Jetstar A330 deal
 

Rumour has it that the JPC is about to recommend that J* pilots accept around 165K or about 185/hr to fly the A330 until the 787 arrives.

I find it difficult to believe that such an offer would be accepted by the rank and file on a number of levels.

Firstly, it is about 2/3 of what QF pays pilots to fly the same aeroplanes.

Secondly, the 787 will be a 250 seater; What sort of rate are the JPC going to negotiate for that when it has accepted pretty much a A320 rate to fly an A330? 120k... 717 rates?

Have some ballz guys. You accept this offer and you screw the OZ airline scene for decades to come. It is not just about you.

Truckster,
165k a year is about standard as a base salary for this size it is the allowances that kick the wage up into the mid 200k. If my memory serves me correctly 767 base wage at QF for a skipper is not too far off this mark? anyone confirm...
If this is true this is a good position to be in for the low cost carrier so long as the overtime and allowances kick you over the 200k mark. albeit the 787 is not a 767 granted but its a better start for the vote than 145k:rolleyes:

Rostov, if the J* rate you are talking about is a 'credit' hour as opposed to a stick hour then $185 isn't too bad. If it's a stick hour then it's going to be in the vicinity of 25% less than what a QF 767 driver gets- about 1050 credit per annum for about 750 stick.

O/T may make a difference to the J* rate and I don't know how that works. $185K per annum plus allowances and O/T would strike me as an 'adequate' start point for a 'low cost' carrier flying the A330. Total package just over $200K or thereabouts. Anything beneath that is selling yourself short- just as us QF drivers did with our last EBA.

I heard they've settled for A320 + only a few %, with an optimistic step for the 787 promised in a couple of years... Sounds like the Virgin promise of 'a raise when we're up'n'running.' I hope the J* pilots get decent allowances and a safety-net work credit system because;

a. sitting somewhere for up to 4 days,
b. because J* flies there only twice/week,
c. while getting nothing but stick-time pay,
d. as the company say you're on days off since you're not flying,
e. only to get home for a day then do it again (because you've just had 3 days off in slip port!),

is not conducive to family, friends or 1000 hours per year in stick pay.

I believe it still has to be voted on. J* guys and gals; consider wisely.

It's important for the JPC to consider "stick" hour vs "credit" hour when planning international flying. I assume that most of the Jetstar pilots have had a purely domestic background and have not had the situation where a port is serviced infrequently ie 2-3 times per week. In this situation, if their pay is stick hour based then they effectively are unpaid on the days that they are hanging around the pool in the slip port hotel. If a large amount of flying is to low frequency ports then their pay will be significantly reduced. Apart from accomodation and allowance costs, there is no incentive for management to make the flying patterns highly efficient. A "credit" hour system forces management to make the patterns efficient otherwise they pay pilots for the time that they are unutilised. J*'s international destinations will initially be Bali and Honolulu which do have infrequent services so this is a situation that has to be discussed prior to signing any agreement.

185 stick is what I heard. The current QF stick rate is around 300.

You guys will be selling yourselves out if you accept. As JB says, stick time on low density international ops is a recipe for disaster... on 55 hours a month the J* A330 drivers would be on far less than the A320 drivers.

Anyone get the feeling that these blokes should be represented by an association that has several decades of experience in this stuff? AIPA!!

They are either about to be sold a pup, OR, they know damn well the conditions are seriously inferior to that of mainline pilots and don't care.

If it's the latter, it seems they are about to do something that in my mind ranks LOWER than what various people did back in nineteen eighty nine.... They are about offer to do one group of pilots' work for less - while that first group is currently still doing the work, indeed flying the actual aeroplanes. They should hang their heads in shame at what they are doing to the "profession" by playing the divide-and-conquer game with Dixon against the mainline pilots.

This industry is a disgrace.

2 thirds of QF 330 pay sounds pretty good to me. But the real deal is not known and will be annouced any day know.

AIPA representation, you have got tobe kidding.

Word from within is that three A380's are going to Jetstar with a captains wage of $180,000 per annum.

Zed,

Why settle for 2/3? The JPC obviously doesn't value it's pilot body very highly. There are other efficiences to be made in rostering practices, allowances and standard of accomodation etc etc. That's how the Australian Airlines pilots did it, why can't Jetstar? Cutting your actual salary isn't the way to do it - it's just the easy way out.

Z Force,
nice wind up mate!

TL

Jetstar pilots are paid based on 75 hours per month and they don't get any extra pay unless they exceed that. Bear in mind this is flying hours and not the Qantas long haul style of credit hours based on duty time and min daily credit.

My information is that it shakes out to $147,000 for a Jetstar A330 Captain initially and keep in mind what I described above, minimal opportunity of over time or any other extra pay.

With the density and type of flying that long haul international is, the average pilot will be away from home at least half the month. To add insult to injury they will be operating to the CAO 48 exemption which entails 10 stick hours in one sector two crew extendable by 4 hours.

“Anyone get the feeling that these blokes should be represented by an association that has several decades of experience in this stuff? AIPA”

AIPA is half the reason mainline pilots are in such a pickle. Too much greed will eventually see you sidelined by a more realistic set of employment conditions.

“sitting somewhere for up to 4 days - because J* flies there only twice/week - is not conducive to family, friends or 1000 hours per year in stick pay.”

This may be true but jetstar are not going to change destination frequency just to suit the lifestyles of pilots. More importantly, how is more money going to improve the family life when sitting down route for “4 days”. It sux no matter what the income is.

A "credit hour system” is as outdated in airline flying as roster seniority and blanklines. The whole aim of jetstar is to ditch such inefficient garbage. Very few (if any) startup airlines use credit hours. Airlines are moving away from paying crew unless the engines are turning. Deal with it.

The reality is that there are tons of guys in asia and mid e knocking the door at jetstar down to get a job back in oz. The circumstances in oz changed the second the highly unionized ansett shutdown to be replaced by virgin. It seems the last people to realize this will be the pilots at qf.

Does any other airline make it's crew take their days off in slip ports?
If so, what are the ramifications re: allowances, DTA, WorkCover, etc??

Perhaps the professor believes that the Jetstar International wages are realistic and if that is the case he can go and work for them.

As long as pilots in airlines behave in the GA manor no ones wages will ever rise. The next start up will pay the pilots even less and they will accept it, just to get the jobs. And as history has shown us with Virgin Blue and now Jetstar, the promise of it improving pay and conditions once the airline has bedded in is utter fallacy.

It is true that we live in an economic rationalist world and airlines will from now on give the flying to lowest bidder. But from now on there is a new bench mark that all wide body pilots in Australia will have to work from and it will be very hard to break.

If the rumors come to fruition then I have bridge I want to sell to the JPC. Don't tell me, Jetstar threatened to set up a green field operation or was it that they would give the flying to Jetconnect. If you tell me the business case didn't stack up for better pay I think you need a Becks and a lye down. The business case never seems to get in the way of the execs self managed company funded largess.

You already are the lowest paid airline pilots, Jetstar were or are never going to give the flying to anyone else.

G'day Prof
 

My point was that many Jet* pilots may simply translate their current days off, hourly rate, the prospects of 'overtime' for exceeding 75 hrs/mth and 1000 hrs/yr onto their coveted international opportunity and conclude 'PAYRISE-TAKE IT' only to have the reality, learned through many years of QF flying by AIPA, turns to relative dust.

'Stick pay' contracts to which you refer, like the QF short-haul contract, are efficient when the flying is multi-sectored & minimum rest between duty days; they afford opportunities for max ours at higher pay rates, more nights in your own time-zone (if not your own bed) and more days off because of flying density. The QF long-haul contract, while far from perfect and not lacking in opportunity to improve efficiency, has been framed over many iterations, each of which the company has agreed upon in EBAs, which address exactly the type of situation where commercial decisions failed to address any humanising factors.

I sense that the JPC has been skillfully bamboozled into accepting the worst of both styles of contract; low pay and poor conditions. In light of the discussions which have transpired, and advice offered re the pitfalls of unfettered enthusiasm without consideration for the realities of rostered life as long-haul plots experience them to be, I'm disappointed at the acceptance reached but trust that the JPG will yet realise the deal (as heard here anyway) is not what it's cracked up to be.

And what are you QF pilots doing to help.





waiting:)





waiting:ok:



vote up thier EBA:sad:



waiting:rolleyes:



waiting:rolleyes:




On strike yet over Jet star international



No didn't think so.:sad:

Some posters on this thread completely miss the point of Jetstar. It was launched for no reason other than to achieve the cost savings that QF mainline obviously could not achieve. Such cost savings are beyond reach for a variety of reasons, an important one being the industrial roadblocks being created by various labor unions.

Jetbest tries his best to convince us that jetstar pilots should negotiate a longhaul style award including credit hours, but this is exactly what QF are avoiding by contracting non AIPA pilots to fly the aircraft.

I cannot wait to have this same discussion here on pprune in the future when the penny finally drops at AIPA headquarters as more and more flying is transferred to franchise operations leaving nothing but select longhaul premium routes for QF mainline crew. Hopefully then, AIPA will become pragmatic enough to understand that compromising on pay and conditions is a more effective way of managing inevitable change than continually being a victim of it. AIPA (and many labor unions in developed countries) stands a good chance of driving itself into irrelevancy.

“You already are the lowest paid airline pilots, Jetstar were or are never going to give the flying to anyone else.”

Smoke on go, I am interested to know if you are one of the QF pilots often quoted as saying that QF 767 pilots are the lowest paid in the world?

It has been pointed out here before that the deal on offer by Jetstar is still as good or better than a lot of similar jobs being offered in Canada, the US, South Africa, Europe and even Asia.

I believe the hand of co-operation was extended to J* pilots, but was politely declined.
Get the jobs now at any cost & leave the crumbs to long suffering qf f/o's via a MOU???
I hope that's incorrect but that's how it looks.
I can't believe the thoughts of so many here trying to put down qf pilots & their pay & conditions. Surely that is the standard where we all should be aiming.
Could someone please explain the smug altruism that some seem to get by working for peanuts?
Is it that aussie theme.."I haven't got it so no-one should have it either"??
Bet Geoff* get's it nicely in the hip pocket.
Divided we beg.
I'm Miles Long

Here's a smug altruism for you.
Aipa declined to cover impulse pilots when QF bought them out. The way I see it they made their own bed then. No point playing the victim now that it suits you.

Rostov. Very well put. The facts are, that if AIPA had given a rats about the Impulse guys when qantas brought them out in the guise of Qantas link, then jetstar would not exist today. I was at the meeting in Sydney when CM decreed that AIPA could and would not ever cover any " Impulse Pilot".

The high and mighty amongst the QF ranks prefer to think of any others forging a living in the industry as interlopers and detractors. Frankly, amongst most experienced guys who have been around, your pathetic attitude towards other professional members of the same industry speaks volumes. The spoilt brat whingings on this forum and the company one, highlight the head in the sand mentality that is gradually cutting you all off from the rest of the industry.

Obviously we all want as much as we can get for working. Thats a given. The quicker we can all unite and provide a barrier, the better.

Where do we go from here? Its obvious. The future is already here, thanks to the we are better than every one else attitude.

DM

Rostov, don't confuse the actions of the COM of the time with the general feeling of most of the crew. There was a considerable push by a number of crew to extend the hand of friend ship to the IPC at the time when the take over was announced. A number of senior AIPA people were saying 'no' but that they were providing 'advice' to the IPC so the hand of friendship was extended to a certain degree.

Now, with that out of the way, let's look at what is happening on this thread. QF pilots are saying 'careful you don't get stuffed around with a stick hour rate instead of a credit hour rate'. They are also saying that you are worth at least $185K + +.

The response from you and your ilk is 'get stuffed, you had your chance to help us out'. If that IS your stance then good luck. QF and AIPA pilots may not be perfect but we've run into a few of the pot holes that can crop up on long haul flying. Ignore the warnings of those pot holes at your peril. If at the end of the day you reckon that you're onto a good thing flogging around on an A330 at $150ishK then good luck and you're welcome to it. :rolleyes:

Yeah, and comments like Rostov's and yours make that so much more achievable. I'll be the first to say that AIPA dropped the ball but the 'piss off, you've had your chance' attitude is little man's syndrome to a tee. Ignore our mistakes WRT scheduling and conditions at your peril. It's not like you're on a great wicket to start off with!

Fly a bigger plane, make 10 -14% more money and fly international...of course Jet* pilots will take the deal. The pilots started at the bottom of the pile and can only go up. If they dont take the deal it will go to someone else and they will be stuck flying A320's for the rest of their careers. You can't blame the Jet* pilot. Once it goes through just hope to work with them to get their conditions higher at a later date when the 787 arrives. Wish the pilot shortage would hurry up already. XER

Thought the One* PWC would use their normal negotiation skills and do it for 10-14% less than the 717 rate! A pay rise? No this must be a mistake.:ugh:

DM, get off your high horse, you too Rostov. You cracked the sh1ts in 89, then come back to Australia and fly for less than you were fighting for in 89, then have the audacity to say we should all work together? And then slag off at guys in Qantas for wanting to fight for and maintain some level of decent pay and conditions?

It's not all about money, some of us actually want to have a lifestyle as well. You Jetstar guys will end up selling yourselves out again, and when the time comes that your dead tired from working max hours in the tube, exemptions to CAO 48 kick in combined with the possibility of spending days off in your slip port etc, you will wonder whether it was all worth it.

This sort of rationale was undertandable when JetStar was originally setup - Qantas management used hte threat of losing their jobs to force the pilots into an agreement whereby they moved uo a size in aircraft, but effectively received no increase in pay.

NOW is the time for the JetStar pilots to push their conditions higher - not 'when the next aircraft type comes along' or 'once the airline is turning a profit' - I think everyone is well aware of how miserably that line failed for the DJ pilots, especially those who came back initially to get everything up & going on the promise of a better deal later on.

Another example of the above 'take it & try to improve it later' was with the recent mainline EBA. Those who have criticised the final result as lacking in fibre are exactly right - all the cries of 'show the company we can be flexible & we'll remain relevant' have proven to be worth naught - especially those who argued that 'doing the righty' by the company would see mainline pilots somehow get even a look in at the JetStar International jobs. All that it really did was maintain costs for the company, ensure that management KPI's were met, and that everyone involved on the management side received their bonuses.

Don't forget - some of the key players in getting the EBA through are the very same people who ensured that AIPA didn't/wouldn't attempt to cover the Impulse pilots when first approached - for some reason it wasn't even considered important enough to take to the troops for a vote. Think about that for a second . That was one of the prime reasons why the former committee was turfed. Unfortunately, from the tone of some posters here, it seems as though some people think that it is too little too late.

Let's hope not for everyones sake - especially for those guys who will be flying for JetStar International. The real benefits from flying long haul come in the form of extra $$$ in the form of overtime, and time off at home. Take away one or both of those things, and you are just left with what is a pretty boring & tiresome job.

It's OK Pete, there are a bunch of seniority numbers waiting for them in mainline. It'll be interesting to see when they start getting used- probably when the training in J* slows down and the junior guys realise that they can make more money with a better life style as a mainline crew. They'll think it was 'worth it' then! :rolleyes: :yuk:

The pay rates the clever JPC "negotiate" for the A330 J* WILL be the pay rates for the 787, J* Int and QF mainline, think anything else, you are kidding yourselves.

No wonder the QF boys and girls are getting rather pi$$ed with the arrogance of the JPC.

Thanks JPC for our future conditions! NOT!

Johhny, your spot on, where's the rationale for negotiating further advances in pay and conditions come into play as your airline becomes more profitable, when the parent company you work for already turns out record profits every year? Your also correct in saying basically that anybody who wants to fly long haul international for peanuts and work their pants off for it is welcome to it.

Instead of attacking pilots base pay and conditions, and I emphasise base here, the pilot groups could be looking for efficiencies and savings in other areas. And that doesn't include foregoing 3%pay rises as some enterprising individual suggested on Qcrewroom.

G'day again Prof
 

I didn't say the QF L/H award was perfect, and I didn't say a company should change it's commercial decisions to suit pilot lifestyles. You're quite correct in saying;

'... Jetstar are not going to change destination frequency just to suit the lifestyles of pilots. More importantly, how is more money going to improve the family life when sitting down route for “4 days”. It sux no matter what the income is.'

I accept that the company will factor in the lowest costs achievable from the pilots in question, and if those pilots can't figure out the adverse aspects of a proposition, they stand to carry an unpleasant burden until they (once again, having placed themselves in the predicament by ignoring history) trade off future pay-rises to improve their lifestyles.

What is evident to me though, is that if the work on offer (ie J*Int) is not fully understood then those pilots accepting the deal may be sorely disappointed when the reality turns out to be crap money and crap lifestyle. I believe J* pilots potentially face the prospect that despite their small contribution to the overall cost base (& remember that all pilots, even QF pilots, are a very small component of airline cost base!), their low pay may make the most marginal of route proposals 'worth a try' and hence find themselves sitting around a slip port accruing 'days off' on no pay at the company's pleasure. You ask why a company should pay for that time; I ask why a respectable company should expect its employees to have no 'credit' for time away on company service? A credit system does not give more money for being away as a trade-off against family time as you infer. I would make much more money and have more days off if all my flying was efficient 40hrs/7days etc. What a credit system does is redress in part those occasions when my company CAN'T, because of commercial priorities, get me to fly more while I'm at work and thereby goes some way to preserving a certain number of days off at home. Is that really so unreasonable?

Having said all that, if some are prepared to do it, it is not the management's fault for capitalising on such opportunities. They will make their money regardless and the profits will keep on coming as route 'experiments' are conducted at pilots expense.

As a 'retired airline manager' I'm sure you find the idea of easy, uncomplicated decisions within a contract tailored for minimal HR or humanising ramifications appealing. But you might also acknowledge that good managers have always managed, even complex employment contracts, to produce continual record profits. Sounds a bit like Qantas don't you think?

You did miss one thing out murgatroid, THE A-380!!
It's a natural progression, 320, 330, 380.....;)

Hey pete, What happened in '89? I am not familiar with it.:confused:

Reeeoowww!

I agree with most of the comment from Keg and Johnny Utah. Now is the time for consolidation, threats from management are commonplace nowadays. That is how a bully does it.. Hence lots of comments here and less on Qrewroom.

So AIPA let you fellas down. Many at mainline were not even at QF in those days...The junta never put it to a vote. The pilot group didn't do it to you, the present management of mainline FOps did. Sold out many friends too....It is small minded simple and typical of a group under pressure to think the pilot group sold you out. Your MOU for exchange of opportunities at mainline was accepted. You have got seniority in a company that you didn't necessarily apply to and in some cases were rejected by.

That is history fellas, you are there. You have a number in our system...
Many scheduling quirks will illuminate themselves. Keg is right the company will flog you to within an inch of the regulations..All the time the sword of damocles will swing over your head..."plenty more where you come from"

Maybe there are, maybe there are not..
I for one intend not to live in fear of that rubbish. They may extend the age to 65. An american carrier may fall over...But in the end the baby boomer demographic will create SHORTAGES ACROSS ALL SKILLED INDUSTRIES. Think the Chinese will be able to come and fly for us, they will have their own issues!

By the end of the decade shortages of skilled labour will approach 200,000. ask around. Better still go to a GA airfield and check the aggregate flying hours They are down, applications to mainline are declining..Companies are advertising in the Australian for pilots!

A substandard deal shows no one anything. Justifying it as payback does not enhance any your credibility as a group. There is pressure all around the company. It is comonplace thesedays as a way to extract more from employees...I hope most of the J* pilot group see it for what it is. Poker bluff 101. But mainline aren't exempt from the bluff....My colleagues voted for a long haul EBA that promised to show relevance and flexibility to the company....And whilst I voted no, 58% voted yes...Look where being good little boys got us!

As alluded to above LCC isn't necessarily low pay-look at Europe! Southwest benchmark their pilot remuneration against QF mainline..

Hey Keg, just remember, only 190 odd guys are eligible to go across to mainline under the MOU. Everyone else new misses out. Its an unfair MOU. Anyway, its funny how the (few) QF fellas already in JQ really like the company, and the people, the flying, the aircraft & really don't want to go back.

....." the hand of cooperation and friendship" what a load of utter cr@p.

All you lot spruiking off as though you are God's gift to aviation. A lot of you Impulse/Jetstar or whateva you want to call yourself this week NEVER had to participate in the QF selection process in the first place. The only hand of friendship that was offered was GD's to JM's "over a Crown Lager or 2" and the rest is history.
One company rescued and reinvented to be the BIGGEST bargaining tool GD himself could ever dream about.
And to the Holier than thou attitude of many a QF mainline driver, where was/is the hand of friendship to the other 2 forgotten about QF owned carriers(not AO).
Many very capable and professional people have been "trapped" at SSA and EAA for much much much longer than you pr1cks have been in QF, and let us not forget those who had jet transport jobs at another now extinct wholly owned subsiduary and through no fault of theirs, became victims of company politics and bullsh1t.
Where was this hand of friendship then. Only when it's about to jump up and bite you all on the arse do you finally give a flying f@ck.
Career in aviation in OZ,.............

"tell him he's dreamin......."

MMMMMMMM Feelings running a bit deep there.:eek:

Yeah but take the emotion out and is he wrong

But hey EAA tend to act the same to lesses likes in the turbo prop community

Keep arguing amongst ourselves and we lose. EAA/SAA should be on a mainline list End of story. They passed the test afterall.

As for J*- continue the malaise blaming mainline pilots. Management did it via their arm of AIPA...As Johnny Utah said who profits from the division???

As for friendship being extended the QF pilot group when ASKED DID in fact PASS an MOU giving pilots who had not taken or in some cases passed the QF testing a seniority number.

But it is easy to blame a a perceived culture of tall poppies, most of us aren't. Point the finger and as someone once remarked....

"As you sow so shall you reap"

As a pilot group you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution...But Keg is right, you will get cut to pieces by scheduling!:E


Yes Johnny take out time off and overtime-Longhaul is bloody soul destroying

so where is the MOU for the EAA and SSA pilots...... oh thats right they don't pose a threat yet... bring on the DASH 8 400's....

The pilots who were called this week for interviews, are they for International or domestic positions?

Is Jetstar prepared to pay for the upgrade to the 330 (and then again to the 787) for current 320 pilots (if so how many?) or are they going to employ rated 330 pilots from O/S and unrated GA pilots (and have them pay the $40K for the endorse)?

How many 330s are going to Jetstar?

Why do pilots now need to pass stage 1 (psych tests etc) while previously employed have either failed or have not been required to pass?

What is the proposed launch date for International ops?

WHEW!!:ok: