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-   -   Erebus 25 years on (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/152934-erebus-25-years.html)

Hempy 1st Jul 2016 07:56

Beattie v. United States, 690 F. Supp. 1068 (D.D.C. 1988) :: Justia


Conclusion

Upon consideration of all the evidence,[82] the Court finds as a fact that the disaster at Mt. Erebus on November 28, 1979, was caused by a combination of (1) the careless attitude of the New Zealand airline in switching flight plans for Flight 901 as and when it did, without a thorough briefing of the flight crew regarding the switch and its implications, and (2) the careless performance of the crew which did not avail itself of several available fail-safe systems, any one of which would have enabled it to discover in ample time that it was not on a proper course and would have permitted it to alter that course without significant difficulty. The air traffic controllers at McMurdo Station had no reason to suspect that these errors in the most fundamental principles of planning and airmanship had occurred, and that they had profoundly altered what would otherwise have been a safe and uneventful flight. Absent such knowledge, they had no basis for suspecting that Flight 901 was in mortal peril, or for taking extraordinary measures that even the flight crew never requested them to take.

3 Holer 1st Jul 2016 07:58

prospector, re -read the 4th requirement please (politely).

4. Descent to be coordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in the area.

The radar descent was not for terrain avoidance, it was for traffic separation.

901 was advised "no traffic for descent" but to descend in VMC and keep centre advised of altitude. I assume in case traffic became a factor.

The crew complied with the 4th requirement to the letter.

3 Holer 1st Jul 2016 08:05


The air traffic controllers at McMurdo Station had no reason to suspect that these errors in the most fundamental principles of planning and airmanship had occurred, and that they had profoundly altered what would otherwise have been a safe and uneventful flight. Absent such knowledge, they had no basis for suspecting that Flight 901 was in mortal peril, or for taking extraordinary measures that even the flight crew never requested them to take.
Absolutely Hempy. That is why Mahon and Vette were applauded for being 10 years ahead of their time re: Human Factors. Thanks to their exhaustive investigation, they discovered a toxic safety culture in the Air NZ flight department and administration of the Antarctic sightseeing flights. Collin's and his crew never had a chance.

megan 1st Jul 2016 14:26


Sorry, cannot answer that, even with theory.
Unable to answer what exactly? The fact that other crews did not comply with SOPs? If that is the case, you're being just a little too cute, and you take the position of the gal in your video.

It did, but only very briefly.
How was this established?
Have no idea how it was established, other than Chippindale said so.

Hempy 1st Jul 2016 14:41

From the same ruling..


It was entirely reasonable of the air traffic controllers to expect that that was the option Flight 901 would exercise. The air traffic controllers could not possibly assume that the crew, which was proceeding visually, did not have the high terrain in the area, specifically Mt. Erebus, in sight. Alternatively, the controllers could not be expected to assume that the crew would choose to descend below the known elevation of the terrain if it could not see where the flight was going.[56] According to the expert witnesses, a pilot should first fix his position, particularly if he is in uncontrolled airspace, and then, and only then, after he has determined that it is safe, make his descent.[57] This rule holds true whether or not radar assistance is anticipated. The evidence at trial also showed that, for Flight 901 to descend below 16,000 feet while lost would have been contrary to the most basic tenets of good airmanship and stated company policy.

3 Holer 1st Jul 2016 14:54


......for Flight 901 to descend below 16,000 feet while lost
Why assumed lost? What evidence is there to support such a statement?

According to the expert witnesses,
What witnesses?
Speculation and argumentative.

3 Holer 1st Jul 2016 15:19

Let's take a deep breath and get back on track here. I am not sure we are still debating the Mahon v Chippindale reports on the Erebus disaster.

Hempy, you are quoting text from a court case 9 years after the event. Hindsight is a magnificent thing. Mahon and Vette were ten years ahead of their time in the contribution to Human Factors and the latent error model in their findings of this accident. Is the chronological sequence so accurate to be coincidental? You decide.

prospector, you have drifted a little left of centre (IMHO) with your pizza lady scenario.
Maybe you can explain the relevance, please (politely).

megan 1st Jul 2016 16:14

Hempy, the report was a good find. I found it interesting that it pointed out that the McMurdo controllers would only be available if they had Deep Freeze aircraft operating. So it was entirely feasible that the sight seeing flights would have no one to talk to. Puts their cloud break procedure in the trash can, and once again points out the lack of planning by the airline.

Hempy 1st Jul 2016 16:39


Originally Posted by 3 Holer
Why assumed lost? What evidence is there to support such a statement?

http://www.southpolestation.com/triv...crashsite1.jpg

prospector 1st Jul 2016 20:49


Unable to answer what exactly? The fact that other crews did not comply with SOPs? If that is the case, you're being just a little too cute, and you take the position of the gal in your video.
Can we use your

Professor Diane Vaughan developed the “Normalisation of Deviance” theory
in a different scenario.

I see and hear of many cars going through red traffic lights. I decide to do the same, however I collide with another car going through a green light.

Would Professor Diane Vaughan theory be a credible defence??

Hempy,
Irrefutable evidence

ampan 1st Jul 2016 20:50

Someone who doesn't know where they are is "lost" but so to is someone who thinks they know where they are but are wrong. I would venture to suggest that the latter person is the more lost, which describes Captain Collins situation from Cape Hallett into jaws of Lewis Bay on Ross Island. At that point he moved into the former situation, in that he didn't know where he was.

PapaHotel6 1st Jul 2016 21:57


Someone who doesn't know where they are is "lost" but so to is someone who thinks they know where they are but are wrong. I would venture to suggest that the latter person is the more lost, which describes Captain Collins situation from Cape Hallett into jaws of Lewis Bay on Ross Island. At that point he moved into the former situation, in that he didn't know where he was.
Well, I'm not sure. It's surely unreasonable to condemn someone who has no idea they are lost.

But the question we have in front of us is "was Capt. Collins justified in believing in his original position, to the extent of doing a VMC (putting aside VMC issues for a moment) descent down to 1500'?". The answer is surely no - for all the many reasons already discussed.


I see and hear of many cars going through red traffic lights. I decide to do the same, however I collide with another car going through a green light.

Would Professor Diane Vaughan theory be a credible defence??
According to Megan, yes.

Megan said :


I found it interesting that it pointed out that the McMurdo controllers would only be available if they had Deep Freeze aircraft operating. So it was entirely feasible that the sight seeing flights would have no one to talk to. Puts their cloud break procedure in the trash can, and once again points out the lack of planning by the airline.
Let's say, for arguments sake, that you're right. Let's agree for a moment that Air NZ's cloud break procedure was actually completely unusable and invalid. It doesn't matter - because the flight never got to that point! It's not as if Collins positioned himself for the procedure, briefed his crew, then said "what they hey! There's no-one at home at Mc Murdo!! Those dorks! What are we going to do do now? Have to try and go down VMC through this hole, I guess......". He was offered a radar guided descent. He abandoned that idea, simultaneously it would seem with failure to establish VHF comms and seeing a hole in the cloud. And down he went. Without even cross checking his position off the INS.

As an aside, have a look at this video at around the 7:00 mark. A flight crew in a mountainous area above cloud paying a lot of attention to MSA.


3 Holer 2nd Jul 2016 03:53

Hempy & prospector


In the early hours of 28 November a navigational coordinate in the flight plan presented at the briefing was changed. The airline’s navigation section believed it was making a minor adjustment to the flight’s longstanding destination point, but a typing error some 14 months earlier meant it had actually shifted this point some 27 nautical miles to the east. Instead of the IFR route taking Flight TE901 over flat sea ice, as Collins and Cassin had been briefed, it would take them directly over Mt Erebus, a 3794-metre-high active volcano. The flight crew were not alerted to the change. On the morning of 28 November they received the adjusted 'correct' flight plan and entered these coordinates into the on board computer.
Trying to introduce false, implied (circumstantial) evidence the crew were lost with an old photo, is mischievous and shows a lack of common decency to the families of the victims. Shameful and very unprofessional.

ampan 2nd Jul 2016 05:07

The feelings of the families are not relevant. I thought that would have been obvious. It's like referring to Hitler and the Nazis when losing an argument.


The phrase "a navigational co-ordinate in the flight plan presented at the briefing was changed" is debatable, at the very best. We have the audio-tape, clearly stating that the waypoint was at McMurdo Station. We have the flight plan that F/O Cassin used to program the simulator, which also had the waypoint at McMurdo Station. We have the accepted fact that none of the attendees queried the position of the waypoint. And we have them all practising an out-and-back cloud-break procedure from overhead McMurdo Station, not a straight line descent from 27 miles to the west.


Everyone left that briefing under the assumption that the waypoint was at McMurdo Station. It was only Captain Collins private preparatio0ns the night before that led him to believe otherwise.

Hempy 2nd Jul 2016 06:08

3 Holer,


Originally Posted by Cambridge English Dictionary
lost
adjective UK /lɒst/

Not knowing where you are and how to get to a place.

The CVR has several references to the fact that they were uncertain of their exact position. It's also quite obvious that they didn't know how to get where they were going. They crashed into a mountain. How much more 'lost' do you think someone needs to be before you claim they actually were, in fact, lost?

p.s you asked for the evidence....As prospector says, it's irrefutable. If Collins and the rest of his crew knew where they were, they wouldn't have flown into a mountain now, would they?

ampan 2nd Jul 2016 06:21

This reminds me of Mahon's silly word games about the crew being certain of their position. The more I read that Honourable gentleman's writings, the more convinced I am as to what a stupid blinkered old twit he really was.

Ollie Onion 2nd Jul 2016 06:48

Of course they were lost, doesn't matter if they knew it or not! The plane flew into a mountain that they didn't know they were going to hit, how more lost can you be?

3 Holer 2nd Jul 2016 06:51


If Collins and the rest of his crew knew where they were, they wouldn't have flown into a mountain now, would they?
RUBBISH

That is as ridiculous as saying:

I'll blindfold you and if you run straight ahead you will end up in the swimming pool. After the blindfold is placed on the unsuspecting "victim", the swimming pool is replaced with a brick wall.

megan 2nd Jul 2016 07:46


I see and hear of many cars going through red traffic lights. I decide to do the same, however I collide with another car going through a green light.

Would Professor Diane Vaughan theory be a credible defence??
According to Megan, yes.
That was not what I intimated. Neither of you apparently have an understanding of the theory, which encompasses the social aspect of expectations placed on an individual by organisations. Should prospector be driving a B double truck, or such, the pressures placed on him by his employer for an on time delivery may induce the drivers of that company to use the intimidating bulk of their vehicle to run red lights. Not only does it save time stopping at the light, but also working up through the gears accelerating back up to speed. It becomes an instituted practice within the company, until they collect that car coming through on the green.

Everyone left that briefing under the assumption that the waypoint was at McMurdo Station. It was only Captain Collins private preparatio0ns the night before that led him to believe otherwise.
That is absolute nonsense. You have a thing about the briefing, and everything you've posted in relation to that has been misrepresented. Sorry for the lengthy following, but draw your own conclusions from the evidence, compared to ampans erroneous statements.

Two of the three pilots had received the specially devised audio visual, written and simulator route qualification briefing. F/O Lucas had not.

An examination of this briefing revealed certain significant items were not included;

c. The way in which the airline route varied from the normal military route, which followed the reporting points depicted on the RNC, particularly on the leg from Cape Hallett south to McMurdo.

d. Topographical maps for the flight. With the exception of a photostat copy of a small inset enlargement of a map of Ross Island (1:1,000,000), these were not issued to the crew until the day of the flight, and were of a relatively small scale (1:3,000,000 and 1:5,000,000) Although topographical charts for the area were available on the day of the flight the only “charts” of the area below the flight planned track from Cape Hallett to McMurdo available at the initial briefing were:

The passenger information map
(an overprint on a 1:16,000.000 chart)
The RNC chart and
A slide depicting a schematic diagram taken from the rear of a passenger brochure

All of which showed a track proceeding o the true west of Mt Erebus down the McMurdo Sound. While these “charts” were not intended to be used for navigation the track shown was not that to be followed by TE 901. Several members of earlier crews were of the opinion that the inbound track to McMurdo was intended to be on an alignment which was over the sea level ice to a point adjacent to McMurdo but to the west of that base. (The dialogue which accompanied the audio visual briefing referred to the RNC chart when discussing the appropriate flight levels for the flight.)

The strip map of the route from Christchurch to McMurdo issued on the day of the flight also had two tracks printed on it both depicting a passage to the west of Ross Island. A track and distance diagram issued at the route qualification briefing correctly depicted the intended flight plan track from Cape Hallett to the McMurdo TACAN, but this showed no relationship to geographical location or terrain.

The audio visual presentation of the route qualification briefing showed two slides purporting to be of the track between Cape Hallett and the McMurdo TACAN. The first which only showed Cape Adare, 73 miles northwest of the Cape Hallett waypoint, accompanies the statement “We are almost 77° south proceeding from Cape Hallett towards Ross Island at Flight Level 330. Mt Erebus, almost 13000 feet, ahead. McMurdo Station and Scott Base lie 20 miles beyond the mountain in the direction of grid north”. A second slide accompanies the statement “Now approaching Erebus at 16000 feet the minimum sector altitude. In VMC a descent to this minimum altitude up to 50 miles before McMurdo will be found advantageous for viewing”. This slide gave no indication of the relationship of the track to Mt Erebus, as it shows a view of Mt Erebus taken from behind the co-pilot’s seat with the aircraft heading north.

The computer flight plan used at the briefing had been in error for 14 months in that it showed the destination point for McMurdo as two degrees ten minutes of longitude to the west of the intended turning point. This error was not corrected in the computer until the day before the flight. Although it was intended that it be drawn to the attention of the previous crew, immediately prior to their departure this was not done, nor was it mentioned during the preflight dispatch planning for the crew of the accident flight. The crew was shown a copy of the erroneous flight plan with the incorrect co-ordinates at the route qualification briefing but the flight plan issued on the day of the flight was correct.
and

As the chief inspector went on to say in a succeeding paragraph, there were provided at these briefings two charts and a slide depicting a schematic diagram which each showed a track proceeding down McMurdo Sound. This was in conflict with a reference in the recorded text of the briefing to the actual latitude and longitude co-ordinates of McMurdo Station as being the destination point of the flight, and in view of the fact that the briefing described a track direct to McMurdo, then these three diagrams were of course, in conflict with the theoretical Cape Hallettto McMurdo track to which the briefing referred.

ln addition to these inadequacies revealed in the report of the chief inspector, there were two other features of the antarctic briefings which were unsatisfactory. In the first place there was no photograph showing pilots a general view of McMurdo Sound and Ross Island as the aircraft approached from the north. This is of particular significance in view ofthe fact that the McMurdo area bears little relationship to what might be expected to be observed from a topographical map of the area. The other
deficiency was that the briefing did not include a topographical map of the area upon which the flight planned track from Cape Hallett to McMurdo had been imposed. Such a map would have indicated to pilots the precise course to which the nav track oi the aircraft would take them.

There were two mistakes in the slides which were shown. One slide purported to show Cape Hallett whereas in fact it was a slide of Cape Adare located 73 miles north·west of the Cape Hallett waypoint. The second slide showed a view of Mt. Erebus and was accompanied by the statement that the aircraft was "Now approaching Erebus at 16,000 feet the minimum sector altitude". However, the photograph of the mountain had been taken from the true south of Mt. Erebus and not from the true north, and the result was that a view of this photograph showed Mt. Erebus over to the left of the direction in which the aircraft was heading. This error accordingly coincided with the McMurdo Sound approach depicted by the three diagrams to which I have previously referred. As to the simulator exercise, this did not give the pilot any view of the terrain to be observed on the flight. It was programmed as if the flight was being made at night time. This is because the airline‘s DC10 flight simulator is only programmed to the night lighting of an aerodrome, and in the case of antarctic briefings the position of the runways at Williams Field were shown in the distance as two intercepting lines of lights. The simulator instruction adequately covered the compass and navigation conversion procedures already referred to. The evidence given by Captain Wilson and by Captain Johnson as to the verbal content of the RCU briefing was not accepted by the majority of the pilots who attended the briefings. Indeed, there was one pilot who said that upon listening to the evidence given before the Commission in relation to the briefing which he had attended, he was led to wonder whether he had been at the same briefing.

The RCU briefing for antarctic flights was primarily inadequate, in my opinion, in that--

(a) The co—ordination of the United States Navy air traffic control system with the proposed overfly was not properly explained.

(b) The pictorial representations showed the observers that the flight path was down McMurdo Sound and these displays would, not unnaturally, take precedence over the spoken words indicating a direct track from Cape Hallett to McMurdo Station and indicating the NDB coordinates as the destination waypoint.

(c] The dangers of flying over uniformly white terrain under an overcast sky were not directly referred to.

(d) The prepared text of the briefing and the constant reference to minimum safe altitudes of 16,000 feet and 6,000 feet were verbally contradicted by Captain Wilson in the 1978 and 1979 flights by indicating to the crews that they were authorised to descend to any altitude approved by the United States Navy Air Traffic Controller, and it is significant to point out that at the time when the chief inspector signed and published his report, he had not been told by Captain Wilson, or by anyone else, that this specific authority was orally given to flight crews during the course of the audio—visual presentation to which I have referred. Captain Wilson admitted this.

[e) Captain Wilson, the supervisor of the RCU briefing procedures, had not flown to McMurdo Sound. He had applied to go on such a flight, so as to improve his knowledge of antarctic conditions, but his application had been declined by Flight Operations Division.

(f] Most important of all, crews were not shown a topographical map with the nav track plotted thereon.

prospector 2nd Jul 2016 09:29


That was not what I intimated. Neither of you apparently have an understanding of the theory,
I do believe I understand what you intimated, but for this specific case fact overcomes theory.


It becomes an instituted practice within the company, until they collect that car coming through on the green.
In that case, would the company be at fault? perhaps morally, but they never actually broke the law, the driver did.

You have seen a copy of the riding orders the crew were given, and the date it was issued, . it does state specifically disregard any previous briefing, it would cover the companies obligation, it neither intimated nor required any illegal action.

The crew, captain, took it upon themselves to disregard all those provisions required for descent below MSA.

Whether they were VMC or not is really irrelevant, they disregarded all the rules that had been put in place specifically to avoid Mt Erebus. And it is now very obvious why those rules were as they were. Re radar, they were never identified on radar, which surely must be the first requirement before the radar can clear them for anything? they requested and were given VMC descent.

You, and many others use the argument they were inexperienced in Antarctic flying, well surely that would be a very good reason for sticking to the rules? They may have been inexperienced in that particular sort of flying, but they were both very experienced in total flying background, and would well have understood the briefing they received from the Met people on the ground at McMurdo. It was below minimums for the only approved let down procedure, and no good at all for sightseeing. If they were arriving back at Christchurch and the weather was below minimums for a published approach do you think it would be acceptable to request a VMC descent and descend to 1500ft at 260kts, with the local expert saying "I will let you know where we are when I know myself?


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