I just love this comment, ftrplt.

No it doesn't, and no it shouldn't. Same should be true of pilot's salaries. Care to justify why it should be any different? Because I'm sure a regional pilot who earns as much as a cleaner would be overjoyed to hear your rationalisation.

Next. Claret is NOT being berated personally. The IPG is being berated collectively by quite a few individuals.

Next. You have intimated throughout your posts that we are worth less and this is due to your version of "market forces".

Ftrplt. There was a very good reason why you weren't voted on to the AIPA com. In all of your posts above you have rationalised away any justification for maintaining pilots remuneration. That, combined with your arrogant knucklehead mentality.

Yes, I'm an idealist. But that's not a bad thing. I don't for an instant think that everyone's out to get me. I'm convinced that everyone's out there for themselves, and thats what has got us into this mess. Be they management, AIPA, or the IPG, we are in a world of sh1t, and unless people like you, ftrplt, cease rationalising it all away, the future looks bleak indeed.

this is getting tiresome; but anyway:

.If you cant see this then I cant even begin to try and justify it. Are you really trying to tell me that market forces dont, or shouldnt, have any impact on pilots conditions?

who says they do, sure its not a case of believing something because it supports your belief

same thing really, and Im sure that was what CAPT Claret meant. I lay no blame at the feet of the IPG; if they didnt take a deal, someone else would have. Get the best you can, then work on it from there. You have previously asserted that they should have held on for more, and they would have got it. You are in no better position than I am to know whether this would have been possible. You are making an asserion to support your position.

I do chuckle though that AIPA is now finally interested in covering all Qantas pilots - a little late me thinks. Sounds like a better place to slate some blame.

No, you have decided to believe that is what I meant. I do not believe pilots are worth less. I actually believe there are lots of professions 'worth' more, they just dont receive it.

What determines worth?? Why does a golfer who never wins anything get over 1 million USD a year??

Why do people pay millions of dollars for what I believe to be worthless pieces of art??

By the way, I believe Air Force pilots are worth more, they dont get it either.

You will win NO argument about money if your #1 argument is your own perception of your own WORTH.

No I have not. I have indicated that I believe the reasons for the downward spiral are more complex and mulit-faceted than simply 'an attempt to smash the conditions of pilots' from 'management and their cronies' and those 'criminals at Jetstar'.

If you dont understand (or accept) the real reasons for this situation then you have no chance of being successful in attempts to maintain / improve / or minimise the degradation of pilots conditions. That is my whole point.

I have never indicated that I believe our 'worth' deserves lower conditions.

Just so you completely understand - nothing I have written has rationalised away anything. I have only stated the reasons WHY I believe we are in this situation, which I believe need to be considered when determining how we go about stopping / minimising it. Believe it or not, we both want the same thing - we seem to believe the cause lies in different areas.

Interesting that you believe you speak for over 2000 pilots in Qantas though.

Woomera

This moron is never going to give up. He's a one man band moron and quite frankly I and many others are sick to death of the crap he is posting. Lock this thread now! He is a gutless little w2nker hiding behind a computer screen. He has no balls and to date has not confronted anyone in the IPG or Aipa. He is giving mainline a bad name and I am aware there are many out there searching for this idiots true identity.

Adama. This discussion was interesting until you came along. You son, are quite pathetic. You call me names and tell me that I'm hiding behind a computer screen, when you are doingexactly the same thing. Hypocracy springs to mind. But, you go on threatening, and name calling if it makes you feel good.

But don't you dare attempt to take away my right to free speech.

ftrplt. Be careful what you write, people might just believe it!

Children, Listen up!
 

Kiddies, let's stop getting personal eh??
Commander Adama, this thread will remain open for the time being.
However, it appears that any time a member is critical of your pilot group you demand the thread be closed.
A search of your posts reveals that the majority of them contain personal swipes at other posters. You are drawing the fire you complain about.
If you start making some useful contributions to this forum, instead of slagging off at everybody that holds an opinion different to yours, you might find things cool off a bit.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

CRANKY WOOMERA

Prop

If you want to make a fool of yourself that is your free right.

You are so bloody naive that I am led to believe you are very young with no life experience. The EBA is not perfect. But hey prop do we hold out when we are already sitting on a cliff. Wait for AIPA to come to the bloody rescue.

I IPG has just secured a job for at least 20 years on a brand spanking new Airbus on rates of pay better than when Virgin started and now almost on par with.

And you be careful about stating Jetstar pilots degrade the industry. Most of the senior direct entry pilots lost their jobs in the pilot dispute. You would have no idea what it would be like to go from a Captain to a gGardner and see your pay slashed. Ask your seniour captain when he joined? and as for 767 pay. Well that's ok when it suits.

Well, good morning to you too, Adama. Still can't control yourself, mate? I would suggest to you that this is a quality which is inappropriate on the flight deck. No wonder you failed QF testing.

You just don't listen, do you adama? Another poor quality for the cockpit!

Despite what you have stated in your grammatically incorrect diatribe, I will state again for the record. The actions of the IPG in accepting a pay deal that is substandard has adversely affected the remainder of the industry.

Now can we go back to discussing this rationally?

This new touchy feely Proplever might be able to explain why Aipa shunned the pulse guys 2 and a half years ago.

We werent good enough then but now there has to be coverage of everyone. For the greater cause of course. Now, proplever, did your group, as a whole then contribute to the current situation? Being better than everyone else has left you in a bit of a hypocritical situation hasnt it mate. Look at the figures 2400 as against to 200 pilots.

So the stronger organisation allows the smaler group to fend for itself. Now the stronger group is critical of the smaller group because it did the best it could for itself and its members. Figure that one out. I think your argument is hollow prop and only serves to highlight your ignorance and lack of respect for others. If this is what being a professional aviator is well the industry is screwed.

I would suggest you step back from the keyboard and have a look at the facts. I feel you have definately flogged this poor old horse to death.

DM

DM, would you care to tell me why you think that AIPA had some kind of responsibility towards you guys two and a half years ago? Because we (read AIPA) didn't.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I didn't see this coming, and nor did most out there, despite the fortune telling "I-told-you-so-er's" on this forum.

At the time, the IPG was just another pilot body. In fact if I recall correctly, your status was as unpopular then as it is now. The fact that we (read AIPA) should have eaten humble pie and accepted you into the organisation to ensure your present deal was better than it now is, and thereby protecting our future is now moot. It is done.

BUT. Each individual is responsible and accountable for their own actions. The question remains. Why did YOU (read IPG) offer to fly the A320 on the same terms as the 717. For me, that is unforgiveable.

YOu must be getting a hell of a saddle rash prop. THe old high horse has been ridden hard recently.

Bit sore 'round the crutch, mate, but for different reasons!

You didn't answer MY question, DM. Why do you think that AIPA should have welcomed the IPG with open arms two and a half years ago? Without using the value of 20/20 hindsight...

Originally posted by DM No DM I can't explain why that happened either. And I'm sorry it happened. I, and 2000 other members, didn't know about it at the time and, as they say, AIPA is only as strong as its members.

I, and I believe the majority of AIPA members, believe that the time has come to rectify the mistake. AIPA should have coverage of all pilots in the QANTAS group and beyond. This includes regionals, anyone who's passed the QANTAS recruitment process and, I hope, anyone flying any aeroplane in Oz.

Rather than keep bitching and cussing at each other let's focus on what we all want (decent jobs at decent pay) and direct our efforts towards management who continue to want to push our conditions down.

I've never been big on unions but after my time in aviation I see the need for them is as pressing as ever.

Up the proles!!;)

What I find ridiculous about the whole 'Low Cost' thing with Jetstar is that all the qualifed jobs, such as Pilots, FA, Load Controllers etc are all getting below what would be considered a industry standard.

YET the baggage handlers are on the same deal as they are with QF!!! What an absolute disgrace!!!! Just goes to show that Qantas Management aren't as tough as they are making out to be and will only get away with as much as the staff will let them when it comes to wages. They sttod together behind the union and they get the same money as if they were loading a QF 737.

Anyway it's all been said before but becuase Pilots cannot get together and act as a collective group they will end up getting paid less than the baggage handlers. In some sectors it is happening already.

I wonder if Allan Joyce is getting 'low cost' wages too??

Thats because they are in a union that knows how to look after its members, the TWU.

I am interested in knowing what is the difference between loading a 737, 717 or a 320. Same with flying them. Isn't it the same job. If you make the same mistake you get the same consequence.

Not being narky, just interested.

Thats because they are in a union that knows how to look after its members, the TWU.

Bonvol

What the!!!!

Low Cost = Low Wages. That is the only difference!! All other costs will balance themselves out in time. As Jetstar (and Virgin for that matter) gets bigger there will be a rise in costs. It all looks you beaut now with a simple route structure and new aircraft. But as it gets bigger and expands costs will also have to rise. For Virgin their turnaround times will slow down as they take on transferring passengers and freight. Something that wasn't there at the beginning.

However by screwing the staff for all their worth that is one cost LCC have managed to keep down. Everything else will either be the same as 'legacy' carriers, or will rise over time. For example you won't get a cheap, fuel, parts, aircraft, simulators, landing fees, terminal fees, enroute charges etc etc etc just 'cause you want to be a low cost carrier. You will be paying the same as everyone else if not more if your volumes aren't that high.

Terminal Fees are something that Virgin has been bitching about the last year. They appear to have the attitude that they should get a discount just because they are a LCC.

Noone except the stupid staff will reduce their fees/wages/charges just because you want to be a low-cost carrier.


Just out of interest what will the guys be getting that load the bags compared to pilots?????!!!!!!!!!

scud-runner

Virgin already handle transferring pax and freight and have done since almost day one. In fact last Wed they shipped 20 tonnes out of SYD for the day.

When have Virgin been bitching about terminal fees. I haven't heard anything since before they moved in to SYD T2 over 18 months ago.

I asked what is the difference between flying and loading a 717, 737, 320. Being LCC makes no difference in the actual tasks. The answer is there is no difference so why are there different rates of pay.