QF A330 Emergency landing Kansai
 

Just heard of this but not much else. Anyone have more details?

Not sure how trustworthy, but there is more info here

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117...64-421,00.html

The Ninemsn headline will be. 'Mid Air Terror as Qantas plane burns in Japan'. Mark my words.

Wonder why the tower spotted smoke but there was no visible signs of smoke or fire in the a/c???

Glad to hear all are ok.

Any 330/340 drivers care to comment on how many detectors are in the hold? Are they temperature variation meters or flame/smoke sensors??? What's the go?

I have some small experience with the way Japanese authorities handle these sorts of events.

I hope QF and AIPA are right on to this one because the fact that people were injured during the evacuation may mean serious trouble for the operating crew.

Japanese police seem to need someone to blame any time someone gets hurt.

I hope I am wrong. On another note, can all the professional QF baiters please hold off for a respectable time please? I know you are all itching to get stuck in, but a little decorum please.

No doubt all the 'professionals' who infest these forums (including some of the mods)
will be onto the capt's decision and will soon be telling evryone what a clown he is

For what it's worth (and don't know if its relevant to this incident) - Airbus have a big problem, worldwide, with their smoke detectors.

I had a fault with my SDCU (Smoke Detection Control Unit) recently. While the engineers were changing it they commented that Airbus have a global taskforce out trying to retrofit new and improved smoke detectors in all aircraft.

He indicated the new units would have internal heating to avoid condensation triggering false warnings.

Calligula Perhaps you got up ont he wrong side of the bed.
If anybody criticizes this crew then they would clearly identifying themselves as GA/Areo club know it alls.

Sure it would be great to do a precautionary evac, but that would be the day the thing burns and you kill ½ the pax during the delayed deboard. And sure the SLB’s are supposed to be self containing in the event of cargo fire, but I wouln’t want to be the one to test that theory. Well done to the crew.:ok:

Out of interest;
A Saudi Arabian Lockheed L-1011 on a flight from Karachi to Jeddah via Riyadh reported smoke in the aft cargo compartment shortly after take off from the capital's King Khalid International Airport. The aircraft returned to the airport and landed safely, however an emergency evacuation of the aircraft was not ordered. With a delay in evacuating the passengers, fire consumed the aircraft on the ground, killing all 287 passengers and 14 crew

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/saudi163/1.jpg

BA50.

You are right of course.

Kapt M - a question.

I have read of horror stories where any incident involving pax injuries in Japan is taken right 'over the top' by the Japanese police.

Are these sort of reports a beat up, or is there a real issue here.

During an evac it is almost inevitable that there will be some minor injuries.

There are 3 cargo compartments in the 330. The foward, aft & bulk. (the aft and the bulk are seperated only by a net, so for the purpose of the fire detection/extinguishing system they are considered one compartment).

The forward compartment has 2 cavities, each with 2 smoke detectors. The aft/bulk has 3 cavites and 6 detectors.

Airbus use 2 types of detector...optical & ionisation. I dont know what sort QF 330s have.

There is also an optional system that, upon detecting smoke, isolates the effected compartment and turns off the extraction vans that ventilate the compartment. I do not know in QF brought this option?

There are 2 fire bottles that can be fired into either compartment. The ECAM checklist would have required the crew to fire both bottles.
The 1st bottle dischrages rapidly (60secs). The 2nd is flow metering and contniues to 'top up' the compartment for a further 280mins (4:40hrs)

The cockpit indications of a cargo fire will remain on...they cannot be extinguished as the fire bottle agent will contnue to trigger the sensors.

The crew cannot, obviously, assume the fire is out....they must assume otherwise. They can only attempt to confirm through other means if they fire indication etc was real...eg: ATC or cabin crew (sensing smoke or hot floor etc).

Hope this helps those interested in 'the system'.

KIX would be a **** of an airport to do a high speed, emergency approach into in the 330. (Due to terrain)

Its sounds like the crew did the right thing....however, as Kaptain M says, the real fun will start now that the Japanese police/system have got their fingers in the pie.

PS: as for the system itself; high humidity can set it off in error and as happened to me, so can the exhaust from the neighbouring aircrafts APU. Its very sensitive!

Just out of curiousity, what's the extinguishing agent? Not halon?

Just a clarification to the previous post. There are two fire bottles total for the cargo compartments that can be either discharged into the forward or aft/bulk cargo compartments. A fire extinguishing button for the forward or aft/bulk will automatically discharge both bottle into the respective compartment. Once the bottles have been discharged they are no longer available for the other compartment if god for bid you had a second cargo smoke warning in that second compartment.

Sounds like he did all the right things. I would suspect the "smoke" the tower saw was the agent from the extinguishers.

About time Japan joined the rest of the world when it comes to aircraft accident investigation!!!

HIALS,

Its not just an Airbus problem, happens with the 744 in the tropics also.

:ok:

I read that 8 out of 9 people taken to hospital were female.

It just made me wonder... does anyone have any figures pertaining to the injury rate for male/female in evacuation (please provide link if possible)?

Why in the tropics ? What's the difference?

High humidity, like taking a drink bottle out of the fridge, will form beads of water on the outside of the bottle. When these aircraft come in from cruise the holds are cold relative to the outside, dew forms, sets the sensor off.

Swh?
 

When was the last time we heard about a jumbo being involved in a similar incident?

From Flight

and.....
 

How many of these incidents relate to jumbos?
Or are you perhaps just guessing?

travel thickness,

No idea of the exact numbers, feel free to contact Gary Hunter at NASA Glenn Research Center he is the world expert, email [email protected]

Example of a 747 incident report I have read ..

"Lower aft cargo hold fire warning. A/c diverted emergency evacuation. False fire warning. Following a lower aft cargo hold fire warning a/c diverted to lajes where an emergency evacuation was effected. Some difficulty due to excessive force needed to open fully doors 2 & 4 l & 2 & 5 r. Several passengers sustained minor injuries. The cause of the firewarning was attributed to condensation emanating from a considerable quantity of 'warm' fruit. The two detectors were slightly oversensitivebut this is considered a very minor contributory factor. A mod has been initiated to fit a dual loop smoke detector system."

:ok:

P.S. Whats your beef with QF ?

from http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=186721

404 & Petite:

Thanks for the info!:ok:

Sounds like a job well done.

Nice to know Q does have some professionals.

(See Calligula I can be nice)

TO

Don't know if this has been suggested before, but do any airliners have CCTV set up in the holds? This could be a way to verify the sensors' indication. I suppose it adds weight, but not that much?

Cheers,

NFR.

The Slides.

Are the slides readily repacked and rearmed ready for reuse or do they have to be replaced for a quick turn around?

SWH....cost cutting
 

Swiss Cheese...cost cutting....no language speaker ,aircraft that are the Hyundai of the skies...compromising pax safety..That dear boy is my problem.
Remember QF 1 BKK?.....a pure example of the swiss cheese principal.

Genuine Skyundai 330 replacement skins. Arrhh Quality!
More importantly cheap!

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9...00200023rl.jpg

Full spares kit

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/6...s330kit4wr.jpg

Bank Angle 50.

With the initiative and nouse that you exhibit perhaps you should take up the posting as Qantas Chief of Engineering.

What frightens me is that the bean counters would believe it !!!

If only the appropriate bean counters were ****-scared of flying, you'd get alot more out of the barstards!

travel thickness,

"Remember QF 1 BKK?.....a pure example of the swiss cheese principal."

Are you suggesting that the 744 is a "Hyundai of the skies" as well or is it more of a Combi-van or Tarago...the A330 is designed to a newer certification standard than the 767 and 747, it has met and exceeded those standards.

How one airline makes a fit out for an aircraft type, cannot be used to make a safety case for the aircraft. It has been mentioned elsewhere that a number of deficiencies in the procurement of the A330 were made, you cannot blame Airbus for delivering the aircraft to the customer specification contracted.

I noticed you have amended your previous posts from
"Cost cutting =no language speaker=very poor customer service."
to
"Cost cutting =no language speaker=very poor customer safety."

If you believe strongly that safety has been compromised, have you made a written report of the same ? If yes, what was the feedback you received ?

On a personal note, I have flown with Perth based crew as pax, as well as east coast long haul crews, the "service" I have received as a passenger, and attention to safety details in my view when as a pax seemed higher from the Perth based crews.

If you have safety concerns, technical crew, ground staff, and you managers will back you up 150%. If you try and push safety as a wheel barrow for EBA and IR reasons (e.g. only Australian long haul crews should do international sectors), don’t expect the same level of support here or elsewhere.

:ok:

It was cost cutting regarding the language speakers on the PERTH TOKYO Flight.

Perth Longhaul have been flying the Tokyo trips for the best part of 3-4 years now. In nearly all cases 2 or 3 Japanese speakers are planned as crew - this obviously helps customer service and in the event of an emergency helps significantly. An incident on a Melbourne Tokyo QANTAS flight highlighted this (there were no language speakers on board when the aircaft had to divert) , and as a result the Japanese language speakers were returned to these services.

In the last bid periods out of Perth, this bid period inclusive and particularly the Tokyo Perth Flight that this incident has just occured on, the flights have been crewed by Short Haul Perth based cabin crew -they are much cheaper to use on long flights with large transits (ie 80 hours). This change is a direct result of cost cutting (and their FAAA. In so doing there are no Japanese language speakers on board as part of the normal crew compliment. In all of QANTAS's wisdom, after the short haul crew on these services started serving Japanese meals for dinner instead of breakfast along with a few other stuff ups, they realised that yet again they needed language speakers on board. So QANTAS's short term money saving solution has been to have a short haul crew complimented by 1 long haul crew language speaker (instead of the minimum 2 normally used). This 1 extra crew member is purely for PAs etc and are treated as a "Sherpa".

In this particular incident, the Sherpa had gone sick in Japan.

The only language speaker on board was an off duty Long haul Perth based Japanese cabin crew who was paxing home from his family in Japan.

SWH...FYI
 

1.I make no suggestion regarding the integrity of 747s
2.Customer Safety was my intention,hence the ammendment.
3.The sensor has been a known problem for some time on ALL these aircraft,not just QF.
4.I have written reports, emails etc.regarding a number of safety issues with respect to systems and aircraft fitouts....The response...deafening silence.
Why?
It will cost money to fix the problems.
5.You obviously don`t work for QF or you would realize that safety has become lip service.
6.If you do work for QF then perhaps you are part of the problem.
7.I have no problem with service offered by PER shorthaul crew.
My attitude has and always will be "Safety above Service".
Something that that myopic prick Dixon seems to have forgotten.
Now,anything else you need clarified,feel free.I am only too happy to oblige

travel thickness,

Is there an integrity issue with any aircarft type in the fleet ?

Not part of the problem, just sick of hearing everthing is safety issue when in general its an industrial issue made to sound like an safety issue.

:sad:

SWH...perception
 

I have no IR barrow to push.
Regarding the scarebus its what I hear,see and experience.
The aircraft is not robust
Its daily utilisation is the worst in the fleet.
Many of your colleagues(assuming you are pilot)think its crap
The LAMES are not impressed
The pax are not impressed.
I have an opinion...to which I am entitled.
You have an opinion...to which you are entitled .
Lets leave it at that...shall we?

You don't need to be a fluent speaker of a language to learn some simple safety basics.

Why doesn't the airline teach ALL CC to say the vital instructions required for passenger safety in the main language of the origin and destination of each flight. E.G. Brace, Jump, Run, Now, Stop, Go, Quick...?

Doesn't seem like that tall an order, does it?

VHCU

Threre was a language speaker on board who did the PA's for the crew.

He was a Perth L/H japanese F/A who was coming home from visiting family up there.

i say good on him for stepping in, whilst not on duty to get them out of the poo.

Like learning your Recalls/Memory Items in 2 different non-native languages? I don't think that would be a good idea. In the heat of the moment, you're bound to stuff it up.

Captain Bloggs

Good to see someone who's unafraid to scale the dizzy heights. I bet you know the word for beer in a few different languages. I'm just talking about exercising that memory gland for a few trolley-pushers. I bet if half of them remembered something it would be better than nothing.

The latest crash comic suggests assertive cabin crew can save lives in these situations. Let 'em be assertive in Japanese, French or German - maybe then the non-English-speaking xenophobes will sit up and take notice, drop their canapes and briskly jump onto the slides and get the heck outta there.

And if they did stuff it up, what's the worst thing that could happen? Would it be worse than the prospect of immolation?

VHCU

Cheerup,

Sorry; just expressing an opinion. I'll now go out and shoot myself. And no, I don't know "beer" in any language apart from English.

Thats right bloggs. God forbid you have an opinion in Oz that upsets some of the sweethearts. You instantly become a redneck, racist or xeonophobe or all of the above. Cabin crew have historically had indifferent results in completing evacuations in one language, let alone 2 or more. It is completely natural to revert to the native language, hence a multitude of nationalities on some airlines.

I dont want to start a Short Haul versus Long Haul battle here and I certainly will never defend the companies attitude towards cost cutting.

I operated (SYD base CSM operating with PER F/As) on this same flight a week before and was lucky enough to have a Language speaker provided on board, and it was brilliant, and I can definately see in an emergency how it is essential. I also would like to add that the Perth crew were excellent, especially their knowledge of the service and procedures, a passenger that night would not have known which division we operate in.

I personally know 7 of the 10 Cabin Crew involved in Saturday nights emergency, one who frequents this forum, and would like to congratulate them all on doing an excellent job.

Whether its Shorthaul, Longhaul, whatever, a textbook evacuation was carried out in under 90 seconds..with no lives lost..end of story..

:ok: