Erin

Extend that logic a bit ..... should we move all the knucks out of Williamtown and post them permanently to Scherger and Curtin? Those are 'front line bases'. Is it worth fcuking retention and recruitment for a generation to be seen to be 'vigourously defending the sea-air gap'?

The government might just be cottoning on to this. Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of moving 3RAR to Adelaide and reroling it, one of the explanations provided was to provide a temperate climate posting.

Don't you think it's time you guys moved onto your own RAAF bitch website, which I'm sure exists, rather than prattle on here?

I'm not interested in your airforce V airline nonsence, as I'm sure others aren't, so why don't you just sod off?

Ahhhh....maybe because it's relevant to the topic?
Thanks for a great contribution there, Amos. You must own the website, I s'pose.

Jealousy and ignorance.........
 

What, did someone hold you down and force you to read it, or demand that you posted 4 other messages on this thread? Go back to sooking about Jet*...

I wasn't going to bother replying, but I thought it might annoy Amos some more if we strung the thread out a bit - so I figured it was 5 minutes of my time worth worth investing. 'Cause of course he can't just ignore the topic, he has to read it all and then weigh in, despite knowing nothing whatsoever about the subject. :)
I wouldn't bother about it though AOTW - that's the only sort of contribution he ever makes, no matter what the topic. I guess there just wasn't enough vitriol, bitterness and name calling to keep 'ol Amos happy!
That said, his contribution (as typically mindless as it is) is of course rich in irony, given the amount of airline v airline or pilot v management slanging matches that have gone on on this board over the last couple of years. Apparently all that's quite OK - but an interesting and topical thread about the national defence, with well thought out and structured arguments is to be avoided at all costs.
So anyway, come on chaps, let's keep it going! Whilever we're annoying prats like that, we must be saying something worthwhile!!
AOTW - hope you're well!
SW

Cheers, Swingwing. Going great, hope you're doing the same.
Jeez, if what you say about Amos is true he must be one happy individual - 'over 500 posts' - maybe there's a positive one in there somewhere?

I think it has been established that there is nothing beneficial to the airlines in having part time, serving RAAF pilots. But conversely, the reservist concept may be expanded.

If Defence were more accountable for dollars and ran like a well oiled corporation, it would probably consider more unconventional approach to crewing the new generation of legacy airline platforms- namely the A330 tanker and 737 AWACS.

Jetstar went on an unsuccessful poaching spree through the Middle East and Asia, looking for experienced airline pilots to bring home. A large number of those pilots, were former RAAF types with extensive experience on the aforementioned legacy airliners. The package at J* is crap. And frankly, so is the package at Virgin Blue.

Government could offer significant tax breaks, say 40K a year, to entice former RAAF pilots to crew 737's and 330's as reservists. For the cost of single permament RAAF pilot, Defence gets three highly experienced reservists. If we go to war, these types traditionally fly at surge levels and crewing not a problem.

In terms of retention a positive too. Restricting permament RAAF pilot access to an aircraft such as the 330 ( which is a one way ticket to a lucrative airline contract ) and keeping them on tactical types ( fighters, transport, maritime ) makes the new world of airline flying less attractive. That is, having to pay for an endorsement at an airine such as J* and be on less money than you would make in the service.

So Amos, I assume given this is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, you don't consider Military pilots as professional?
Weren't you with ANSETT?

Gnadenburgh,

All good points you've raised. However people join the ADF as pilots to fly ADF aircraft doing ADF stuff. Sure, there will be those that will change their minds and want to go to the airlines - it's still a free country.
However I still maintain that the problem (and therefore the solution) is retention. The ADF needs to think outside it's very narrow field of view of this matter.
What is the more desirable option: continue to train pilots and have squadrons full of inexperienced boggies, or do something positive about working to keep the experienced FLTLTs/SQNLDRs that just want to fly?
If ADF pilots were allowed to stay flying for as long as they wanted, we wouldn't have to be considering all these weird and wonderful schemes.


PaF....you sh!t stirrer you!:}

When in doubt, commission an inquiry! That'll fix the problem. Or change the rank slides from shoulders to sleeves, or back the other way on the SD jackets. Bloody deadwood who leave for the airlines...snort...splutter!

Reality - the ADF does not have enough pilots.

If this statement is incorrect tell me why the new army choppers are being put into mothballs straight off the production line.

When there is an ADF surplus, then we can properly consider "top gun" second officers.

The ADF understands where commercial pilots fit in with regard to the reserves:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafn...es/story03.htm

Maybe the Navy can have them, and the Army can look after the Sea Sprites? :}

Certainly the RAAF and the RAN are struggling to convert newly trained pilots in a timely manner. Some are sitting around for months before starting conversions. At a time when their flying skills are at their most fragile, this is quite undesirable. IMHO, 60 Minutes could get some good mileage out of this!


Really? Do tell! Last I heard the Tiger has been having problems coming up to speed - it's not a matter of finding people to fly them!

Captain Sand Dune


Quote from Defence Minister Nelson: "If we lose those people and we need them, there should be a capacity to deal with that and deal with it in a flexible manner from a government that's very committed to flexibility in the labour market," he said.

Let's look at this further in relation to RAAF Reseve pilots, in particular to the A330 Tankers, but it could just as well be the 737 Wedgetails.

1- The A330 has been introduced around the globe, in various airlines, by large numbers of Australian pilots. A percentage of which are ex-RAAF. Locally, it is operated by QF and soon J* International. Further, uniquely, CCQ makes 320 pilots a few days training away from 330 qualification, or further, having the ability of Mixed Fleet Flying on the types- another huge pool of Australian pilots of which a percentage are former RAAF.

2- The A330 is an unmatched endorsement in giving RAAF pilots direct access to a whole new world of lucrative flying positions- the Direct Entry Command. This is not yet for certain, it hasn't really worked for American tanker pilots in the past- KC10 experience has not really been recognised as concrete enough for DEC suitability. Despite military stigmas existing, I think the market will snap up RAAF 330 pilots as DEC's.

How could this be applied to the Defence Minister bold statement of labour flexibility and the RAAF?

Firstly, here is the perfect opportunity to have a squadron bulked up by Reservists. As many as you want with that attitude of "labour flexibility". All in recognition of the fact that the RAAF tanker squadron would be at surge levels during an unlikely event of conventional military scenarios ( airlines run these things at 20 hours a day ). Also, for political camouflage and due the dwindling RAAF fast jet resources, tankers could be a regular committment to coalition air campaigns in the future.

The flexibility the Defence Minister talks of, dictates that training large numbers of RAAF personnel to crew the A330, a misappropriation of Defence resources; in view of the huge number of former RAAF Airbus pilots out there. With the new found labour flexibility in Defence, buy the expertise back from the civilian market place.

How? Could it be done? Offer ex-RAAF pilots tax free $3000 a month to crew A330 on a reserve basis. A few days a month and three weeks a year during annual leave. Conventional currency on type would come from their regular airline flying and recurrency training. RAAF mission currency would be the basis of their reserve training. Reserve Pilot X, current Cathay 330 training pilot, seven thousand hours Airbus, former RAAF F111 pilot. Reserve Pilot Y, current Check Captain J*, four thousand hours Airbus, former RAAF C130 pilot etc. $36000 tax free dollars a year say, for 5 weeks reserve committment will attract airline pilots considering pay pressures in the market.

The attrition from A330 pilots leaving could be addressed too. Sure, they leave to go fly in places such as Korea or the Mid East on lucrative contracts for a while. But their possible return is open to them.

There is a world of ex-RAAF & current Airbus resources available. Enough to crew the A330 Tanker for the next 25 years with a 'flexible labour' attitude.

Gnads,

1 - A good idea initially i.e. it would make sense to take advantage of the sh!tload of experience out there to quickly build the squadrons' corporate experience, instead of doing what the RAAF usually does and ignore it all and re-learn things the hard way (remember the B707 off Sale:( ).
However IMHO once the squadron is up and running the numbers of reservists vs PAF pilots would need to be changed ( more regulars, less reservists) using the pilots currently loafing around squadrons doing fcuk all flying, and/or those in ground jobs created to hold pilots.:yuk:.

2 - Easy addressed - ROSO. Pilots posted to 34SQN as captains are required to accept a 2 (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) year ROSO before starting conversion. However what the RAAF must realise is that no matter what they offer, there will always be those who will opt out for the airlines. Nevertheless they (the RAAF) could introduce some of the measures I've been banging on about in previous posts in order to retain experience.

Exactly!! The RAAF could release such people on leave without pay (for example) to go and fly with whomever. These people would come back with a bucket of useful experience the RAAF can use, not to mention being "refreshed" and probably cashed up too.:ok:.
Then they wouldn't have to go through the nausea of resignation and re-enlistment (like I did!:yuk: ).
However I fear that such an idea is a little too much "outside the square" in terms of RAAF-think. Unfortunately there exists in the higher levels (not all, mind you) an attitude of resentment toward those that have done exactly what you have suggested. I'd call it jealousy myself!:}

Capt Sandy,

Agree in general with your thread.

In answer to your question re: ROSO at 34 Sqn - my understanding (unconfirmed) is that its only pilots doing BBJ (not Challenger) conversion who get the ROSO. You say its only captains - not sure on that point - in any case... if copilots got the ROSO it wouldn't matter as its served concurrently with the 10 yr Pilots Course ROSO which they'd most likely be in the first half of anyway.

I think the background to this ROSO is that a couple of fellas left the RAAF a few years ago very shortly after doing 737 type conversion in Seattle. These guys were heading for AEW&C, not 34 Sqn, but I think the ROSO rule will apply to either BBJ or AEW&C (and presumably A330, C17?).

Incidentally, I was recently passenger on a VB flight where the captain was sitting his initial command route check. He was one of the guys who legged it from the RAAF a couple of years earlier shortly after doing 737 conversion (no ROSO) in Seattle.

VI

Maybe Jetstar could buy some Hercs and sell frozos to passengers whilst they sat in their webbing seats.

That would save some $$$ for J* and the pilots could fly part time :}

Your probably right on that one. Any 34SQN pilots care to comment?

That's my understanding as well. And Ronnie couldn't see that one coming?!:rolleyes:

Correct - the ROSO is only for BBJ conversions (not Challenger) and yes, it is served concurrently with the standard 10 year ROSO - so only really applies to pilots whose ROSO has elapsed (or will within 2 years). Not sure why the Challenger is still exempt - plenty of 34 Sqn Challenger captains legged it for the airlines in 2005 - guess they didn't have a 737 rating to slide into a command position (which happened to at least one BBJ guy). One can only presume that similar ROSO extensions will be put in place for the A330 and Wedgetail as commented previously, but if we start talking about ROSO for C17, then why not for any other platform? (C130J, etc - it's still "glass" experience and somewhat attractive to an airline I guess...)
I'm not sure ROSO is the way to go - make the job more attractive to stay (ie remove the looming threat of a ground job after say, a command tour at 34 Sqn). Talk of ROSO breeds resentment - not commitment.
Death to secondary duties! :ugh: