Uh, yeah.

I think that was kind of the point being made.

Like if you got a bag and put four hammers in it you would be all like 'damn that bag is smart like super cecil' I would think.

Cecpit,

I am him and he is me ;) I am a few others as well, I think you will find that my aliases take up about 43% of prune membership.

Once again, you are out of your depth, do you understand the issues here? Good Lord, I'm falling into his trap, what a stupid question?

Super Cecpit, you're next stupid statement please? Really, you are making a fool of yourself.

Thread on Further Airspace Closures Today:

Link

Hello DHC Driver and please pass on my felicitations to The Missus.

The drones who are telling her she is unemployable are talking complete crap, it is just policy they don't do short courses any more. She passed one once, I'm sure she could do it again. I think the drones are convinced nobody is employable now if they are over 20 and don't have a degree.

To claim that anybody who hasn't seen a console in 5 years is unemployable is crap also, if true some of the instructors should hang their heads and head off (back) to retirement:8

I'm on leave now, after about 4 days without phone calls this dreamy feeling of well being hit me. I believe its called relaxation. Brilliant. Egad, its afternoon, time to get up.

ATC sleeping in
 

Heard on ABC radio today that a QF jet had to hold "over Canberra" because the duty controller had supposedly "slept in".

If it's true, I feel for you mate. I hope you come out of it with a second chance. As if nobody else has ever overslept before.

Sleep is very underrated in this day and age.

I wouldn't have thought that the previous duty controller would've left the building unattended though, knowing that there was no one to talk on the radio. Seems odd.

Anyone got any insight to offer on this one?


520

Canberra tower is not staffed 24hrs. The morning shift opens the tower.

The aerodrome would have been 'open'. I believe the pilot could have landed if he wanted too - it was probably a company requirement not to land without ATC.

The S about hit the F.
Tops East closed for 2 hours tonight. Tops West down to 1 Staff class E closed. DTI closed. Apparently no one available at all for doggo on Fri Night. Expect all Flex tracks through West Proc or through Tops East.

TIBA Watch

MBZ Procedures??
 

I heard this on ABC radio also, an RPT with fare paying pax in a holding pattern for 20 mins burning costly fuel over Canberra in the early hours of the morning !!

Find this hard to believe, surely it could operate MBZ procedures on 118.7. They do at other airports outside TWR HRs.
Any reasons for a problem here?

suggest a merge with the 'MBZ' thread - same thing.

Hmmm. That's a bit close to the truth for comfort, karrank.

Most of us who have been in the field for longer than ten minutes remember the laughable University of Tasmania degrees or diplomas or whatever the hell they were. Loads of students coming out with "tertiary" qualifications, well versed in middle management techniques and IT, but when they got to the field a disconcerting proportion were found not to be able to control an aircraft as long as their bums pointed to the ground.

It was always better in the old days, of course. I remember the stories of the old timers being thrown into a procedural tower, told "that's north, now get on with it". All slightly enhanced with time, of course, but not totally removed from the truth.

Now trainees have 87 volumes of training manuals and paperwork to fill in before they can answer the phone. Unfortunately none of those volumes tells them how to answer the phone. :hmm:

If you can do the bloody job you can do it, if you can't you can't. If DHC's missus has held a rating in the past she can do it again. Everything else is politics.

I suspect the same "cover your arse" mentality is at work in the airlines. Any old TAA/Ansett drivers remember being asked to turn base south of the Pioneer river into Mackay? Never a problem. Now a close base means four miles, and never below 1500ft.

Somebody bring me the bloody grumpy old man pills, please.

NURSE!!!!!!!

Karrank, you must have been in the ATC college some time ago. I visited the guys there 2 weeks ago, and all the instructors I spoke to were all online controllers seconded to the college for 2 years. Only 1 of these was anywhere near retirement.

Dirty Pierre,

You did not speak to "all" instructors.............

"I visited the guys there 2 weeks ago, and all the instructors I spoke to were all online controllers seconded to the college for 2 years. Only 1 of these was anywhere near retirement."

That was probably because the majority of the instructors were out the back having their afternoon nap due to old age!

I visited the College early this year and at that stage they only had a couple of seconded controllers there. One left after only 6 months (due to frustration). Another who was there said that in his first 6 months he tried to introduce new things to bring the College up to date but got beaten down by the older guys. He now just goes with the flow until his time is up.

But as you have been there more recently, hopefully I am wrong and things have changed. Those poor ab-initio's need to be taught current ways, not some rule that was used 20 years ago when the instructor last controlled a real aircraft.

And here I was wondering whether I should volunteer my services as an instructor for my last couple of years in the job. It appears my age would prevent me from imparting any knowledge. :(

Don't be so sensitive Bino's; I think you'd be a real asset in your twilight years.

The biggest problem with the college over the last 5 years; is the 'retirement crew' dusting off the headsets... This isn't current staff seeing out there days at the college; it's been some crusty old blokes who had given up the gig 5-10 years earlier coming back for another go. But they are cheaper than FPCs you know.

There also has been that little matter of every applicant, being failed to be released from ops duties when selected.

Some of the old blokes (they are all great blokes by the way) have been multi-tasking; i.e. ex SNR TWRs (5 years past) teaching Enroute, where they hadden 'trod the boards' in over 20 years. One was heard to say, where are the strips?

Have been some current bods there in recent times, mostly all from the North; not that there's anything wrong with that.

there was an ad for new college instructors on Friday 2/9/05. From memory they were looking for at least five years experience and no more than five years since last operational, but check for yourself. At least if you were an instructor fatigue management would be less of an issue ;)

I don't know about that.....I remember waking some of the old boys up in the sim after they had been 'instructing' me. :zzz:

Cheers,

NFR.

Anyway, back to the - ahem - topic:

Noservices from Airservices tonight:

http://www.civilair.asn.au/cgi-bin/y...num=1125210489

Latest rumour doing the rounds when a little short on ocean the other night? Call in an ex-ocean controller ( 3 yrs ex ) and get him to look over the shoulder of a very junior controller who would be doing his 2nd. shift as a rated controller.

Let me know if you run short in Mel. i did sectors there 15 years ago but i`m sure not that much has changed has it?

Contracts!! AAARGH!

We are currently negotiating our CA (certified agreement). We cannot take industrial action until the protected bargaining period. This begins on expiry of the current CA, in October.

The current TIBA occurences are really due to a shortfall of staff, fatigue management constraints, and the recent bouts of flu like viruses that are doing the rounds in Brisbane at the moment. We have enough ATCs to do the job as long as not too many controllers get sick at the same time.

So how does this worK? What is 'A' and 'B'? If there is someone to answer the phone and give me an approval why isn't that person working the traffic instead?

What is going on?

Because that person is not rated to work that sector of airspace. In fact both those numbers give you the admin staff who assists the Ops Manager for the centre. She is not even a controller. She puts you on to the relevant supervisor for your enquiry.

The reason for the temp. restricted airspace is because there is only one controller to control Gold Coast approach airspace for the morning, and his breaks are notamed. This is due unavailablitity of staff.

Every sector of airspace requires a controller to have an endorsement to work that airspace. Just like pilots are required to hold endorsements for different aircraft.

Nomorecrap
YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST A
YBBB/BRISBANE APPROACH GOLD COAST B

are the official sector names as described in the designated airspace handbook (DAH) (page 2)

This staffing is getting to be a joke. Airservices must do something about it as their slash and burn is becoming exposed as there is just no staff to work the sectors. The Oceanic Sectors including the airspace of other countries has been in a TIBA situation 3 times in the last week I wonder how long until the contracts on the provision of services there are reviewed/cancelled.

Why has a media outlet not got a hold of this. A Telstralike government organisation not providing the services. The public has a very low tolerance for unsafe things in aviation and I am certain would be interested.

Whooaa steady there old fella.

Let's get back to square one.

There has been a rentless campaign by Airlines, the Govt and the tin foil cohort :rolleyes: to user pays for God knows how long and the hunt continues for cost reductions that have clearly been absent for yonks.

I don't know whether the corollary is apt or not but when one goes on a Nazi weight loss diet, apart from stripping fat it also strips muscle, sinew and skeletal material along with it. The brain being smarter than the rest of the body looks after it self, it has to or the whole thing falls apart, it is and has to be the last thing to go. Usually what happens in extremis there is a large organ failure first.

Tin Foil Leader and his mates can rant at the edges all day, but it's the airlines who control the day, comparing or attempting to, our Airservices costs with more densely populated countries is like trying to set up a Special Economic Zone at Giles.

Airservices always did and still belongs with a Government funded organisation.
To expect a private company to cost recover from a uneconomic base which refuses to recognise that if it wants First World services it has to pay for it in relation to an economic base AND not have the Sovereign risk protection that Governement enjoys is Pollyanna.

Efficient yes Government or Private, but how can you be efficient if you are structurally weak and muscle poor.

And we wont go near Tin Foil Leaders billion dollar dalliances.

I dare say were we to put a credible Business Consulting and HR firm through the place they would get a tick for business management and quality processes but a big fat zero for resourcing. There would be a recommendation to raise revenue rates to provide the resources necessary to fulfill their service obligation or and theres two chances it would happen get the Government to hand back the Capital they took out in the first place.

When the provider of Air Traffic Control in this country cannot provide services in what would I expect to be their number one priority areas there is a serious problem. A capital city TMA goes TIBA today, 15 International jets are in UNCONTROLLED airspace over the Tasman due to staff shortage at once this week, the same airspace goes down twice more, tonight all control over 1/4 of NSW is not staffed, etc, etc, wait for more.

This is disgraceful. I echo the above that Airservices must do something now. The ball has been in their court since they decided to run best case scenario rosters with absolutely no fat to cover staff illness. This is not some ASO3 position where the paper will keep piling up. Companies expect and deserve services from what is an essential service(wait for this to be dictated come Oct 25 when the ATCs walk out).

No Idea you have AsA hmm........

Yes, an absolute joke.

And I can assure you all there is no 'official' or 'un-official' industrial action taking place to cause this, in bleak city anyway.

With a management to plonker ratio of around 3:1 makes it even more farcical.

ASA, the Telstra of the airways.

:rolleyes:

Yet there are those of use who may be willing to come home and AsA are not interested in coming up with a package that makes it attractive enough. Couple of years ago I had a discussion with a HR guy and he said that he didn't see the need to recruit controller's with previous experience because AsA could train their way out of any perceived shortfall. Well that seems to be working really well!!!!

BT,

Worse than that. The current number of ab-initio controllers being trained will not even cover the number of staff expected to retire in 2005/6!

Given that there are also unexpected resignations every year, expect the staffing situation to get worse, not better!

I don't understand the psych of ASA controllers. If you don't want to work on your rostered day off - then DON'T. It's quite simple. If you do then I am guessing they are the one's not complaining.

The problem appears to be that there is more than enough controllers willing to work constant extra hours, have little in the way of a social life, give half of their earnings to the government and keep ASA management operating with a bare bones roster. This is a time bomb that will go off eventually where two airplanes will come together because of controller fatigue after working so many extra shifts he/she doesn't know what day of the week it is!

Oh yeah, and I bet somewhere in the contract it says it is the responsibility of the controller to identify and acknowledge when they are not fit for duty!

Maybe the union is too weak to handle the might of ASA upper management!!!

I do know that there are a few Aus-expat controllers in Canada that have a little black cross sitting next to there name? Don't think they will be coming home to nest anytime soon!

It's hard for the union because they don't have a whole lot of clout. The only way the union and its membership can make ASA management sit up and listen is by (protected) industrial action. When this happens, Jane Citizen misses her son's wedding in Perth, and John Doe misses his mums funeral in Darwin, all because ATC's "want more money". Public opinion is bent by Mr. Dudley's media releases to this effect and the union look like red ragging rabble rousers. It's :mad: ed, but thats life

From the progress being made it would seem good advice not to plan any weddings (or funerals) from the 26th October on for a while.

Hempy,
What do you mean? The union don't have a whole lot of clout? They should?! And the majority of the controllers should be the driving force behind that clout and if they want change, they are going to have fight hard and bloody for it - it would seem. And it is my guess that the minority that appear to be undermining the necessity for change should be dragged back into line by the union to achieve those changes that are long over due. The working conditions ASA controllers are working under is a joke and a time bomb of incredibly ridiculous proportions. You should see what the union has achieved for their controllers on that little island just south east of Australia - New Zealand is what they call it. (sorry, had to make joke out of that one).

Their conditions are pretty fantastic and it wouldn't hurt for the negotiators here to get together with theirs and have a little chat. I think they need too.

The union has as much clout at it wants to. The union is it's members.
The union is too public-opinion sensitive. Most people in oz have been subjected to the same sort of "belt-tightening" seen at AsA, and would be pretty suppportive, IMHO. Everyone is sick of it. The rhetoric is wearing thin; just read these forums. Workers at all levels (except senior management), in all industries, have seen their T&Cs eroded, so that their CEOs can collect obscene bonuses.
I was recently delayed because of a baggage handlers dispute of some sort. Although everyone was pissed off, the sympathy was tangible.
You might be shocked how much public support you could garner.

Tennis what do you mean by your last statement re- little black crosses against names. Surely AsA wouldn't be that spiteful unless people really burnt their bridges on the way out!!!

One has to admit that some bridges were at least singed when some left. One in paticular is still talked about to this day. Awsome stuff to be able to unplug, walk out, throw the ID to the guard and say 'Keep it, I won't need it again'. HUGE!

There are a few who have burnt bridges at home as well as abroad and believe it or not ASA are aware of them.

I'm not sure what it is exactly that drives ASA the way it does. It's an incredibly negative environment that serves no industry at all. Controllers nowadays are paid poorly in relative terms to 20 years ago against the average wage earner of today and the responsibility factor has increased significantly. They will only realise their mistakes when they come to retire. Get an accountant to do the numbers on how much in super just one percent will cost them in 20 years. Something around $250000 plus just for starters.

What I think has happened is that the controllers have become less forceful and the union just aren't up to the task. There needs to be major reform. And the minority that keep the system running for management need to be re-calibrated! Like I said before, investigate what/whothey, we consider our poorer cousins earning the pacific peso to the south east, get in the way of pay and more importantly CONDITIONS and I bet you ASA controllers would drop their jaw and lose a filling or two. If that didn't invoke an emotion then maybe ASA controllers are their own worst enemy in improving things. I wish them all the best in their efforts for this years negotiations and I hope they get what they want and hope they are after alot. And everytime the board says they won't or can't turn up to a round of negotiations, I would go to the Industrial Relations Commissioner and make them wield the big hammer. Show them they mean business - period! The ASA board aren't going to give anything away without a fight - so start fighting boys and girls!!!

Do Tell Tennis,

What is the package that Airways controllers are on?