QF94, You just don't get it.
 

For the second morning in a row, the cash cow QF94, KLAX-YMML hasn't stopped whinging about having to slow down for preceding traffic.

Now, for those who are not aware, there is an agreement between airlines operating between the US and Australia (Direct) and ASA that a maximum delay of 5 mins will apply.

Fair enough I say, but fair suck of the sav fellas. On days where there is holding, 15 mins for some aircraft, you waltz on through with a 2 or 3 minute delay. Invariably you are following another aircraft from the TARAX stack. On the first occasion 94 was 10 miles behind and closing by 60 knots meaning minimum separation in five minutes.

Controller vectored 94 to be met with the 'QF WHINGE' read: "I am the only aircraft in the sky", or "we've been flying for 14 hours, who are you to slow us down"

Now it might not mean too much to you but apart form the safety of your pax and yourselves, if there's a breakdown in sep, controller gets stood down, perhaps re-training, naughty check or worse a training contract.

If you don't like slowing down or prefer vectors, why don't you say so instead of this petulant, juvenile behaviour you carry on with?

It is not just big aircraft. A certain privately owned BE20 piped up the other day that 'we are a King Air after all' when they had to maintain under an active notamed military area. The response from the controller was quick as a flash 'well the area is notamed as active, after all'.

Interestingly enough, if it were a flight arriving at LHR, they wouldn't quibble as there's no "deal" to c/x holding there.

Might be worth a chat to the powers that be.

G'day ;)

........"we've been flying for 14 hours, who are you to slow us down"


Try that cr@p in any busy European or US airport and they would be laughed out of the sky.

Waste of time talking to the powers that be - they are the worst culprits of the lot.

:E

He flew through CAN a couple of weeks ago, was quite proud of myself remembering to push the "mate's rates" button. Everybody else was holding and he got a clean run.

The Middle-Eastern foreign-type flight from Dubai doesn't whinge.

Does he complain to himself if the airport is fogged in?

Or just curse himself that he forgot to pencil in CAVOK in the diary?

No good getting uptight with these types - they are past learning anything new.

They probably never consider that plenty of the Oz voices they speak to in Oz are the same Oz voices they hear in Canada, Europe, HK etc. and have seen it all before.

(Anyhow, if you really need to slow a QF 744 down I am sure you know the precise phrase that works every time: "Request Maximum Speed".)

Can't understand his complaint about having to slow down. He's on overtime! Which is probably the reason why he chose to do that sector in the first place.

CDC

karrank
Pray tell... What's the "mate's rates" button do, how does that work?

"Mates Rates" Maximum delay that MAESTRO is allowed to apply to that particular aircraft.

It is most embarrassing if you forget to apply a maximum delay and MAESTRO applies something over the 'agreed' maximum delay, like 30 minutes...

Thanks SM4 Pirate...

Interested how a max delay is determined for any particular aircraft.

Is there a preference give to particular carriers or flights?

Who decides?

Does this mean crews need to negotiate better with controllers for more favourable treatment?

Or does it all come down to some kind of deal between the management of AirServices and the airlines?

Or is it just good luck on the day?

Thanks!

VHCU

Nothing sinister VH-CU,

MAESTRO works everything out based on your estimate for the threshold, applies the landing rate (set by the flow) and works out the order and the delay needed for each and every aircraft. MAESTRO picks it based on the estimate nothing more or less; this is why it's important to have an acurate TAS in your Flight Plan, the FDR works the estimate from your flight planed TAS, Grib winds and a 'predicted trajectory'. all these things may be inaccurate so that is why it doesn't always get it right, but it applies the same method to all so law of averages says it gets it mostly right.

If you get a mates rate (defined offline who gets them, Med1 etc; flights from Continental USA, Africa etc. aircraft in an emergency scenario, MIL VIPs etc.) we need to remember who gets priority otherwise it doesn't always workout correctly.

MAESTRO works everything out on 'planned' times taken from our FDRs. It is very flexible (sometimes not!) but is getting smarter every upgrade. Aerodromes such as Canberra - Sydney; get put in the sequence based on a slot time for departure; which is a strategic decision but often needs to be modified in a tactical way to ensure slots are not lost; this can be tricky.

If 7 aircraft are arriving at 0831 in the morning, maestro will pick the order; but if you speed up ever so slightly you may go from number 7 to number 1. The order is stabilised about 30 minutes before landing... But things can still change for tactical reasons.

When we start applying a delay early; it's because we've taken the order and 'frozen it' so that variations in the FDRs don't affect the entire order. If you've got 7 aircraft at 0831 and a 2.5 minute landing rate number 7 needs about a 15 minute delay; get in early if you can rather than just go to holding, right? Sometimes of course there is nothing at 0829 so we start making 1st go fast etc. and tighten the line behind.

There are different Mates Rates too, Zero Delay applied, 5, 10, 15, 30 maximum applied. Sometimes we give a MIL VIP Zero Delay, establish a line behind that aircraft and then get a call that "we need to meet a specific on blocks time"; which means 3 or 4 need to get in front, embarrassing if you’ve just finished applying the delay already; answer usually means slots lost…

The classic slow down, now speed up scenario.

Another reason for the slow down then speed up is "separation"; often pilots assume we could have just given an interim speed instead of the too slow speed; but this doesn't always work for 'separation' it's not always just about the sequence, hey QFA94?

If I may, this is exactly what PPRuNe is all about, we learn about others problems from each other.

Good grief Pirate! This post should be cut'n'pasted into MATS to replace the gibberish that's there. You could almost be forgiven for assuming you understand it!!!:cool:

Of course you may, Woomera. Handing out bouquets must make a pleasant change from jury, judge and executioner duties.

SM4 Pirate Wow. Thanks. That is a truly breathtaking piece of clarity and one which I hope will be appreciated by many other Ppruners.

VH-CU

Good onya SM4:ok:


Now, any chance someone from NZ ATC may read SM4's post and take some of it in:confused:

Flow? Co-ordination between sectors?? Naaaaah!:mad:

Cheers,

Contract Con:ok:

These flowed sequences may also be achieved by augmenting the descent speeds.

Such instructions to achieve this include:

MX - Maximum Cruise, Descent Speed
CSR - Cancel STAR Speed Restrictions
PISSOFF - Pilot Initiated STAR Speed until Over the Final Fix

Maestro requires accurate profile information from the airlines as well. This data must be updated in the software other wise you have maestro telling you what the aircraft should be doing as opposed to what the aircraft is actually doing. One enormous p!ss off for us was when QF decided to fly econ descent speeds. The first the operational controller found out about this was when a controller had a 737 following a QF 767, the 737 was catching the 767 by around 60kts on the descent. To minimise delays a controller 'streams' aircraft, that is, when maestro indicates no delay an en-rooter controller will aim to have 8 miles between the aircraft (with no closing speed) at hand off to approach (40 miles or so) you are running a happy 10 miles, it starts closing rapidy to 8 and the aircraft are still 60-70 miles out. VECTOR TIME!

We now have QF 767's doing around 265kts, QF734's 300kts QF737 and 8's a mixture of speeds and the 330's doing all sorts of wierd and wonderful speeds.

Everyone used to do 300kts above ten thousand, try working out the above mess? You don't know what they are doing now unless you ask, it's a pain in the ar$e to have to ask every QF pilot what he will be doing on descent.

The communication between ASA and Qantas is appalling. If the communication isn't appalling, why isn't is getting through to the console?

None of this explains why Aust ATC flow control remains the worst I have seen anywhere in the world.

25 years of operating to LAX, LHR, FRA and assorted other dearly departed destinations with very complex airspace requirements and with shedloads more traffic than Syd, and rarely are we dicked around as much as we are in australia.

Sorry to the ATCO's, it may well not be your fault (could be systemic I realise), but there is another side to the coin.

Oh, and if the 94 is such a cash cow why arent Delta, American and Virgin Blue flying mel-lax also ?

En Rooter.

Its good to hear from the other side of the fence.

When QF introduced these "econ" descent speeds the rank and file were told not to worry. QF and ASA had been in discussions and everyone knew what was going on, and everyone was happy. Now from the coal face we find out this was all bullsh*t.

The amount of fuel saved on these descents is 3/5 of 5/8 of f**k all. However Managers being bonus driven, are looking at unreasonable solutions with no consideration for the bigger picture or those who have to work with this rubbish.

Thanks for exposing the lies.

fartsock,

I've never had to wait for over an hour on the ground for a startup clearance and departure slot in Australia, the way I frequently have to in Europe. In fact, apart from the occasional speed up, no slow down, now speed up again (which has been explained pretty well above), and the ridiculous LTOP modes forcing me to land with downwind at YSSY, I've never been "dicked around" here. Yes, maybe it's because there's less traffic, but maybe, just maybe, these guys and girls are doing a decent job of it. I appreciate your efforts anyway, En-Rooter and others.

As to your final question, I wasn't quite sure if it was rhetorical or not, because it seems to indicate a distinct lack of awareness of how the industry works. Just in case you did want an answer though, I can't comment on whether QF94 is making a killing, but I daresay that the minister for Qantas (and all his predecessors and successors) won't grant third and fourth freedom rights to the likes of Delta and American, ESPECIALLY if it's a cash cow! And Virgin Blue probably won't do it either because they're a domestic airline! :rolleyes:

fartsock, you weren't QFA94's Captain by any chance? :ouch:

No (too junior to get LA's) - and I never winge over the radio, its pointless.

I dont condone those that do either, they make the rest of us look bad

Could one of the controllers from Sydney explain why the idiotic PRM system is used?

It is not unusual to be slowed to min speed in the climb upon entering Class E and maintain this all the way to Sydney then 20 miles further out before finally landing.

I was told when this system started it was to fit more traffic into Sydney per hour, but it seems so inefficient and must cost airlines hundreds of thousands throughout the year. Not to mention the dominoe effect for the remainder of the day after arriving at the gate up to 30 minutes late.

Can't just simple ILS approaches with radar vectors be used?

Not having a go at ATCers, just after the reasons why were are burdened with such a frustrating and inefficient system.

A little birdy once told me that whenever the Approach/Departure procedures at Sydney are modified, the first thing they do is overlay the TAC with an electoral boundary map, and then go from there. Please direct all complaints about SY (delays, track miles, holding, vectors, SIDs, STARs etc etc et fkn c) to your local member :mad:

Jenna,

Why would an ATC be able to even vaguely answer your question?

Like you, they only look at the black and white no bull**** approach to the fastest simplest operational solution.

Everything else is political bull**** - elected and company varieties.

The poor bastards flying the planes and controlling the planes just have to work around the ever increasing piles of it.

Bitching amongst ourselves just makes it worse.

Same one that was whinging that a 'domestic flight' had his optimum level over WA enroute to Melbourne?

"The amount of fuel saved on these descents is 3/5 of 5/8 of f**k all."

Shame really, coz it regularly costs you a slot in the sequence. It's always safer to make QF #2 now.

"Same one that was whinging that a 'domestic flight' had his optimum level over WA enroute to Melbourne"

And being WA it was probably a King Air with no Y or W??? Would appear they expect to be d*cked around near airports but have the desert to themselves:}

King Oath,

I'm sure that someone from QF and ASA were in 'deep' discussion about the new speeds, no doubt augmented by company expense accounts and allsorts of posturing about how good each other was and how important the relationship was!

Unfortunately, nobody told us! The first we knew was after a couple of days of trying to work out why everyone was catching you fellows by 40, 50, 60 knots on the descent. A sneaky little memo appeared in our new info book.

As Karrank states above, it's easier in alot of cases to make the bloke that gets in the way no2, it really should be impressed on you fellows and your company that you are losing slots due to this policy which in the long run will cost you more money, ironic really.

Fartsock,
You've had 25 years at this game and still too junior to get LA, man that's a long que!

en-rooter.

It doesnt surprise me that noone told you. We were all given a nice shiny memo from 'dolly' which said that the whole thing had been coordinated ect ect.

Having said that, is it going to help if we tell you what speed we would like to do on descent. ?

If so we can put the word amound as best is possible.

Actually, now I think about it, I dont even want to go to LA, but it gives me something else to winge about

FS

99 times out of 100, if you ask for it the controller will try and make it happen. Information is power, speak up or forever hold your peace.

why PRM?
 

PRM increases the landing rate during peak periods affected by low cloud, to a number more-or-less equivalent to IVAs.

It reduces overall holding (but you get an extra 20 track miles for free).

It avoids the situation where a PA31 backs up the whole sequence to minimum approach speed from 15NM by allowing overtaking during IMC.

It gives a couple of controllers a couple of hundred bucks each for coming in on their day off for the privilidge of staffing PRM.

From what I'm told, it's a inefficient traffic management tool however the "saving to industry" is enough to warrent continued use.

Fartsock and other QF's,

What will work when you come onto 132.2 (can't speak for the the other freq's, perhaps an ATC from the others sectors could contribute??) is:

"Centre, QF... speed on descent 265kts, estimate Narel..... unless it affects our slot in the sequence or slows the aircraft behind we can descend at 300, 320kts etc, new estimate for Narel......."

Believe it or not even 1 minute later at the fix can shove you back 5 to 10 (or even more) minutes in the sequence.

:ok:

Maestro, the tool the airlines asked for. A slight digression if I may...

There has been recent complaints about aircraft in the hold being allowed to track and speed as desired in the pattern to meet a feeder fix time. No Stack Departure time. We realize that this is harder to do with the little boxes, but feeder fixes require you to be at the fix at the time specified. A stack departure time allows you to be a minute early or 30 seconds late out of the hold. If two aircraft in a row are at these extremes then we either get two at the fix at the same time or at the other extreme, a slot disappers and everyone gets pushed back again.

The airlines asked for this system. We all have to work with it.

Cheers,

R-s.

En-R


Will give it a crack. The only problem is that revised estimate / different crossing time thing at Narel might be hard to organise on the fly given the limitations of some a/c's FMC's.

All this begs the question of course - why didnt the line pilots get togther with the line ATCO's and short this ***** out in the first place?

Our pilot managers really are abymismal, more focused on bonuses than the operation.

Instead the respective Managers get together (probably interstate or over a free 5 Star Lunch) and compare bonuses and Frequent Flyer Points - and who has got the flashest leased German Car.

They probably even believe their own rhetoric.

It is quite some revelation that essence of Maestro is based on flight plan data rather than the use of real-time radar speed and positional data.

That would appear to be the magic ingredient that makes it so wonderful in producing such quizzical and shocked looks across the flight deck when receiving conflicting speed control instructions from sequential control agencies!

I hope we have a copyright on that software so no one else in the world is allowed to use it!

eeets Frrench sheet :mad:

Not only is it French, but it costs a lot of money to buy the licence to use it!

It's not the only ATC Flow management tool used around the world, but it is considered one of the better ones!

It still requires a lot of human intervention, eg. into BN the heavy has to do the instrument star with the 737 doing the visual star, MAESTRO will put both acft at the same feeder fix at the same time. Instrument star has more track miles, hence for a nice 150 second sequence, feeder fix time computed to be the same. Outcome, ATC will either re-route the 737, or the FLOW will manipulate MAESTRO to get an achievable result.

Of course with major weather diversions, MAESTRO can't cope, and the FLOW works his ring off!

Uncommon Sense,

I assume that Duff Man is ATC and he had not problem answering my question in an informative and succinct manner.

No one is bitching amongst anyone. I even stressed at the end of the thread that I was not having a go at ATCers.


Duff Man,

From sitting in the pointy end, it is difficult to see how there are any savings to the industry. There are no worse delays in Sydney (IMHO) than this system.

Thanks for your explanation, it is much appreciated.

Jenna,

Quite right.

I over reacted after a ****ty day.

Sorry.