Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?
Trolling through D&G, I came upon the now locked ‘Derogatory Comments’ thread. It was a shame, (if inevitable), to see it locked, if only because of the last post from Desert Digger.
Desert Digger echoes my own long-held sentiments to a ‘T’ with that comment, but then goes on to say “And all thanks to the scabs and heroes of '89. So for you idiots who want to bleat "get over it", it will be you, undoubtedly the youthful pilots of today, who will pay a higher price professionally, than anyone who can claim to be an '89er.”
I suspect he’s also right to some degree in his last comment. ‘89 certainly would have played some part in the seemingly endless downward spiral of working conditions the industry in Oz has suffered over the last decade – if not immediately for the heroic few who enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) incredibly good wages thanks to it. (You can be sure that few upcoming management trainees completely ignore it the way so many younger pilots seem to do judging by their comments on this site.)
But there are many more factors than 1989 at play here, so could we discuss this with a slightly wider brush? Do you believe it is going to get as bad as DD (and I) think it will? One hundred and twenty years ago, to be an ‘engineer’ on a train – today’s humble train driver - was an extremely well paid and highly respected position. Until around 1970, a merchant seaman officer enjoyed similar high recompense and prestige.
Both are now ‘navy blue singlets and thongs’ positions in the main, in the merchant marine case, done by poorly paid and sometimes dubiously trained ‘professionals’ from Third World countries.
I can’t speak with any real knowledge of what caused the descent of the railways to their present state. However, the merchant marine reached the position it is in today after ‘bright’ MBAs forty years ago saw a way to save money by ‘dumbing down’ the job with Third World (read ‘cheap’) labour, both seamen as well as officers. Cargo shipping today suffers quite horrendous losses at sea, which, because Westerners are seldom involved, gets almost no coverage in the Western media. Now many shipping companies have come to see that the current ‘cheap’ setup has been a horrible mistake (and is anything but cheap), but it’s too late. The rump of professional seamen officers is gone, they were not replaced over the last 30 years, and even if (magically), a large number of young men of the same calibre as used to apply to be merchant marine officers were somehow to come forward to take up jobs in the industry, there’s no one and no system in place to train them.
There were once many young men who had a passion for the sea every bit as deep as the passion many of us hold for Aviation. Today, it’s hard to believe there’ll ever be a shortage of young men and women who’ll want to fly aeroplanes, (but I’d lay London to a brick that someone said that forty years ago about the merchant navy).
So, as uncomfortable as it might be to face the fact, will we see a different kind of recruit into the airline ranks in the not too distant future? The current enormous outlay in time, effort and money to even qualify for the first rung of the ladder (with no guarantee of employment at the end of it) will surely make it less and less attractive to someone planning a career in the industry if they can see no meaningful recompense (or let’s be honest, prestige?) for all that effort except the joy of tooling about the sky in an airliner.
So, is Aviation, or the vast majority of it outside an ever reducing core of major Flag Carriers, destined for the same fate as the merchant marine? (And will the aviation industry, like the shipping companies, discover (too late) that they’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water?)
Sorry, Woomera, if this isn’t the most appropriate forum for this, but it’s every bit as important, in my opinion at least, as many of the other topics I see left here, and I suspect there are many, like me, who rarely look at the other forums within D&G.
The days of the professional pilot are numbered, and soon you will all be relegated to coming to work in navy blue singlets, thongs, and a handkerchief tied around your head.
I suspect he’s also right to some degree in his last comment. ‘89 certainly would have played some part in the seemingly endless downward spiral of working conditions the industry in Oz has suffered over the last decade – if not immediately for the heroic few who enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) incredibly good wages thanks to it. (You can be sure that few upcoming management trainees completely ignore it the way so many younger pilots seem to do judging by their comments on this site.)
But there are many more factors than 1989 at play here, so could we discuss this with a slightly wider brush? Do you believe it is going to get as bad as DD (and I) think it will? One hundred and twenty years ago, to be an ‘engineer’ on a train – today’s humble train driver - was an extremely well paid and highly respected position. Until around 1970, a merchant seaman officer enjoyed similar high recompense and prestige.
Both are now ‘navy blue singlets and thongs’ positions in the main, in the merchant marine case, done by poorly paid and sometimes dubiously trained ‘professionals’ from Third World countries.
I can’t speak with any real knowledge of what caused the descent of the railways to their present state. However, the merchant marine reached the position it is in today after ‘bright’ MBAs forty years ago saw a way to save money by ‘dumbing down’ the job with Third World (read ‘cheap’) labour, both seamen as well as officers. Cargo shipping today suffers quite horrendous losses at sea, which, because Westerners are seldom involved, gets almost no coverage in the Western media. Now many shipping companies have come to see that the current ‘cheap’ setup has been a horrible mistake (and is anything but cheap), but it’s too late. The rump of professional seamen officers is gone, they were not replaced over the last 30 years, and even if (magically), a large number of young men of the same calibre as used to apply to be merchant marine officers were somehow to come forward to take up jobs in the industry, there’s no one and no system in place to train them.
There were once many young men who had a passion for the sea every bit as deep as the passion many of us hold for Aviation. Today, it’s hard to believe there’ll ever be a shortage of young men and women who’ll want to fly aeroplanes, (but I’d lay London to a brick that someone said that forty years ago about the merchant navy).
So, as uncomfortable as it might be to face the fact, will we see a different kind of recruit into the airline ranks in the not too distant future? The current enormous outlay in time, effort and money to even qualify for the first rung of the ladder (with no guarantee of employment at the end of it) will surely make it less and less attractive to someone planning a career in the industry if they can see no meaningful recompense (or let’s be honest, prestige?) for all that effort except the joy of tooling about the sky in an airliner.
So, is Aviation, or the vast majority of it outside an ever reducing core of major Flag Carriers, destined for the same fate as the merchant marine? (And will the aviation industry, like the shipping companies, discover (too late) that they’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water?)
Sorry, Woomera, if this isn’t the most appropriate forum for this, but it’s every bit as important, in my opinion at least, as many of the other topics I see left here, and I suspect there are many, like me, who rarely look at the other forums within D&G.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, as uncomfortable as it might be to face the fact, will we see a different kind of recruit into the airline ranks in the not too distant future? The current enormous outlay in time, effort and money to even qualify for the first rung of the ladder (with no guarantee of employment at the end of it) will surely make it less and less attractive to someone planning a career in the industry if they can see no meaningful recompense (or let’s be honest, prestige?) for all that effort except the joy of tooling about the sky in an airliner.
I would prefer to fly with someone who is doing the job because he/she loves it rather than someone who sought a career in aviation just because he/she thought it would pay well.
I personally have never considered that PRESTIGE was a consideration in my choice of career.
I would much rather be a pilot on $ 35000 per year than a Sales rep on $70000. Why? Because I am doing what I love to do.
Only those guys with their noses held high in the air, trying to satisfy their inflated egos would be interested in prestige.
Why is it that so many relate high standards to high wages?
I am sure there are many low-paid pilots with high personal standards, and that similarly there are many highly paid pilots with average personal standards.
Regardless of how low the wages and conditions are, I can't see me wearing blue singlets and thongs to work.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Limbo
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Judging from the first reply, it looks like it’s already happened, Wiley.
Next Generation, I haven’t checked your profile, but I’d be guessing you’re relatively new to the job. We all remember being there, and believe me, as much as we love to fly, the thrill starts to wear off after a while, as hard as that might be to understand when you’re young. (I can hear the ‘if you don’t like it, get out of it’ replies flying over the ether already.) The move to ‘Jacky Howe’ singlets etc isn’t as silly as it might first sound when you consider the way we’re locked up in our little caves now, almost completely out of sight of the pax.
On the maritime theme, I have a mate in the UK (late 60’s) who’s an ex sea captain. He says that the British have had to simplify the examinations for ship’s officers because so many of the foreign candidates couldn’t pass the old ones. It remains to be seen if we ever see the day when the Brit ATPL examinations are simplified!!! (Or has that all passed to JARs?)
Next Generation, I haven’t checked your profile, but I’d be guessing you’re relatively new to the job. We all remember being there, and believe me, as much as we love to fly, the thrill starts to wear off after a while, as hard as that might be to understand when you’re young. (I can hear the ‘if you don’t like it, get out of it’ replies flying over the ether already.) The move to ‘Jacky Howe’ singlets etc isn’t as silly as it might first sound when you consider the way we’re locked up in our little caves now, almost completely out of sight of the pax.
On the maritime theme, I have a mate in the UK (late 60’s) who’s an ex sea captain. He says that the British have had to simplify the examinations for ship’s officers because so many of the foreign candidates couldn’t pass the old ones. It remains to be seen if we ever see the day when the Brit ATPL examinations are simplified!!! (Or has that all passed to JARs?)
I posted this in another thread in the D&G GA forums, but it rings true here as well...
A bit of irony for you all...
I was searching on google for some info on what actually makes someone a "professional" (to follow up on the comparison between doctors and pilots). Initially I typed in "What is a Professional" but had to narrow it down so tried "Definition of a Professional Pilot".
The result?
A link to a website called Will Fly For Food
That just about says it all!!!
TL
A bit of irony for you all...
I was searching on google for some info on what actually makes someone a "professional" (to follow up on the comparison between doctors and pilots). Initially I typed in "What is a Professional" but had to narrow it down so tried "Definition of a Professional Pilot".
The result?
A link to a website called Will Fly For Food
That just about says it all!!!
TL
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who probably fits a similar demographic as Next Generation, I'll happily disagree with them.
It's not about the money - it's about the passion. Bring back the days of Captain's walking the cabin interacting with the passengers. The days where Captains were actually called Captain by staff using the name out of respect rather than because the book says so.
At the end of the day, pilots are already glorified bus drivers... and I agree that at this rate, the 'glory' will be short lived.
In an age of economic rationalism, and unrealistic public demands for cheaper air-travel, what can be done?
It's not about the money - it's about the passion. Bring back the days of Captain's walking the cabin interacting with the passengers. The days where Captains were actually called Captain by staff using the name out of respect rather than because the book says so.
At the end of the day, pilots are already glorified bus drivers... and I agree that at this rate, the 'glory' will be short lived.
In an age of economic rationalism, and unrealistic public demands for cheaper air-travel, what can be done?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North son, I say go North..........
Posts: 599
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thoughts and opinions.
Being fairly young to aviation and not having any airline experience my only contributions are:-
Yes the days that the Captain used to walk through were the same days Joe Public could go up the front. Must say that it is probably thanks to the Captains stroll that my initial awe of aviation started.
Again without really knowing it does appear that in general wages have declined. Interesting comment about the public wanting cheaper seats but isn't it the airline that puts out these prices. An interesting point that I find is that Qantas are generally cheaper than VB when surfing for fares???
Now to VB - What is wrong with the conditions?
At the end of the day the airline pilot is the upper echelon of Aviation. I have said it in a previous post but Bigger, Better, Higher Faster...
As for the stubbies, blue singlet and thongs... Joe public would have no idea as they never get to see Capt & FO...
Being fairly young to aviation and not having any airline experience my only contributions are:-
Yes the days that the Captain used to walk through were the same days Joe Public could go up the front. Must say that it is probably thanks to the Captains stroll that my initial awe of aviation started.
Again without really knowing it does appear that in general wages have declined. Interesting comment about the public wanting cheaper seats but isn't it the airline that puts out these prices. An interesting point that I find is that Qantas are generally cheaper than VB when surfing for fares???
Now to VB - What is wrong with the conditions?
At the end of the day the airline pilot is the upper echelon of Aviation. I have said it in a previous post but Bigger, Better, Higher Faster...
As for the stubbies, blue singlet and thongs... Joe public would have no idea as they never get to see Capt & FO...
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Kyketynelonge
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure that the analogy of the exploits of such a high society career of being train engineer is really that valid.
Oh to be humble. I'll see you drive a train on your ATPL and not kill someone.
The world and its societies evolve, and with evolution comes change, and yes obsolescence.
Have mercy that one day, a pilot may have to walk and mingle with the humans.
I think one might find that every career path, doctors, lawyers and such, has found that like all things evolutionary, working conditions have changed.
Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership, mum and dad share investment, most new motor cars and out of control levels of consumerism ever known to man.
Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.
Yes I must say it, get down off your blooded cross we need the wood, stop crying poor and look outside your window, because there are real and talented people out there who manage quite comfortably.
"A man branded as a Scab is truely strengthened by such an imbosilic insult." Quote from a very wise man. If you don't know who it is, then clearly you are the one hurling the stupidity in the first place.
Remember, the dinosaurs too once dominated the earth.
Do you believe it is going to get as bad as DD (and I) think it will? One hundred and twenty years ago, to be an ‘engineer’ on a train – today’s humble train driver - was an extremely well paid and highly respected position. Until around 1970, a merchant seaman officer enjoyed similar high recompense and prestige.
The world and its societies evolve, and with evolution comes change, and yes obsolescence.
Have mercy that one day, a pilot may have to walk and mingle with the humans.
I think one might find that every career path, doctors, lawyers and such, has found that like all things evolutionary, working conditions have changed.
Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership, mum and dad share investment, most new motor cars and out of control levels of consumerism ever known to man.
Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.
Yes I must say it, get down off your blooded cross we need the wood, stop crying poor and look outside your window, because there are real and talented people out there who manage quite comfortably.
"A man branded as a Scab is truely strengthened by such an imbosilic insult." Quote from a very wise man. If you don't know who it is, then clearly you are the one hurling the stupidity in the first place.
Remember, the dinosaurs too once dominated the earth.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: in a suitcase
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Next Generation you my son in my humble opinion are a complete and utter Richard Cranium.
My wife and I consider ourselves very average middleclass, we raised 3 kids albeit private school educated and now there is only ourselves, we don't have a BMW or Merc in the garage and OUR BASIC LIVING EXPENSES FOR TWO 55 YR OLDS is 35K a year.
So I would be delighted if you could PM me and tell me how you intend to progress on such a meagre income.
I could shovell s%$t and get more.
Wiley is quite correct you young idiots have prostituted the industry and I'm glad I am about finished with it. lfs
Oh NG that 35K a year is after tax, about 60K before tax - moron - and just in case you're thoroughly confused you need to pull a heap more than that to have a half decent lifestyle with the odd steak and a good red. I pity you idiots, call you scabs, heroes whatever what has happened in aviation is that the GA mentality (with sincere apologies to genuine GA) has entered the mainstream industry, next we will have these "NG" types poleing 744's around for free getting hours ala GA.
Time to retire to the beach house it's all yours!
My wife and I consider ourselves very average middleclass, we raised 3 kids albeit private school educated and now there is only ourselves, we don't have a BMW or Merc in the garage and OUR BASIC LIVING EXPENSES FOR TWO 55 YR OLDS is 35K a year.
So I would be delighted if you could PM me and tell me how you intend to progress on such a meagre income.
I could shovell s%$t and get more.
Wiley is quite correct you young idiots have prostituted the industry and I'm glad I am about finished with it. lfs
Oh NG that 35K a year is after tax, about 60K before tax - moron - and just in case you're thoroughly confused you need to pull a heap more than that to have a half decent lifestyle with the odd steak and a good red. I pity you idiots, call you scabs, heroes whatever what has happened in aviation is that the GA mentality (with sincere apologies to genuine GA) has entered the mainstream industry, next we will have these "NG" types poleing 744's around for free getting hours ala GA.
Time to retire to the beach house it's all yours!
Last edited by leftfrontside; 19th Aug 2003 at 00:29.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting initial replies from both points of view to what I suspect will be (or at least should be) a long topic.
I have two questions:
Firstly, to those with opinions similar to the very aptly named ‘Next Generation’. Try to picture a world where you’ve never read a comic, magazine article or a book, or seen a TV show or movie, even a travel poster – indeed anything – showing flying as something exciting, exotic or even remotely glamorous. Picture if you can a world where flying – in all its guises – is something done by low paid shift workers who clock on (at all hours of the night!) carrying their lunch boxes and thermos flasks and wearing striped baseball caps and bib and brace overalls. Difficult, I know, but bear with me for a moment please. Forget the travel to exotic places – these low-paid workers would be in such places for such short periods they wouldn’t see anything of them, and forget the fact that they enjoy cheap subload travel to them on their holidays. Any perk like that simply doesn’t exist.
Now ask yourself whether you would have grown up with any semblance of this attitude expressed by ‘Next Generation’ where you’d happily do the job – with all the pitfalls we suffer in today’s world of aviation, like huge training costs (for not even a possibility of any eventual vaguely meaningful reward?), potential summary dismissal, possible loss of medical or licence every six months, at least a 50% guarantee you’ll be away for damn near every important date in your wife or children’s life, along with all the rest of the pitfalls we’re all so familiar with.
I’m assuming that the person I’m addressing is of above average intelligence, with a decent education and with aspirations of making something of yourself in life. Now ask yourself whether you, like ‘Next Generation’, would happily fly aeroplanes for $35,000 or its equivalent a year in such an environment. Or would you perhaps look elsewhere, to some career where you might enjoy some rewards commensurate to the effort you put into your education and your job, to say nothing of a lifestyle that might allow you to have a semblance of a family life and that provided something a little above the average for your kids education and your own retirement. (Oh, and ‘Next Generation’ one more point – after you’ve committed yourself to this career ‘for the love of it’ for $35,000 a year, how would you feel if someone came along willing to do the job for $17,500 a year?)
My second question is to ‘Wiley’. Why in the world did you post this thread on D&G? This topic doesn’t apply just to Australia, but to every pilot worldwide. It should be on the main Pprune Rumours page.
I have two questions:
Firstly, to those with opinions similar to the very aptly named ‘Next Generation’. Try to picture a world where you’ve never read a comic, magazine article or a book, or seen a TV show or movie, even a travel poster – indeed anything – showing flying as something exciting, exotic or even remotely glamorous. Picture if you can a world where flying – in all its guises – is something done by low paid shift workers who clock on (at all hours of the night!) carrying their lunch boxes and thermos flasks and wearing striped baseball caps and bib and brace overalls. Difficult, I know, but bear with me for a moment please. Forget the travel to exotic places – these low-paid workers would be in such places for such short periods they wouldn’t see anything of them, and forget the fact that they enjoy cheap subload travel to them on their holidays. Any perk like that simply doesn’t exist.
Now ask yourself whether you would have grown up with any semblance of this attitude expressed by ‘Next Generation’ where you’d happily do the job – with all the pitfalls we suffer in today’s world of aviation, like huge training costs (for not even a possibility of any eventual vaguely meaningful reward?), potential summary dismissal, possible loss of medical or licence every six months, at least a 50% guarantee you’ll be away for damn near every important date in your wife or children’s life, along with all the rest of the pitfalls we’re all so familiar with.
I’m assuming that the person I’m addressing is of above average intelligence, with a decent education and with aspirations of making something of yourself in life. Now ask yourself whether you, like ‘Next Generation’, would happily fly aeroplanes for $35,000 or its equivalent a year in such an environment. Or would you perhaps look elsewhere, to some career where you might enjoy some rewards commensurate to the effort you put into your education and your job, to say nothing of a lifestyle that might allow you to have a semblance of a family life and that provided something a little above the average for your kids education and your own retirement. (Oh, and ‘Next Generation’ one more point – after you’ve committed yourself to this career ‘for the love of it’ for $35,000 a year, how would you feel if someone came along willing to do the job for $17,500 a year?)
My second question is to ‘Wiley’. Why in the world did you post this thread on D&G? This topic doesn’t apply just to Australia, but to every pilot worldwide. It should be on the main Pprune Rumours page.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It really is with some reluctance that I make this post, and to Wiley, leftfrontside and others who will, I really want to ask, "WHY, what's the point?".
Time and again, when the subject of 1989, dumbing down of aviation, and the relevance of a strong pilot union are raised, there are those who howl it down with the usual "Get over it/Get out of it/We're not as stupid as you lot were". And with this attitude apparently prevalent, why SHOULD those of us who have been in the industry for a lifetime feel it (is) encumbant upon us to try to look after the next generation of pilots who will occupy the flight decks?
Perhaps it's a hang-over from the years up to 1989, when the "now generation" passed on as much "good gen", knowledge and know-how of the airline culture they had taken care of to the "next generation". Stuff that is foreign to the likes of Cruze Power.
Yes the industry has - and is still being - dumbed down. The DEPTH of aircraft knowledge and flying ability in airlines is less today on aveage, than it was of pilots in equivalent positions say 25 years ago. The old "chalk and talk", pull the aircraft apart bolt by bolt, and then re-assemble it, have gone - replaced by a.v. courses with a quick multiple choice exam after each section.
We have seen the whittling down of our conditions during OUR aviation working lives - I believe that the pilots who enjoyed the BEST conditions were the generation before ours, and was it just co-incidence that this was when union membership was at its highest?!
On this point Cruze Power supports my argument when he states, "Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers.."
The salary? A pilot's salary is not indicative of the work he does on a regular daily basis, it IS - as one PPRuNer succinctly stated on another thread - indicative of what a pilot is able to do when required.
But again I hearken back to my opening question - WHY should WE bother trying to assist the Next Generations?
Time and again, when the subject of 1989, dumbing down of aviation, and the relevance of a strong pilot union are raised, there are those who howl it down with the usual "Get over it/Get out of it/We're not as stupid as you lot were". And with this attitude apparently prevalent, why SHOULD those of us who have been in the industry for a lifetime feel it (is) encumbant upon us to try to look after the next generation of pilots who will occupy the flight decks?
Perhaps it's a hang-over from the years up to 1989, when the "now generation" passed on as much "good gen", knowledge and know-how of the airline culture they had taken care of to the "next generation". Stuff that is foreign to the likes of Cruze Power.
Yes the industry has - and is still being - dumbed down. The DEPTH of aircraft knowledge and flying ability in airlines is less today on aveage, than it was of pilots in equivalent positions say 25 years ago. The old "chalk and talk", pull the aircraft apart bolt by bolt, and then re-assemble it, have gone - replaced by a.v. courses with a quick multiple choice exam after each section.
We have seen the whittling down of our conditions during OUR aviation working lives - I believe that the pilots who enjoyed the BEST conditions were the generation before ours, and was it just co-incidence that this was when union membership was at its highest?!
On this point Cruze Power supports my argument when he states, "Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers.."
The salary? A pilot's salary is not indicative of the work he does on a regular daily basis, it IS - as one PPRuNer succinctly stated on another thread - indicative of what a pilot is able to do when required.
But again I hearken back to my opening question - WHY should WE bother trying to assist the Next Generations?
Kap,
Sooooo......
I guess you wouldn't accept employment unless represented by a "Strong Aviation Union.".
So which union negotiated and ensures the conditions you currently enjoy and so often boast about?
Or was it negotiated on the basis of a (Gasp!!) individual contract?
Sooooo......
I guess you wouldn't accept employment unless represented by a "Strong Aviation Union.".
So which union negotiated and ensures the conditions you currently enjoy and so often boast about?
Or was it negotiated on the basis of a (Gasp!!) individual contract?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
leftfrontside
I wish you all the best in your retirement.
Kaptin M
Exactly how have you been assisting the Next Generations?
By telling them that the industry is stuffed, and that there is no point following their dreams?
I personally do not seek any assistance from you. There are many senior people in aviation who do remember why they got into this damned game in the first place, and I am sure that they have a considerable wealth of knowledge to impart.
7x7
Well let's turn the question around.
How much IS a pilot worth? Will you be happy with $100,000, $200,000, $500,000 ????
Nobody has said exactly what this FAIR wage should be. The truth is that you will never be happy, whatever the pay and conditions.
When I started out, I knew that I would be spending a large amount of money on training, with absolutely no guarantee that I would ever have gained employment. I decided to take the risk, and I have never looked back.
If I had wanted security, I would have settled for some other career that was in demand and paid well. I decided that there was more to life than money, and so I followed my dream.
I wish a lot of you guys would just take a step back, and consider how lucky you really are.
I wish you all the best in your retirement.
Kaptin M
Exactly how have you been assisting the Next Generations?
By telling them that the industry is stuffed, and that there is no point following their dreams?
I personally do not seek any assistance from you. There are many senior people in aviation who do remember why they got into this damned game in the first place, and I am sure that they have a considerable wealth of knowledge to impart.
7x7
(Oh, and ‘Next Generation’ one more point – after you’ve committed yourself to this career ‘for the love of it’ for $35,000 a year, how would you feel if someone came along willing to do the job for $17,500 a year?)
How much IS a pilot worth? Will you be happy with $100,000, $200,000, $500,000 ????
Nobody has said exactly what this FAIR wage should be. The truth is that you will never be happy, whatever the pay and conditions.
When I started out, I knew that I would be spending a large amount of money on training, with absolutely no guarantee that I would ever have gained employment. I decided to take the risk, and I have never looked back.
If I had wanted security, I would have settled for some other career that was in demand and paid well. I decided that there was more to life than money, and so I followed my dream.
I wish a lot of you guys would just take a step back, and consider how lucky you really are.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As usual, Wiley, you have provided an excellent post that should be seen by ALL aspiring pilots.
I tend to agree with Kaptin M, however, in that just why should anyone bother to warn the "next generation" - except, perhaps, in order that they may be aware from whence their " current conditions" evolved.
Keep it up, Wiley.
I tend to agree with Kaptin M, however, in that just why should anyone bother to warn the "next generation" - except, perhaps, in order that they may be aware from whence their " current conditions" evolved.
Keep it up, Wiley.
Next Generation - why did you get into this industry in the first place...? 
To take your statement that you fly purely for the love of it just that one step further - why don't you stop being paid to fly (if you are at all) and instead go & get another job & actually pay to go flying? After all, if you are doing it purely for the love of it, then surely no price is too high a price to pay for such a thrill.
As for myself - I am in fact happy with the money that I currently make as a professional pilot. However, I am not happy about the constant downward pressure on my future earning potential. I am concerned that there seems to be a drive from within our profession to drive down the wages of those working at the highest wage levels. I propose that most of the people doing so (& the profession as a whole) would be better off if they spent their time trying to attain the higher wage levels, rather than trying to drag others down.
To answer your question Next Gen - I believe that pilots are worth at least as much as those on the highest wage levels in todays environment. As such, provided that current wage levels maintain (at the absolute minimum) parity with inflation & CPI, I will be happy for the rest of my career. To state that I will never be happy with terms and conditions is wrong - however, just because a person may be happy with their current terms & conditions, should they not always be seeking to improve upon them...?
I do consider myself lucky to be where I am today. However, I don't see that as a reason to be willingly giving away any of the hard fought benefits & privileges that my companions have worked for over the years.
To take your statement that you fly purely for the love of it just that one step further - why don't you stop being paid to fly (if you are at all) and instead go & get another job & actually pay to go flying? After all, if you are doing it purely for the love of it, then surely no price is too high a price to pay for such a thrill.
As for myself - I am in fact happy with the money that I currently make as a professional pilot. However, I am not happy about the constant downward pressure on my future earning potential. I am concerned that there seems to be a drive from within our profession to drive down the wages of those working at the highest wage levels. I propose that most of the people doing so (& the profession as a whole) would be better off if they spent their time trying to attain the higher wage levels, rather than trying to drag others down.
To answer your question Next Gen - I believe that pilots are worth at least as much as those on the highest wage levels in todays environment. As such, provided that current wage levels maintain (at the absolute minimum) parity with inflation & CPI, I will be happy for the rest of my career. To state that I will never be happy with terms and conditions is wrong - however, just because a person may be happy with their current terms & conditions, should they not always be seeking to improve upon them...?
I do consider myself lucky to be where I am today. However, I don't see that as a reason to be willingly giving away any of the hard fought benefits & privileges that my companions have worked for over the years.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Johnny Utah
You are absolutely correct in your statement here.
I have had many jobs before aviation, where every spare cent I had was used to pay to go flying. That is why I am so happy just to be getting paid to fly now.
Again, you are absolutely correct!!!!
You just don't get it, and I doubt that you ever will.
To take your statement that you fly purely for the love of it just that one step further - why don't you stop being paid to fly (if you are at all) and instead go & get another job & actually pay to go flying?
I have had many jobs before aviation, where every spare cent I had was used to pay to go flying. That is why I am so happy just to be getting paid to fly now.
After all, if you are doing it purely for the love of it, then surely no price is too high a price to pay for such a thrill.
You just don't get it, and I doubt that you ever will.
Nunc est bibendum
Actually NG, Johhny gets it perfectly.
What you miss is that someone will happen along one day who will be prepared to do the job for less than you do. Someone will come along and offer less again until one day you WON'T be being paid for the privilege. Paying for endorsements, training etc is just the thin edge of the wedge.
Enjoy the money while you get it. It won't be at that level forever with more people with an attitude like yours! Good luck to your future spouse and kids too who won't be impressed with you being away all the time doing your aviation thing on less money that a school teacher!
What you miss is that someone will happen along one day who will be prepared to do the job for less than you do. Someone will come along and offer less again until one day you WON'T be being paid for the privilege. Paying for endorsements, training etc is just the thin edge of the wedge.
Enjoy the money while you get it. It won't be at that level forever with more people with an attitude like yours! Good luck to your future spouse and kids too who won't be impressed with you being away all the time doing your aviation thing on less money that a school teacher!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So am I to believe that in the not-too-distant-future, there will be pilots sitting up the front of 747's and Airbuses who are actually paying to be there?
You are fanciful in the extreme.
Just because I believe that being paid $ 200,000 or more to sit up the front and push buttons is extravagant, does not automatically mean that pilots should not get paid at all, or, as you would have us believe, pilots will be paying for the privilege.
So what if pilot X gets paid more than pilot y.
If pilot y is happy with what he is doing and how much he is earning, then leave him be. You on the other hand want to make him feel inadequate because he isn't on the same money as pilot x.
Do not even begin to make judgements about my personal life. My extremely supportive wife would much rather be married to a husband who is happy in his job, than married to an unhappy individual who is raking in the dough.
From your statement, I must assume that your wife finds lots of money is a substitute to you being at home? Perhaps you should have married somebody who was interested in you and not your money.
It is pointless comparing wages to that of a schoolteacher as I NEVER WANTED TO BE A TEACHER !!!!!!
I WANTED TO BE A PILOT. I BECAME A PILOT. I couldn't give a stuff about the wages!!!!!......
Do you get it yet?
You are fanciful in the extreme.
Just because I believe that being paid $ 200,000 or more to sit up the front and push buttons is extravagant, does not automatically mean that pilots should not get paid at all, or, as you would have us believe, pilots will be paying for the privilege.
So what if pilot X gets paid more than pilot y.
If pilot y is happy with what he is doing and how much he is earning, then leave him be. You on the other hand want to make him feel inadequate because he isn't on the same money as pilot x.
Enjoy the money while you get it. It won't be at that level forever with more people with an attitude like yours! Good luck to your future spouse and kids too who won't be impressed with you being away all the time doing your aviation thing on less money that a school teacher!
From your statement, I must assume that your wife finds lots of money is a substitute to you being at home? Perhaps you should have married somebody who was interested in you and not your money.
It is pointless comparing wages to that of a schoolteacher as I NEVER WANTED TO BE A TEACHER !!!!!!
I WANTED TO BE A PILOT. I BECAME A PILOT. I couldn't give a stuff about the wages!!!!!......
Do you get it yet?