's and C's you have already accepted long ago. How many posts have there been about pilots needing to stick together and support one another and then you come out trumpeting how hard you let a company give it to you. No wonder aviation is becoming less of a career and more of an ordinary job, sifting around stepping on anybody else in order to get your own ass ahead to get that "passenger jet job" to finally pay off your training and all the damn ratings you've bought. We do have 10pm-2am and 2-6am local time sim sessions and then the day ones when your body thinks it night anyway. I don't know of one person who can't notice whether they've have business class or coach travel after arriving at a hotel 22 hours after you left home.

Since you're in charge of world aviation MOR, why do Mount Cook pilots not deserve the same travel to sim standards as all other parts of the AIRNZ group? It's called negotiating in good faith. Why should we bend over at the lowest conditions offered by our employer? You seem to want us to grab our ankles at the first opportunity. How about sticking up for your collegues? I'd like to say I'd stick up for you all if you had REASONABLE claims in an employment dispute. That includes pilot unions representing large airlines, turbo-props and even the C Cat on his/her own down at the local aero club.

MOR,
As airslasher said....Loser:8

Slash
If you are looking to get Mount Cook pilots the same sim (i.e. non duty) travel as the AIRNZ group pilots, then it's called economy class. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when the B733 training was contracted to Ansett Aussie. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when training was done by Boeing in the States, United Airlines and with Air Canada. Also when AirNZ management pilots travel to any overseas meetings they only ever get economy without upgrades.

The only time pilots in the Air NZ group travel J class is flights associated with operational duty travel i.e. pilot is paxing to fly a service or return from a flight duty.

However if you think you can get it go for it, as it might tip the scales on the costs to get an ATR sim in NZ!

If the Mt Cook pilots stick together you will get there, Good Luck and fly safe

Maybe is has - ANZ have already ordered an ATR Mechtronix device for delivery mid 2007.

As to Airslasher's comment "2nd-3rd world city with recent bombings " BKK is probably one of the safest cities to be in and 2nd-3rd world. I don't think so.

Um,

The ANZ CEA I have in front of me says that if I travel to a Sim overseas then I travel In business, simple as that. Not a big ask from the NM fellas, I can't imagine why it is not a given considering the distance involved. MOR, you are either management, or a s%^B, I can't figure out which and I don't really care. If you look at the salary and conditions of an Australasian pilot, I think you will find they far less (when converted through the greenback and you have to do that to compare apples with apples) than the airline pilots in the mainline carriers in the states..........after their paydrop! If you are actually a pilot, do everyone a favour and resist the temptation to post utter crap on this forum, Cheers!:yuk:
NM guys, Stick to your guns. you are not asking for too much:ok:

Well the pejorative term is yours, I never called it that. I swim here because I live here.

Well actually the Ts & Cs I have worked under have almost all been better than Mt Cook - because I was a part of the pilot council that negotiated them - and if you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I support the efforts to keep the T's & C's that you have. All I am saying is that the worldwide trend is the other way, and that you will eventually lose. I am not saying that this is a good thing, I am simply pointing out the other side of the argument. Why can you people not read the thread before beating your chests?

One other thing that I will say, is that NZ aviation has a highly "unionised" mentality that is at odds with the majority of progressive airlines. Instead of digging your heels and and blindly battling these issues, you should take a more long-term view. If in fact your company has invested in a new sim, they have effectively done you a huge favour, and everything that you are whinging about will history as soon as the sim is delivered. But none of you oh-so-bolshy pilots have noticed that, have you? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Read what piontyendforward says, if he is correct then your argument just went down the gurgler.

Another idiot that can't read. See above.

And that is completely irrelevant. Ask a US pilot who had to sell his home because he couldn't afford the repayments after losing a large chunk of his salary. And in any case, you can't compare a Mt Cook pilot salary with a mainline US carrier. Maybe a (very) small regional carrier, but even it is dangerous comparison, as very few US regionals are as small as Mt Cook.

My good MOR:
If you're going to lie so blatently why should we even consider anything you say? I find the backwater derogatory. Many pilots stay in the NZ turbo-prop scene because they WANT to, not because they aren't good enough to leave as you imply with that comment. And then deride/tell them not to bother when they want to protect their jobs and those of future aircrew.

This Sim would only be useful in part, a 12 monthly trip to Bangkok would still be required. And it's not a done deal yet. I have bothered to read your posts MOR but when you state
that to me sums up how you have missed the point of anyone else with a view opposed to your own.

This is about future T's and C's for Cook pilots and others at Nelson and Eagle for that matter. What is not long term about it??? You have still not supplied a constructive alternative other than "shut up, give in, you guys have it all already." We don't want anymore - just don't believe when all things are considered with our company that we should be going backwards.

Pointy, I think that for any travel to sim over the 6ish hour mark then business class travel is the standard. And ZFT I'll stick with my 2nd/3rd world comment thanks-it's my impression of the place. Trying to lynch their PM a few months ago made me feel pretty good walking around the place too.

Valid post Slasher, Lucky MOR isn't negotiating for us. 2 dollar whanchai hooker comes to mind. Bangkok breed of course.

Please insert the coconut this time.....:mad:........ Ta

By the way, when is Fyfes court appearance. Hear it is some time next month..... Good luck Bro;)

TIFF

If you are going to quote me, do it properly. You used the word "pissing", I didn't. You are the one who is lying.

The term "backwater" in no way implies that NZ aviation is good or bad, simply that it is disconnected from the rest of the world and not representative of what goes on there. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of pilots, or the quality of anything else for that matter. You would be better off canning the 1950's union rhetoric, and actually reading what I wrote.

How very typical of a closed-minded kiwi attitude. Look at the rest of the world - if you do, you will see that many, many airlines have been down the road that Mt Cook is currently going down, and the result is always the same. You either adapt or die - and there are ways to win, but you are so blinkered that you will never see them.

I never said anything of the sort, in fact I have said exactly the reverse. I have now stated in three seperate posts that I support the cause of the Mt Cook pilots. You clearly HAVEN'T read what I have posted.

Anyway, you and your union buddies believe what you want. At least have the decency to READ and UNDERSTAND what I said, and maybe - just maybe - you could manage to respect a dissenting opinion. Probably not, though, you are far more interested in jumping to conclusions than arguing the points on their merits.

I actually used the word "pissy." Don't really want to argue english with you but as I said I took backwater as the pejorative term. No lying there.

Despite your consistent accusations I'm not a 'balls to the wall' staunch union man. I do however think it is the best way to go in matters such as these and support ALPA as my representation (and therefore my collegues) 100%.

That's good MOR, and I HAVE read that but the rest of your posts seem to contradict yourself. Again what do you suggest we do? What are these "ways to win" you speak of? I (admittedly grudgingly!:ok: ) respect your dissenting opinion. However, I still think that we have valid (and very minor in the financial scheme of things) claims and should stick to our guns. The inevitable result you prophesize MOR, will only become inevitable when we think 'f**k it' and throw in the towel.

Adapt? How? By increasing our sphinctal diameter? Many airlines have done it before? As I said previously with OUR circumstances and OUR company (yes OUR small, out of touch, backwater, close-minded, blinkered, isolated situation) we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

By the way, nice front page article in today's ODT too. Looking suspiciously like a story founded on information from company sources, half truths etc rampant throughout. :=

Not sure that it would be smart to discuss that on an open forum... I'm sure your management are reading this.

Not at all. Let's think back to another body of pilots that "stuck to their guns" around 1989, in a place not too far from here. What happened to them, and their lofty principles? Most of them ended up flying "rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong".

And then there was that other airline with a name beginning with "A", on our own fair shores. What happened to them again? And "their" airline?

You may think that you can beat your management, but the evidence is overwhelmingly the other way.

"Smart" beats "militant" every time.

No, by being smarter than your management. How hard could that be?

Yes but it isn't YOUR company. It belongs to shareholders who want to see maximum return and minimum cost. They aren't on your side. They are (essentially) the enemy.

But you are the only ones who do (apart from me of course). To your management and your shareholders, you are irritating primadonnas. Or do you think that they respect you?

Article from the OTG....
 

Action by pilots upsets travellers
By Dene Mackenzie Friday, 21st July 2006

Ongoing industrial action by some Mount Cook Airline pilots is causing frustration for Dunedin travellers as they find their flights cancelled and miss connections.

The Otago Daily Times was approached by travel agents complaining about the actions of the Mount Cook pilots on ATR flights between Dunedin and Christchurch.

It appeared the most popular flight for cancellation was the 10.05am service to Christchurch, which connected with the Singapore Air international flight.

The ODT was told pilots were phoning in sick at the last minute and that other pilots were not making themselves available as replacements.

Dunedin International Airport Ltd chief executive John McCall said yesterday’s 10.05am flight was cancelled and flights were being cancelled on a daily basis.

“Very rarely does a day go by without a flight being cancelled. We have had multiple flights cancelled for some reason or another.”

There was no pattern, with morning, afternoon and evening services all being cancelled at the last minute at various times, he said when contacted.

The airport company had been given no official reason for the cancellations, which were having a “huge disruptive impact” on travellers. The Christchurch-Dunedin services made up 47% of the airport’s capacity and to have that disrupted meant significant problems, Mr McCall said.

Otago Chamber of Commerce chief executive John Christie urged the airline to find a fast solution to the industrial action, as it was starting to hit business.

Missed international connections were a big issue for Dunedin businesspeople, he said.

To have a last-minute cancellation and a missed international connection was irritating, to say the least, Mr Christie said.

Dunedin travel agents Russell Duff, from VIP International Travel, and Vincent George, of Vincent George House of Travel, confirmed their clients were being disadvantaged, but paid tribute to the Air New Zealand staff at the airport who they said worked hard to rebook people on alternative flights.

Mr Duff said many flights were being cancelled with less than 24 notice. While every athours tempt was made to contact passengers, some would turn up at the airport to find their flights cancelled.

Crew sickness was the standard reason for the cancelled flights.

“This is clearly a ploy by pilots to make a point, but it is causing frustration within the industry.”

Mr George said there was probably no other way for the pilots to get their point across, but it was causing problems for their colleagues in the travel industry.

(cut and paste from the website; spelling and grammar nazi's contact ODT)

Surprise surprise! MOR makes a post and a thread turns to custard:ugh:

Honestly MOR we are all sick of hearing how it is overseas, we are all aware and appreciate what its like and have chosen to stay home for various reasons.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that the pilots are not technically asking for a pay rise mearly a CPI adjustment so they dont take a pay cut (again) for the next three years. Also travel to the sim, they do it in thier own time (to help the companies costs stay down, duty time ect) and all they ask for is an upgrade! Every other link operator has this clause for travel over 4 hours so how is it suddenly not good enough for the COOK pilots?

What this has all proved lately with working to rule ect is that companies (in NZ) struggle to operate an on time efficeint airline with little pax disrupts if the pilots withdraw the good will.:confused:

Good luck to all involved :ok:

HB

Yeah it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start...

Hypothetical question.
 

If I was a Manager (mangler) in a Company and I cost/spent/wasted one million dollars in an eight or nine month period to 'save' said Company a hundred thousand bucks would I keep my job?

Throw in destroying the goodwill and morale of the staff, creating friction and angst within the other business units and then finish it all of by distrupting thousands of clients and generally f-king everyone off...how would I go then...promotion maybe?

No; my ar$e would be on the street.

The conspiracy folk are right; if you know the secret handshake thats top work :uhoh:

"it's a real bastard when someone disagrees with the union line, isn't it?

People who refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, are doomed to repeat them. Maybe taking your head out of the sand would be a good start..."

Ok not sure what those comments have to do with mine! Didn't mention a union once me thinks:cool:

What I'm trying to point out is that what is been asked for is a pittance MOR someone whos in the know could point out to you that the pilot group is actualy taking allowance cuts ect in other areas!

As Kmagyoyo says for a little more than the GM's salary a year the company has lost millions fighting it:confused:

And like I keep saying, over and over and over again... I agree with you.

It's the big picture that you need to think about. Yes, it may have cost them millions, but any competent GM knows that when it comes to union disputes, getting your way is worth ten times the cost, when measured against future disputes. Ansett were willing to bet the farm on that, because the prize was so tempting. In the end, they were wrong, but everybody ended up unemployed. There is a lesson there...

Ok starting to understand your point MOR!

Question for you, say your at your current job earning $65K a year your manager says guess wot your staying on that for the next 6 years. Inflation is 3.5%. So for the next 6 years your quality of life is going to decrease because every day items are getting more expensive and your $ just don't go as far anymore.

WOULD YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU AND JEPORDISE YOUR FAMILY?

Thats all they are doing down there union or no union its not wright when the company is creaming it.:=

HB

Well, that depends. How much do you want to continue flying?

Of course we all know the answer to that one. Pilots are very highly motivated and are generally used to crap conditions before they get to the airlines. Managers know this, and exploit it in pay negotiations. They also know that such a course of action as the one you describe, in no way jeapordises anybodys' family... that is just emotional nonsense. The actual dollar amount is minimal, and in any case nobody knows what inflation will be next year.

One of the features of airline pay negotiations overseas - yes, I know you don't care about anything outside NZ, but hear me out - is that the pilots have to decide just how much they can afford to lose. Some pilots will bet the farm on that 3.5%, others will tighten their belts and be damn thankful that they actually have the flying job they fought so hard to get. Generally, the latter are in the majority and when push comes to shove, that is what will undermine any union negotiations.

You might not think that international trends matter, but the fact is that Air NZ looks overseas to identify trends that it can then exploit. They are an international airline, and they employ people from countries where these things are done very differently. If you want to ignore recent history, that's fine, but your employer will always be two steps ahead of you when it comes to pay negotiations. They are looking at a much bigger picture, and they know more than you do about their business.

Let me ask you another. How would you feel if Air NZ was to close down Mt Cook, transfer the assets to Freedom Air, and re-employ the crews on new T's and C's? And if, in so doing, they were to adopt a low-cost model (a real one), which meant that if you wanted your old job back, you would have to pay for your uniform, your car park, your crew meal, your medicals and licence renewal? You see, you think you have power, but you really don't have that much.

Let's extend it a bit further. Let's say our new LCC, that used to be Mt Cook, was to ditch all the NZ pilots and hire a bunch of guys from Asia?

Before you say "it could never happen", imagine what the Ansett guys were saying before they all ended up unemployed, or the Aussie pilots were saying before they all ended up moving to Europe and Asia in '89.

Ask those guys whether it was all worth it, and see what they say.

How much do you want that flying job?

The flip side is that there is more than one way to skin a cat... and some of the Euro carriers are shining examples of what CAN be achieved if you are SMART.

I'm afraid most NZ airline pay negotiations resemble cave men armed with bludgeons. Lots of blood, but little progress.

Anyway... I support the Mt Cook guys. But I also see the situation differently.

In the sleepy Nz backwater, there is a little industrial law that stops any business from making people redundant and then employing others to fill the void. Makes sense ey! Mt Cook will NOT be closed down, Simple. Do you notice MOR you are about the only dissenting voice here. Are you trying to make yourself feel better for lying down and taking it from behind sometime in the past...........? In one breath you say you support pilots looking to maintain/better their lot and in the next you say pretty much they are fools for trying!:ugh:

Kmag, please don't tell single engine Pete is the Grand Pooh-Bar!!!!!!:eek:

How about complaining about the actions of the company? (As to which one, AIRNZ or Mt Cook that will depend on which one suits them at the time.)

What a fine comment. Because people normally call in sick days in advance. If a pilot gave a weeks notice of illness it wouldn't matter, they'd still have to cancel the flight! (Non union pilots being able to cover some of them excepted of course:ok: )

MOR: With all your expertise and cat skinning abilities you should contact ALPA and give them a hand. In a similar vein to Max Rates post, it seems you are an enigma, shrouded in mystery and wrapped up in a dog turd. (Now waiting to be called an idiot and told to reread your posts.)

well well
 

dont worry about MOR, he is negitive about everything, i remember a recent post where someone was asking about Beech 1900 performance, and guess who pipes up saying "who cares", and another where he condensendingly calls a B737 a light twin. As i have said before; yes MOR we all know you are gods gift to aviation, now leave us alone to protect what is ours. You really do have some major chip! wonder where it comes from?

(now also waiting for the bombs to start falling :zzz: )

Well it's 15 going on 20 times the cost now. Still competent?:confused:

Between this one and the great thread on the kid getting a ride over Auckland recently I agree with you Speeds High, MOR can come across negative.
But beyond the boorish tone and the overbearing attitude, if in this case, MOR is simply playing the devil's advocate, then there are some good points within the lines.

It might be that this dispute could be an opportunity to slow any perceived alignment of NZ CoS with the international trend. With Mt Cook's place at least a couple of tiers away from direct overseas comparison and taking into account the overall package, it all might work in the pilots favour just yet.

The words of these self professed worldly-wise can still be taken in stride, no need to beat-to-quarters each time NZ gets poo-poo-ed, it really doesn't look all too dissimilar from outside looking in.

I hope you get some good news soon.

If you choose to air your "Industrial Laundry" on a public stage like this, dont get too upset when you attract the jaundice opinion's of the less than "industrially savvy" types this forum traditionally harbours. (you know who!) And for God sake dont actually take any notice!!!

They are usually on the outer of the normal information stream, and lurk here to feel included.

PS: Someone mentioned earlier, an NZ based ATR SIM wouldnt entirely fix the paxing issues....... how is this so ??

Thanks

Because it's the cheap kind, not approved for all checks.

Ladies and Gentlemen good luck with your struggle you got both thumbs up from me :ok: :ok:

If you are expected to travel such distances for your training etc it should be good seats. An airline should pride itself in its treatment of its staff particularly those with the ultimate responsibility for the companies most expensive assets.

Really do people want the situation arise that pilots end up paying for tickets so they can get to pay for their sim sessions. Perhaps they will be able to ask passengers which websites to get good deals on. Me thinks that many passengers would be really impressed to discover the people with their lives in their hands are struggling through sim checks due to fatigue and missing out on many valuable items that are experienced through simulators.

MOR many of those airlines you know of that had their pilots travel 20 plus hours to use simulators were they African airlines or from areas with high risk's and poor safety records? Or was the M6 or M25 just busy those days.

You guys at Mt Cook all the best please do the best you can as many people below you, next to you, and that will follow you will appreciate the stand that you are taking for your T and C's.

For those of you with keen eyes and far superior English than I pick away guys as I have passed the one English test that matters to me and my family.

Kia Kaha

Well done Waka!
 

Anymore info????????????????

Sorry Hanz, Something happened on Wednesday with the ERA (employment relations authority) to see if Mount Cook was part of Air New Zealand or some such Sh@t. This will effect all of the link operators in the next set of negotiations.

Ruling late friday......Watch this space (as they say):ugh:

Hope we are all still part of the Koru brand, otherwise just being raped by the master. The old boys talk of ski fields and buses, wonderful business and family to work in. What the F$@k happened.

TIFF

RIP (The original Mount Cook Airline) Thanks H. W.

Kai Kaha

Mt Cook and pilots try to bust deadlock
 

In the Christchurch press today...
Pilots been negotiating since August 2005
On strike work to rule since February, not returning to work on their days off to cover for their sick colleagues.
Airline has cancelled 270 flights
Bargaining now to go to Employment Relations Authority for facilitated bargaining for 'fresh talks'.
Tell me please what difference will this make to the entrenched position that the company has made? Will they now give in to the pilots demands?
Asymetric Pete says "the dispute is about pay and training" also says "its a philosophical debate in negotiations" Philosphical what....does that mean money and giving the pilots the same as other Air New Zealand pilots?
O'Regan would not say how much the dispute had cost the airline. Is it more than the pilot claims? Is it Air New Zealand that is pulling the strings nd why do they want to screw their most productive pilots? Fyfe the knife is rife.......:ugh:

Yes we had a quiet day yesterday on the fuel trucks..kinda nice really..all the AA PM flights have been given to Vincent but their call sign is an Air Nelson one..All the normal schedualled Chooks have cancelled next to the flight numbers on our sheets so I guess the strike is really on now.

Good luck chaps

Stay United..Stay strong
 

...for those of us who have walked the picket lines,been fourloughed,fired and on strike.....my advice....Stay United,Stay Strong,and believe in yourselves....I and I,m sure everyone,wishes the chook pilot group all the best in these tough times..PB