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Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA
Tuesday, February 28, 2006 Australian International Pilots Association Locked Bag 747 Botany NSW 1455 Attention: Captain Ian Woods President AIPA Cc: All Jetstar Pilots Dear Captain Woods, It is necessary to write to you to clarify the position of the Jetstar Pilot Council and it’s support of the proposed variations to our existing EBA. A majority of the Jetstar Pilot Council members, of which there are five, have agreed to support and promote the proposed variation. The Jetstar Pilot Council is the elected party which represents the Jetstar Pilot Group on all industrial matters, and does so with a clear mandate. We have taken the decision to support these changes following a process of negotiation which occurred over a five month period. These negotiations resulted in the drafting of the proposed variations which we believe provide the mechanism for working with the company in securing the best opportunity for continued and sustained growth for the pilots we represent . At all times the negotiations between Jetstar management and the Jetstar Pilot Council were cordial and constructive. Both Parties remained mindful of the each others position in respect of our professional engagement and the continuance of a close working relationship, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations. I have now on several occasions made this position clear to yourself and other members of the AIPA Committee. The correspondence which you have recently composed and distributed via electronic means to our pilot members is misleading in that: 1) I have made it clear to yourself and other members of the AIPA Committee that at no time during negotiations with the Jetstar management team did myself or any other member of the Jetstar Pilot Council feel in any way under duress, nor were we threatened or coerced. 2) I have clearly stated to yourself on more than one occasion that the possibility of the company using a North American crewing company, was an assumptions made by myself as a result of exploring the availability of suitable pilots. These explorations were effected through discussions with personal associates not related to the Qantas group. This option or outcome was at no time proffered by the Jetstar management team as a crewing solution. There exists no evidence to support your assertion that any Jetstar Pilot Council member has expressed either to yourself, nor to any AIPA Committee member, any feeling of threat or duress. I have spoken to each Jetstar Pilot Council member today and have confirmed that no such conversations have taken place. Your call to our pilot body through the unsolicited correspondence of recent days is not welcomed by the Jetstar Pilot Council, and we will advise our pilot group not to respond. AIPA’s claim that it has the interest of every Qantas group pilot at heart is quite simply too little too late. It is perceived by those Jetstar pilots with whom I have had the opportunity to contact, as a thinly veiled attempt to disrupt our progress in securing the opportunities presented to us. Most feel it is hard to believe that AIPA could represent or act on our behalf in a fair and impartial manner which would secure the best result for the Jetstar Pilot Group. AIPA would have been afforded the opportunity to attend as observers, any negotiation between the Jetstar Pilot Council and the Jetstar management team, had any pilot in the Jetstar Pilot Group who is a full and financial member of AIPA, requested such attendance. To the knowledge of the Jetstar Pilot Council, no such request was made. Your claim that the variation is in itself deceptive in respect to it’s references to “Wide Body” not “Long Haul” is an insult to the entire Jetstar Pilot Group. Throughout all negotiations and subsequent discussions with the pilot members, it has been clearly understood that this variation reflects the introduction and operation of Wide Body aircraft into the Jetstar fleet. It is not a variation in respect to long haul or international operations by Jetstar as Jetstar already conduct international operations. Should you continue in these attempts to disrupt the negotiations and subsequent vote, we of the Jetstar Pilot Council believe your committee is seriously and potentially irreversibly threatening this opportunity for Jetstar pilots to gain access to future growth and the inherent employment security. We would expect you to retract those comments in your recent correspondence identified herein as misleading and incorrect. Your Faithfully Rick Heaton President Jetstar Pilot Council |
With that sort of response let them have the flying.:mad: If they believe that wide body doesn't mean long haul on other types than the A330 for as little as 160k they are all fools!!!! Sad very bl00dy sad:ok:
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Ooooh great another Jetstar thread...
Have no idea what this one is about, not intersted really...just want to make it known that the whole operation is a scam and the Government is one of the principal scammers!! As my original thread was shut down ("Jetstar you are a disgrace!) I thought it only fare to remind everyone that they are in fact.....a disgrace!!
4 days in the sinbin for you...you're right you have no idea. Ethereal Woomera :* |
You just don't get it..do you?
4 days sinbin for you too. Ethereal Woomera |
The continued erosion of T & C's is a product of a weak pilot body (whether you call it unions or not) You Jet* guys and gals are the masters of your own destiny on this one. How many of you out of interest paid for a type-rating? How about those of you that would quite happily take a pay cut so you could get the base you want?
Be strong..stick together, ultimately you can be sure that any concessions that the management types get out of you..will be reflected in their bonus payments:hmm: |
As a dad, I'm very conscious of labelling the behaviour, not the person. J* pilots themselves are people like the rest of us and the proposal beinb put to them does not make them a disgrace. It is a poor deal but that does not reflect on the genuineness of the actions of the people doing the negotiation. It does show that they are significantly out gunned but again, this does not make them a disgrace.
So, from a mainline pilots perspective, can we knock it off with the name calling and just label the deal for what it is. Woeful. |
TD
What have you achieved by posting this on an open forum? This is just muck raking and will hinder any negotiations and offers of support to the JPC. As Keg says, now is not the time to play the man but play the issues. We need to have all lines of communication open at this time and support the JPC in achieving the highest possible remuneration for flying the A332's and subsequently the B787. The salary that they agree to will set the standard for Oz based airlines for the future. |
Going Boeing
We need to have all lines of communication open at this time and support the JPC in achieving the highest possible remuneration for flying the A332's and subsequently the B787. |
I originally posted this on another thread.
Originally Posted by Agent Mulder
What no one cares to define is what is the "Market"?
There are 300 JQ Pilots, 400 VB Pilots and about 100 NJS Pilots flying jets in Australia. Total of 800. There are 2500 Qantas Pilots flying jets in Australia. Total 3300. Qantas Pilots are 76% of "the Market". Therefore, by any reasoned argument, Qantas Pilots are the "Market". The other 24% are earning below market salaries and therefore are to be supported in their attempts to bring their salaries up to meet the market, not the opposite. Standing by for reasoned argument. I do not agree that this is the conditions for Qantas Pilots going forward, and not just for the reason stated above. Qantas Pilots have a binding Certified Agreement. Binding on the Pilots and the Company. They cannot ignore it! Nor can they throw it out without substantial consequences detrimental to the business. What Qantas Pilots have to do right now is send the message to the Board and others that whilst Jetstar Pilots are prepared to work for the conditions they have negotiated, Qantas Pilots are not. Any amount of posturing by the management is worthless if the Pilots determine that they are prepared to stand up for their negotiated terms and conditions. Show them that you are prepared to negotiate, but you are not going to be dictated to on the future of YOUR profession and the quality of life of your family. You are 76% of the Jet Pilots in Australia. You have the numbers and the ability to control the outcome. Look for fat in the Certified Agreements that make you more productive i.e. increased divisors, less restrictive open time allocation, home transport for being paxed in business class (please!), just to name a few. Remember an increase in productivity comes with an increase in salary. Negotiate, Negotiate, Negotiate. Tread carefully, don't be brash, and for peat's sake stop abusing others for negotiating a deal to the best of their ability. At least they are negotiating, and at least they have a deal. They did the best they could with what they had. Deal with it and move on. You do not have to work for those conditions. Whenever anyone hears someone saying that this sets the benchmark for the future, ask why? It is a fundamentally flawed argument that 300 JQ pilots set "Market Rates" for 2500 QF Pilots with a fleet size 600% larger. It is a conditioning line used by managers to attempt to make you believe their position. Remember to ask them why they think that, and stand by for a blank stare or a fluffy stumble of words. You know what you have available to deal with, there's a deal to be done and it can be as painless as you want it to be. Be cognisant of the fact that if you don't change, you may lose control of the agenda. It's up to you to determine how YOU want your future to be. |
I would go one further than that and say that the Jetstar Pilots Council has a right to recommend a vote in favour; but they're not the ones doing all the voting. It would seem that there are only five on the council.
The crews actually doing the flying and not getting cozy with management might have other ideas! |
The crews actually doing the flying and not getting cozy with management might have other ideas! |
Some striking parallels
We had a union at Netjets that ran to management and tried to ram a new contract down our throats. We rejected the contract, conducted an inquiry into our Local Union Affiliate..then fired the lot of 'em!
Less than 12 months later with a newly elected leadership and the unified support of 2,200 pilots we got: 1. $US 40, 000 signing bonuses 2. Elimination of all potential training contracts, bonding, and pay-for-training. 3. 30-48 percent raises across the board. 4. Scope protection to eliminate others from flying our passengers. Netjets used to have pay-for-training, a union that was not solid in its representaion focus and poor morale. Now the place is a winner! I have one question for "Rick" who seems to be placing an unreasonable focus on "his" personal fortunes if this agreement goes through. What will stop QF Group from starting "Fanstar" next week and getting another group of merry men together to drive wages below those that you have just agreed to? When friends of mine vacation in Australia, they ask me if they have to worry about sharks. I tell 'em, "Only the ones with two feet." |
Mulder, you should take the time to familiarise yourself with the government's wonderful new IR legislation "going forward".
When the mainline pilots' certified agreement, which I believe is "binding" only until January 2007, or anyone else's for that matter, expires, everything is up for grabs. An employer is then permitted to unilaterally give 90 days notice that existing terms and conditions are unacceptable, and will no longer be complied with. If after that time no new agreement is reached, all the employer legally has to provide is a minimum salary of approx $484 per week, 38 hours of work per week averaged over 12 months, 10 days per annum sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave and 52 per weeks parental leave. |
Keg and others, I was not having a go at the Jetstar pilots at all, just the JPC. I would hope and believe the the rest of the Jetstar pilots will think like Chris and let management of both JPC and Jetstar know by voting accordingly...
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The only comments that i will make on the signatory to the letter (Rick) are from observation from knowing him for a number of years.
1. he has had more worldly and diverse life experiences than most mainline pilots put together; 2. he is as cunning and as streetwise as anyone I have met; 3. I hope the management countered their fingers after shaking hands with him- there may be a couple missing.... :E |
Exactly Alidad,
So is there an ulterior motive for representing the J* pilot body? Like perhaps, a management position? |
WorkChoices legislation has no place in this debate. Mulder is right.
Qantas pilots are the market. We fly the 787 under OUR deal, not theirs. At this stage it seems the JPC is going to vote this deal up. I, and I reckon a lot of others at QF, will never work under the conditions they have negotiated. If my contract is terminated and I'm offered those conditions, I will quit. I have the ultimate power over whether I turn up to work. I have a valuable skill and I'm not selling it cheap- I'll sell used cars before I accept a crap deal like this. Good luck to J* guys, youre going to need it. |
AND WHY SHOULDN'T THEY?
For as long as Implulse has existed in its various incarnations - JetStar International being the latest - and no matter what equipment it has operated, pilots employed at that airline have been lampooned, derided, castigated and generally ridiculed by mainly AIPA members as the latter saw the new boys on the block as a threat to their jealously protected terms and conditions. The show appears to be now on the other foot.
Why shouldn't the JPC agree to the proposed conditions that have been negotiated in good will by one hopes mature adult professionals? If the agreement gives these guys largely what they want in return for their labour and skills, then so be it. If it means that Qantas Mainline pilots get shafted down the line, then so be it. No one needs be in any doubt as to the AIPA position: the brothers are outraged not because they really think the JPC is selling out but really at the thought that the end of the ride on their gravy train is about to end - and not before time. AIPA and its members are so egocentric that nothing or no one else matters save them. Their track record stands as irrefutable evidence. When you get to the bottom line, Impulse and co. have been able to do for many young and not so young pilots that wasn't possible elsewhere. Murgatroid comments "So is there an ulterior motive for representing the J* pilot body? Like perhaps, a management position?" Really, but he should look no further than the procession of AIPA types who have crossed the divide for much personal reward at the expense of those who they purported to represent. TineeTim...is modesty one of your stronger attributes? You probably have much to be modest about! Good luck in the car yard on the Parramatta Road as you'll sure need it with such an attitude. |
I would argue that QF pilots are not the benchmark – you are having yourself on if you believe that. The new IR Rules are the benchmark! Individual companies and their shareholders will decide appropriate wages with their employees after negotiation as the PM wants. Whether this is right or not is another matter. The QF Board initially recognised the opportunity to increase profit by the introduction of an airline named Jetstar with lower overheads to compete with LCCs like Virgin. This has added to increased profits for the QF group with primary beneficiaries being shareholders and customers who get reduced fares. At the bottom, some may argue are employees who may or may not receive salary increases.
The QF Board have now seen the opportunity to expand internationally with Jetstar at the expense of QF mainline and again at lower operating costs. It begs the question whether Jetstar will take over completely in the next 10 years and be renamed Qantas at a later date when what we now know as Qantas has folded. No ‘I’m not dreamn’. I wish I was. Some QF pilots may not want to accept what is happening, but this is the real world we live in now and it’s happening! A united body is the only way to prevent further deterioration of wages and conditions as a pilot. A genuine yardstick for pay levels can only be achieved by ONE Union to negotiate on behalf of all pilots who fly jet aircraft and maybe regional aircraft. Otherwise, with the AFAP, AIPA, JPC, and other pilot councils negotiating separately for separate airlines, the situation will deteriorate further. The fallout is seen in the initial post to this thread where one body is being told not to interfere. The AFAP and AIPA must now become united and pilot councils in various organisations, incorporated into the new union. |
Guy’s,
It is so obvious as an outsider looking in that most that are criticizing the QF pilot group are probably management trying to stir the pot. Think before you take any notice of them. My advice to everyone in QF and JQ is to ignore them. This is the oldest trick in the book in the divide and conquer game and management are using it to the fullest. |
404 ,CORRECT.
all before delted(psuedo managers) are doing their best to drive a wedge between the various pilot bodies. Ladies and gents, don't get sucked in by their garbage. Stick together and drive the bargain as hard as you can. Most would not realise how far the respective companies can and will go to secure the deal. They have a lot more room to manouvre than they will ever let on. That is the fact. They can and will pay you the right money, but you absolutely MUST bargain aggressively. Keep your pilot council on their toes and never take anything for granted. DON'T LET PARASITE MANAGERS RUIN YOU LIFE! LET THEM KNOW WE ARE JUST A LITTLE SMART (well the last 5 words are accurate Ethereal Woomera |
Titan,
Couldn't agree more. Managers and Green Eyed monsters most likely. The new I.R. Laws are not the market. They are a guideline for Industrial relations going forward till the next election, subject to change and constant scrutiny. The Market is the Market, full stop. What is the market paying on average for an Airline Pilot in Australia. That is why there are terms like below Market Salaries and above Market Salaries. It is not the lowest price that someone can pay someone to do the job. That is a management tool used to attempt to mislead. Do not fear the new I.R. Laws. The consequences of an employer cancelling a Certified Agreement and trying on the scenario illustrated by Jaded Boiler would be disasterous for an Airline like Qantas. I would even go as far as to say it would destroy the company and cost the careers of all (Dixon etc). I would make the point to Qantas Pilots again. You must negotiate to secure your futures. This does not mean pay cuts. This means getting rid of outdated work practices and increasing productivity. It does not mean accepting the bare bones offered to Jetstar. They have nothing to negotiate with as their Certified Agreement has no flesh on the bones. They will fight for years to fatten it up. In the meantime all Qantas Pilots have to do is take a little bit of Weight Watchers to theirs and look for efficiencies. A 5% improvement on a $500m payroll is a $25m annual improvement to Qantas' bottom line. Jetstar Pilots would have to work for free to provide that sort of saving. Think about it and get proactive in driving change. After all, it's YOUR FUTURE. There is a fantastic old saying that goes "I worried my whole life about things that might happen, and some of them actually did!" You are in control of the agenda, don't lose it and stop worrying about what might happen. Make it happen on your terms! |
agent mulder the market is not Australia but the world. QF will only be happy when they pay the lowest wages in the world and even then they be looking to see if anyone will do it for less.
In many industries employers are importing asian boilermakers,welders etc for short term contracts because there is a "skills shortage" There is no such thing as a "skill shortage" just a "pay shortage" were skilled people will not work for peanuts. You should be scared of the new IR laws because if you will not work for the deal that is offered the employers will scour the world for someone who will. There are a hell of a lot of people worse off than a pilot in Australia and as such that means there are a lot of people who would do your job for less. Don't get me wrong,I'm on your side. Just don't be complacent about the enormity of the changes that are engulfing the aviation market. |
forgotten someone
talk it up what about eastern/qantas link they have tried in vane for years to join mainline but to no avail as precious mainline didnt want to risk bid seniority.but come a pay freeze their included under the qf banner. if anyone has a right to whinge its them .all i hope is eastern pilot action group gets off the ground and gives you all a run for your money.
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I can't remember the exact details but Eastern were offered slots in mainline a number of years ago but the AFAP challenged it and lost resulting in the subsequent withdrawal of those slots.
You Jetstar pilots should realise that you fly excellent equipment and deserve to be renumerated more. Don't sell yourselves out. Remember, if management can pay themselves what they do, they should pay you a damn site better. |
Its was long ago but not AFAP stopping progression but AIPA. Lets hope times and attitudes have changed.
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Mulder, AIPA has made it very clear to QF management that they are willing to look at productivity increases. The problem is the door is tightly shut. J* management do not give a toss about mainline. What is beneficial to the entire QF group is not what J* are interested in. J* look after J* fullstop. If only Dixon and Co. could see this.
I recall a recent QF statement "Jetstar is our main priority". If I were a shreholder, a frequent flyer, a QF employee, or even just a believer in an Australian Icon - I would be very worried. QF seem more than willing to sacrifice QF for J*; for nothing more than short term gain. The problem is that J* is so price sensitive, about all it can compete on is price. That is a BIG gamble for QF. J* was meant to be a defensive ploy, to keep others out and it is very good at doing that. But, it should be strictly controlled and limited. Anyone that thinks J* operating Avalon - Perth is not draining QF Melbourne - Perth, is crazy. Where to with J* Int? QF mainline will likely contract to SYD, SIN, LHR, LAX, SFO, HKG. Want to use those FF points to fly QF business ADL-LHR; the first part of your journey will be J* Int ECONOMY. Want to use FF points to go to a holiday destination - fly J* only. FF's will leave in droves. It goes on and on. Anyway, back to the present. J* pilots will vote as they choose. However, the should seriously look at uniting with AIPA, regardless of the vote. They may be a minority for a short while, but they will gather power and have available significant resources that will definately be required in the future. Just look at the QF shorthaul guys - a minority group that has number 2 slot on the A330 and every one of them has a command - not bad really. |
Guys
Once you agree to fly these new fancy jets for nothing, have been away from home too often because your conditions are s@#t, fed crap food and treated like an un-glorified bus driver, and then decide to apply for Dragon because atleast you get paid a decent salary that means you can feed a family of three and send them to descent schools, it will all be too late, think long and hard about the bigger picture guys, because once you fall into their trap, it's all over and it's not coming back. These new IR rules are designed for self serving, splintered and fractional idiots like we all are, and you mark my words, whilst we are fractionalised like this we will continue to be played off against each other until oneday when your child says "Dad I want to become a pilot", our response will be, "Son, I can't afford it, your better off becoming a lock smith! It's all over in this country, and the sooner we all realise this and start to band together, our professionalism and conditons will become so pathetic that not only will our management laugh at us, but so will the public. Start looking overseas guys, because the Down Under and God Zone has become the Down on Your Knees and D@#K H@#D Zone. |
Yeah!...I'm afraid that deeds is correct, as much as I hate to admit it.
Oz has become a third world country with a fifth world aviation system! But, hey! You lot were "agin" the 89ers so you get what you deserve!!! Learn to live with it! |
This is why a new representative body is needed to look after us all. In short we need to be saved from ourselves because time and time again we fall prey to the fear and intimidation tactics utilised by management. When we have fellow pilots negotiating EBAs there is a lot of pressure to not lose the opportunity to crew new routes/aircraft etc and the dark side know this and use our fears against us. Good Luck to us all about to vote on EBA conditions.
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I nearly fell off my chair when reading the letter from Rick above.
Did he also hand out blinkers to all the J* pilots? J* pilots, can you see what's going on here???? I think the rest of the world can! He is heading into management faster than a B787 if he gets this deal through the pilots. He (and maybe the rest of the JPC) will NOT be the ones on this deal for long, and will NOT be the ones flying the line on these crap T & C's. J* pilots, THROW AWAY those blinkers - DONT put them on. The future of being a pilot as a decent profession for current pilots, and ALL FUTURE pilots in Australia is in your hands. Please think carefully before voting on any such deal. BB. Very close to the bone Capt...I have left it as stands but knock off the vitriol...unless ya want 4 days too? |
Just for the record amos2,
I am not an 89er and this is the sort of attitude that needs to be dropped, we need solidarity and we need it now, otherwise its www.cathay.com or www.draginair.com here we come, I can hear the hallow halls of our avaition crew rooms now, I am sick of these rosters, I can't afford to buy a house in Sydney now, I never see my family (but the aero-sexuals will still love their A330/B787/B777), this food is S@#T, when are we going to get a good bidding system, remember when we got our jeps paid for, remember when the ground staff respected us, remember when they used to ungrade us, remember when I thought this was a great way to earn a living and the F#$king list goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What needs to happen is we all grow some balls and shove it straight to our management, call their bluff, stick together and watch our profession, sorry Bus driver occupation begin to resemble something close to what it was and what is should be! The time is now or never, otherwise see you in HK where atleast the money resembles something consumerate to our Bus driving occupation. |
Well, you go for it deeds...
but rest assured, your mates will let you down!... the record is there for all to see! |
I have just spent significant time moderating this one thread...at least two 4 day bannings and several more that were very, very close.
It won't take much more in the same vien to trip my BS circuit breaker and just bin the thread. If you want to be treated as adult professionals start acting like same. |
Sorry but had to laugh at this.
www.draginair.com here we come followed by I am sick of these rosters I never see my family this food is S@#T when are we going to get a good bidding system remember when the ground staff respected us Yep, going to KA will really solve all of those problems. NOT. |
AnQrKA
Perspective is a wonderfull thing:ok: |
Has it occurred to anyone that Jetstar are only offering what they can afford to pay? Or do you think that money grows on trees and so Jetstar can afford whatever the pilots demand?
Does anyone realise that Jetstar is a "low cost carrier" and that "low cost" equates to "low revenue" which in turn means that there is not a lot of money to pay the pilots with? |
Hey woomera, given that you're handing out sin bins, is there anything in your bag of tricks about binning people for blatant, moronic and idiotic wind ups? Perhaps you need to think about that one! :E
Aircraft is your first customer! :yuk: |
I think aircraft is possibly a little closer to the mark than many would like to admit.
Jetstar is positioned in a VERY price sensitive market at present...which means it doesn't take much of a fare hike to send people back to the inter/intra state trains /coaches....that has in fact happened already in one case and they quickly lowered the fares again. Anyone who suggests the JPC are industrially naive or not following the views of their pilot body or not seeking input from other very senior and industrially savvy pilots within J* just doesn't know WTF they are talking about...it's that simple. |
That was another typical aircraft comment. He has no real conception on what happens out there and I assume that has something to do with his age. He's probably still squeezing pimples...:E But I'm digressing. Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.
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