Dicey crosswind landings 09/27 Melbourne
 

With current strong northerlies at Tullamarine and the north-south runway being out of service, it is a good bet that ATC have enjoyed watching the crosswind crash landings on 09/27.

Talked to pilot passenger on an Air New Zealand 747 that was down the back when that aircraft did an assault crosswind landing and he said it was scary. What are the views from ATC in the tower at Tulla? There must be a few Pprune readers up in its lofty heights?

Maybe this was a bit dicey..
Plane catches fire on landing
April 09, 2005
THE wheels of a 747 freighter caught fire as it landed in Melbourne this afternoon.

A spokesman for Air Services Australia said firecrews rushed to the scene after the pilot of the Atlas Cargo aircraft sounded an alarm about 4pm (AEST).

As the plane was touching down in Melbourne, the pilot could see warning signs that the brakes, which are in the wheels of the 747-400, were overheating.

The aircraft was escorted back to the freight apron by three fire trucks and caught fire when it stopped, the spokesman said.

He said fire crews were keen to move the plane to the apron, fearing it would otherwise block the only runway in use now that work is underway at the airport to accommodate the new Airbus.

The spokesman said there were no injuries to the crew on board and the fire was put out easily.

“It was a routine response, it's not uncommon,” he said

Those bloody ATCs shutting the other runway for works then making the wind blow!!!! How dare they!!!

Bloggs, I said...KICK IT STRAIGHT!

As opposed to the 747-300 where they are in the overhead locker!:rolleyes:

What is an assault crosswind landing ?
Why was it scary ?

Bloggs,

I dont think its Boeing procedure to 'kick it straight', maybe some 74 jocks can clarify that.

However, well said.

Assault crosswind? They sound like weasel words Menen. But I know what you mean!!

Not super-important to kick them staight but it helps smooth out the touchdown.
FWIW the auto-land does not de-crab for landing, and the limit is 23 kts for that.
So in theory you could land with a 23 kt crosswind and not bother with the rudder much. It'd be pretty rough though!
I kick it straight about halfway through the flare.

Pretty p!ss poor brakes if they over heat whilst touching down. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but they were going for an exit on Alpha!

overheated brakes, and firetrucks chasing airline aircraft down the strip is not so uncommon here. That's why we G.A.types have to pay for fire crew we do not need or want.

I happened to be at the holding point and witnessed the landing of the 747 freighter (Atlas with an Air NZ callsign). It was a typical Rwy 27 landing in that he got caught out just like everyone else has on 27 (including me).

The problem with 27 is that it is downsloping runway with the threshold shielded from strong northerlies by hills to the north. Usually the approach looks fine down to around 100 feet or so, then you get a slight overshoot shear approaching the flare causing your aim point to drift down the runway, then you do a 'normal' subconscience flare - but the runway is falling away from you and there you go floating down the runway losing air speed. About that time you enter 'clean' air from the north and you start drifting towards the southern edge of the runway. Suddenly the far end of the runway is not that far away at all and you are approaching your last touchdown point. So you lower the nose to get the aircraft on the runway - that combined with bleeding airspeed and sideways drift makes for an undignified landing and smartarse comments from F/As and pax.

Thats exactly what happened to the freighter yesterday. He touched down hard approaching taxiway A with considerable sideways drift. The landing generates heaps of smoke (we thought he had blown some tyres at first) and he used every last foot of the runway pulling up (presumably with max braking). I'm not surprised that he developed some brake fires.

Good God are you seri.... Ha ha, just checked the username.

Dropped into MEL Rwy 27 the other morning from Tokyo.

At 500 ft the X wind was 38 knots, decreasing from 32 kts at 200 ft to 23 kts at touchdown.(add a few seconds lag for the IRS/GPS).
Makes the last few hundred feet hard in terms of coordination as well as concentration, especially after a 10 hour flight or thereabouts.

Anyone can get caught out, and that can apply to one and all.

Worm burning
 

Dicey xwind landings are not as spectacular as the heavys using every inch of 27 on dep. No grass left in the 09 undershoot and all worms have packed up for the box forrest.

Go arounds are a plenty for now.

Would be really good for all if you made the rapid or keep the speed up till the end on 27 or 09. Let us know what your plan is in the peek times re your exit.

Seen some hairy exits on (highspeed exit) alpha, landing 09. Don't expect anything quick on 09 ops re deps. Bring a cut lunch!. We can't turn anything until about 4-5 miles.

Tip of the Day. On 09, For all Props going west, tell the tower you can make a early hard left turn (inside the cgb noise abatement area), off the deck, and dep from November. In visual conditions of course...........

:ok:

Assault landing is a military term for a very firm touchdown with no flare and short ground run. This mimimises exposure time to enemy action.

Oh, you mean a carrier landing :rolleyes: ;)

John E. Dead right. Although I assaulted the runway at Nowra on my first landing in a Sea Fury - inadvertently.

Whats the carrier pilot's favourite saying?

"If you flare to land, then you squat to pee"

:D
TL

Describes my first solo :E ;) :p

Assault landings in helicopters are interesting to watch. Have seen a couple and they were not very successful.

Why so long for the turn off 09?
I thought the Radar departure was 1500', turn ass hdg... unless ATC are keeping you on rwy hdg for seperation ?!?!?!

Should be an interesting few months .....

:confused: :eek: :sad: :confused: :eek: :sad:

Some bone crunching landing coming our way ... :} :} :} :} :}

Your assigned HDG will always be 080, Due to noise abatement area to the NE and EN airspace to the south.

gets better every day..........!:O


:ok:

counted 3 go arounds in 6 hours on Saturday (and they are only the ones I saw on smoke breaks !)

On a different tack (pardon the pun), does anyone have any aerial photos of the works on 34?

I saw a 717 land in about 25-30 knot x-wind on Sunday and thought he was shot down, how he didn't hit the tail and wing was beyond me.
Ill give him this though it was very gusty.

Just of interest what's the 737 x-wind limit and is it lower for QF F'Os as I heard there was a 20 knot limit for the first 6 months on line.

Menen,
Saw the ANZ 747 landing on the 9th.We were Taxing back after landing.Looked Quite unstable until 30 feet then droped like a stone onto the the runway.Your friend who was in the back had reson to be scared!!

QF FO xwind limit 20kts
Capt - a/c limit
Incl gusts

We flew in to Melbourne that afternoon in a B737-800. The new ATIS was quoting the x-wind gusting up to 35 kts. The controller was asking everone who was inbound what their crosswind limits were.

We quoted our limit of 33 kts. Virgin quoted a crosswind limit of 40 kts! What the ...? How do two operators of similar equipment (B737-700 vs B737-800) operate to vastly different demonstrated crosswind limits?

Has anyone here actually landed with 40 kts crosswind? At 140 kts that's a drift angle of almost 17 degrees!

Oh and to the unproffesional smart arce that said over the radio "and the penny drops" after the controller asked us a number of times to repeat our crosswind limit of 33 kts while the gusts were 35 kts, I always carry diversion fuel when the destination operates with only one runway. Sorry to disappoint you.
:rolleyes:

operationals manual states:
"take-off and landing crosswind guidelines in B737 FCTM pages blah blah blah shall be taken to be VB operating limitations. Narrow runway limitations are in B737 operations manual, volume 1-Limitations."
thats all i have to say about that!!!!:ok:

Blip

The Boeing 737 FCTM, page 6.42, Landing Crosswind Guidelines states,

737NG dry runway = 40 kts.

Prop's????

Are you with Virgin or Qantas? As long as it is not above the manufacturers limit, the max Xwind limit can vary between airlines.

arrived the other day in a 744 from sin,crosswind at 1500 feet was 60 kts,dropping to 21 at touchdown,all from the north so it did get interesting. used brakes 3 and partial reverse with 30 flap and you certainly notice that downslope. platelayers moaned about the arrival even after being warned,but we werent messing around as rwy 27 is the shortest on the network by a long shot. someone is likely to go off the end before 16/34 is finished in may.

'partial reverse'? :confused:

Reverse idle,partial reverse,full reverse ,its in the book and l didnt write it.

I think the point Woftam is making is that if you 'weren't mucking around on the shortest runway on the network' why weren't you using full reverse? This is a question not a criticism.

You got it Mr McGoo.
:ok:

The Autobrake system commands a constant rate of aircraft deceleration depending on the setting (1,2,3,4, or Max). Therefore, the only effect of using partial reverse instead of full reverse is that the brakes work harder but the rate of deceleration is the same.

As you said: using less than max reverse thrust makes the brakes work harder in order to achieve the same autobrake deceleration setting.

The usual technique (especially on short runways) is to use max reverse thrust (which is most effective at higher speeds) which results in less energy being absorbed by the wheel brakes. Using less than max reverse thrust puts more energy into the brakes and therefore puts them closer to overheating. If suddenly you need a max braking effort (eg overrunning the runway) the brakes have less capability in them and max reverse thrust is less effective at lower speeds (and you risk overcooking the engines).

So of the two techniques using less than max reverse thrust has potentially a bigger downside to it. So my original question remains: why use less than max reverse on a short runway - what is the benefit to be gained that makes risking running off the end of the runway worth it?

FWIW, I understand that the final concrete pour occured last night, well ahead of schedule due to the good weather.

There is a web cam and regular update, here.

:)