Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?
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oh man...robair, that was just a wonderful insight into your deep perspective, masterfully constructed and so eloquently put.
I just cant understand why it feels we're fighting a lost battle sometimes
I just cant understand why it feels we're fighting a lost battle sometimes
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While this topic strays ever closer to another '89' slugfest, let me say that if the AFAP is going to represent pilot interests, then I would hope it could do so in a much smarter way than it did many years ago. The final outcome in taking on a popular, intransigent Federal Government without widespread public support (and I don't consider your wife and kids as 'widespread public support') was doomed to failure, and any contention that it would've somehow been different without scabs is pure poppycock. Somewhat like everyone standing in the middle of a railway track with the Hawke iron-ore train bearing down at 80km/h with your arms folded and a defiant look on your face (and the driver having no intention of stopping). Blood & guts everywhere, and not a scratch on the train driver.
But back to the topic - a couple of key points:
Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.
Secondly, like it or not, traditional union power is declining. Hey, the Eureka flag is great, but this is not 1854, and 'collective action' is generally only useful when the public sees your group as down-trodden and taken advantage of (can you imagine the public and Government reaction to a lawyers' strike?). Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, airline pilots are not exactly seen as down-trodden paupers, and so it's at the point now where our collective action needs to centre around working intelligently WITH the companies to stop erosion of conditions, not against them. We must certainly be united, but in trying to culture a working relationship rather than an adversarial one.
So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.
But back to the topic - a couple of key points:
Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.
Secondly, like it or not, traditional union power is declining. Hey, the Eureka flag is great, but this is not 1854, and 'collective action' is generally only useful when the public sees your group as down-trodden and taken advantage of (can you imagine the public and Government reaction to a lawyers' strike?). Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, airline pilots are not exactly seen as down-trodden paupers, and so it's at the point now where our collective action needs to centre around working intelligently WITH the companies to stop erosion of conditions, not against them. We must certainly be united, but in trying to culture a working relationship rather than an adversarial one.
So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.
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Yes, one would hope that the flying skills of Robair would be exhibited in a better fashion that either his or her spelling or literal ability.
Dutch Roll seems to imagine the AFAP as like the ACTU type union, membership led by the nose by those who usually haven't lifted a small garden fork in their lives, e.g., Hawke, Kelty, and the like. Crean being another.
Fact is DR, and it has been mentioned numerous times, the AFAP is a member driven union.
But, pilots, being basically stupid and selfish individuals, tend to leave the hard yards to the small band of colleagues, who give of their own time (and their families time) for the benefit of those stupid and selfish individuals.
Then, when things go a little awry, and not quite the way the selfish and stupid individuals believe they should, the same run away, and generally become what we refer to as scabs.
There is nothing worse than ratting on your colleagues, or leaping in from the outside like Ralph the Bong, as he would have us believe he did.
In each case, you become a scab.
Like it or not, and scabs don't, that is what they are.
Now Ralph, in one of his posts, before he edited it, was rather derogatory of me, and accused me of hiding behind anonymity through these pages. Ralph is equally anonymous, except for those of us who happen to know who he is.
He also left in his edited post, a reference to me as a DH, the meaning of which we all know well.
He is entitled to his opinion, and I would defend his right to express it.
But nothing can assuage the fact, he is a scab, and I trust he remembers it when he slings moist cowpats at the rest of us who know that he is.
Dutch Roll seems to imagine the AFAP as like the ACTU type union, membership led by the nose by those who usually haven't lifted a small garden fork in their lives, e.g., Hawke, Kelty, and the like. Crean being another.
Fact is DR, and it has been mentioned numerous times, the AFAP is a member driven union.
But, pilots, being basically stupid and selfish individuals, tend to leave the hard yards to the small band of colleagues, who give of their own time (and their families time) for the benefit of those stupid and selfish individuals.
Then, when things go a little awry, and not quite the way the selfish and stupid individuals believe they should, the same run away, and generally become what we refer to as scabs.
There is nothing worse than ratting on your colleagues, or leaping in from the outside like Ralph the Bong, as he would have us believe he did.
In each case, you become a scab.
Like it or not, and scabs don't, that is what they are.
Now Ralph, in one of his posts, before he edited it, was rather derogatory of me, and accused me of hiding behind anonymity through these pages. Ralph is equally anonymous, except for those of us who happen to know who he is.
He also left in his edited post, a reference to me as a DH, the meaning of which we all know well.
He is entitled to his opinion, and I would defend his right to express it.
But nothing can assuage the fact, he is a scab, and I trust he remembers it when he slings moist cowpats at the rest of us who know that he is.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
So Dutch Roll has at last - after 6 pages - revealed the true secret as to what pilots must do to achieve respectable salaries:-
Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.
and,
So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.
With that in mind,
, we have beaten around the bush quite a bit, but only a couple of posters have scratched the surface as to WHY the occupation of pilot is sui generis...that is unique from say that of a taxi/'bus/truck/train driver.
Anyone care to have a go at listing the differences?
Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.
and,
So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.
With that in mind,
, we have beaten around the bush quite a bit, but only a couple of posters have scratched the surface as to WHY the occupation of pilot is sui generis...that is unique from say that of a taxi/'bus/truck/train driver.Anyone care to have a go at listing the differences?
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Just a quick reply before moving on to the topic of this thread.
Ralph, it was you who sent me a PM, and as it happened, I saw it, and replied. You will recall I simply stated the fact you are a scab.
You conveniently forget that your private message was, indeed, expletive in the extreme, so as a private reply, you could hardly expect any sympathy.
I imagine therefore, you must have attempted to influence the moderators of the forum to have me banned, without the courage to state or show your PM to me.
Remember Ralph you are entitled to write what you wish, but don't pretend to claim to be what you are not, and that is rather loose and foul with your language as your PM proved.
Now, to the thread.
In today's media there has been reference to the statements made by the QF CEO which effectively stamps the end union labour in QF, and crtainly in any subsidiary it sets up for "budget" operations.
The days of the navvy singlets and thongs are not far away, and you "professionals" need to get yourselves ready for a fight which was flagged to you during the 80's by the AFAP.
The tragedy is that the QF characters who led the way out of the AFAP in the early 80's are mostly all gone, but their legacy was to weaken the pilot force as an industrial body, and smile at you all from their retirment homes on the Gold Coast.
Hve fun boys and girls.
Ralph, it was you who sent me a PM, and as it happened, I saw it, and replied. You will recall I simply stated the fact you are a scab.
You conveniently forget that your private message was, indeed, expletive in the extreme, so as a private reply, you could hardly expect any sympathy.
I imagine therefore, you must have attempted to influence the moderators of the forum to have me banned, without the courage to state or show your PM to me.
Remember Ralph you are entitled to write what you wish, but don't pretend to claim to be what you are not, and that is rather loose and foul with your language as your PM proved.
Now, to the thread.
In today's media there has been reference to the statements made by the QF CEO which effectively stamps the end union labour in QF, and crtainly in any subsidiary it sets up for "budget" operations.
The days of the navvy singlets and thongs are not far away, and you "professionals" need to get yourselves ready for a fight which was flagged to you during the 80's by the AFAP.
The tragedy is that the QF characters who led the way out of the AFAP in the early 80's are mostly all gone, but their legacy was to weaken the pilot force as an industrial body, and smile at you all from their retirment homes on the Gold Coast.
Hve fun boys and girls.
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In all honesty SS-MB, I had completely forgoten posting that. As a result I have deleted my post above. My appologies for any embarassment that the above post caused to you. However, I make no appology whatsoever, sunshine for defending myself against your false accusations of my industrial 'pedigree'. When you go around mindlessly calling people "scab", you if fact bring disrepute upon those of '89 who have a sane perspective. Now days, whenever I hear someone use the word 'scab', I immediately wonder if they are a psycopathic fringe dweller. And, thanks to the ravings of cranks like you, I place them in this category until they demonstrate themselves otherwise. You've had your chance to redeem yourself in my eyes and ya blew it. 
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 23rd Aug 2003 at 13:40.
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It seems a bit of a double standard is being allowed here.
I note that my post which proved RTB's denial of a PM to me, and proven to be a lie, has been removed.
RTB also notes it, and decides to edit his post accordingly, now the proof of his duplicity has been removed from the vision of those who read these pages.
So in order to remind him, I re-post his demeaning PM here.
It is edited by me to reflect some standard PPrune desires.
"Ralph the Bong
Still just another number
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27th May 2003 00:46
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Hey You!
Actually, s***head, I am on the 'correct' side of the '89 fence. Posts like the one you made accusing me of 'scabdom' only make you look like a complete idiot. I suggest that you remove it to avoid embarassing yourself further."
Ralph publicly denied in this thread sending this PM.
He is a liar.
All I ask from Woomera is the same right of reply to prove, as I have done, that RTB is a liar.
Now let's get on with the thread.
I note that my post which proved RTB's denial of a PM to me, and proven to be a lie, has been removed.
RTB also notes it, and decides to edit his post accordingly, now the proof of his duplicity has been removed from the vision of those who read these pages.
So in order to remind him, I re-post his demeaning PM here.
It is edited by me to reflect some standard PPrune desires.
"Ralph the Bong
Still just another number
Click here to order your Personal Title
27th May 2003 00:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey You!
Actually, s***head, I am on the 'correct' side of the '89 fence. Posts like the one you made accusing me of 'scabdom' only make you look like a complete idiot. I suggest that you remove it to avoid embarassing yourself further."
Ralph publicly denied in this thread sending this PM.
He is a liar.
All I ask from Woomera is the same right of reply to prove, as I have done, that RTB is a liar.
Now let's get on with the thread.
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This post in Aircrew Notices is the crux of the problem.
Author Topic: Virgin FO Salary and Command prospects
H****n
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posted 9th March 2003 03:32
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Ilovelonghaul. Low pay? Surely thou jest?
After all you are flying a beautiful aircraft with beautiful hosties who have been known to have the odd pyjama party during overnights at the best hotels in town.
Anyway, flogging over the sunburnt country is not exactly the most hazardous job in the world. Boring maybe - but seldom dangerous. There are over 3000 hopeful pilots on the Virgin books just waiting in the wings (love the pun, in case it went right over your head) and more than happy to fly for a lot less than Virgin pays. Me included.
Ask any grade three instructor at Archerfield if he or she considers 65K low pay!
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MY REPLY
Mr. Hat
Over 150 posts! About time I clicked here and ordered a Personal Title.
posted 12th August 2003 14:56
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H****n - where do I start? Or do I even bother replying to your post that I had previously missed.
Keg & Gnand sum it up perfectly.
How about the chaps that you are teaching at Archerfield go to your boss and say "we'll do it for less than Captain H****n". Afterall you are ACTUALLY getting paid to fly whilst they are paying.
I mean GOD, you get paid to put time in your logbook! These junior Captains don't even know if they will ever get a gig so sure enough they will do your job for less or maybe for free. Not a nice thought hey.
The reality is that the chaps/ettes at Virgin are working very hard. To get where they are today they have done some very hard yards. Therefore the suggestion that their money is too much and that their work is some kind of social activity/party is a little off the mark. The senior guys in your company set the standard as to what is acceptable/reasonable and in a way affect how much money you get paid and what conditions you work under. Much the same as the VB and QF guys set the standard for the rest of us.
Its all relative.
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If the people at the bottom end don't understand that shafting people above them will affect them in the long run then there is no hope
Mr. Hat
Author Topic: Virgin FO Salary and Command prospects
H****n
Still just another number
Click here to order your Personal Title
posted 9th March 2003 03:32
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Ilovelonghaul. Low pay? Surely thou jest?
After all you are flying a beautiful aircraft with beautiful hosties who have been known to have the odd pyjama party during overnights at the best hotels in town.
Anyway, flogging over the sunburnt country is not exactly the most hazardous job in the world. Boring maybe - but seldom dangerous. There are over 3000 hopeful pilots on the Virgin books just waiting in the wings (love the pun, in case it went right over your head) and more than happy to fly for a lot less than Virgin pays. Me included.
Ask any grade three instructor at Archerfield if he or she considers 65K low pay!
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MY REPLY
Mr. Hat
Over 150 posts! About time I clicked here and ordered a Personal Title.
posted 12th August 2003 14:56
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H****n - where do I start? Or do I even bother replying to your post that I had previously missed.
Keg & Gnand sum it up perfectly.
How about the chaps that you are teaching at Archerfield go to your boss and say "we'll do it for less than Captain H****n". Afterall you are ACTUALLY getting paid to fly whilst they are paying.
I mean GOD, you get paid to put time in your logbook! These junior Captains don't even know if they will ever get a gig so sure enough they will do your job for less or maybe for free. Not a nice thought hey.
The reality is that the chaps/ettes at Virgin are working very hard. To get where they are today they have done some very hard yards. Therefore the suggestion that their money is too much and that their work is some kind of social activity/party is a little off the mark. The senior guys in your company set the standard as to what is acceptable/reasonable and in a way affect how much money you get paid and what conditions you work under. Much the same as the VB and QF guys set the standard for the rest of us.
Its all relative.
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If the people at the bottom end don't understand that shafting people above them will affect them in the long run then there is no hope
Mr. Hat
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No double standard, Pal. Woomera edited my post to remove the nasty little PM that you sent me and I later edited it. I admit that I made an error regarding the postings and was wrong. I send lots of PMs and simply couldn't remember posting one to you. Check the date; months ago. However, out of respect to Woomera, I wwill desist from re-posting your little 'gem'. My last post regaqrding the matter. 
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Back to my original point guys...............
How are we (the professional pilot body) going to convince them (the general public) that we are worth paying for?
Prevent them at all costs from reading PPRUNE for a start, I guess. If every Mr Joe Average decided to peruse some threads on this forum he might be convinced that we are worth LESS than bus drivers.
Bicker all you want, but we have to convince average people to value what we do for a living. And we have to convince our employers likewise, and negotiate intelligently with them. Then and only then will we maintain or improve our working conditions.
How are we (the professional pilot body) going to convince them (the general public) that we are worth paying for?
Prevent them at all costs from reading PPRUNE for a start, I guess. If every Mr Joe Average decided to peruse some threads on this forum he might be convinced that we are worth LESS than bus drivers.
Bicker all you want, but we have to convince average people to value what we do for a living. And we have to convince our employers likewise, and negotiate intelligently with them. Then and only then will we maintain or improve our working conditions.
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subsonic, or is that over the top moronic? Perhaps your matwe kaptain M can pick you upon your spelling and LITERAL ability!! What a laugh. Do you mean LITERARY (as in writing?). I thinkl so. Poor chap. Now that's no typo. Thats just plain dumb. Go him kaptinm, or if he agrees with you, you don't bother. I got it now. Express a vciew the kaptain doesn't like and he goes after spelling etc.
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I have received a number of complaints about this thread. I previously edited some posts on a case by case basis, which I considered were inappropriate.
If you wish to slug it out via PM's, that's YOUR business. When you choose to post those PM's here, it becomes MY business.
Can we stick to the thread topic and keep the "personalities" out of it?
W
If you wish to slug it out via PM's, that's YOUR business. When you choose to post those PM's here, it becomes MY business.
Can we stick to the thread topic and keep the "personalities" out of it?
W
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Franga your observation is correct and very piognant. The original post to start this discussion was balanced and very capable of encouraging debate. However in true antipodean fashion we have managed to by and large deprive the discussion of rational thinking and common sense discussion. Perhaps you may get some idea of the sort of people we have to live and work with down here.
I might add that it is a minority who come in here and through a total lack of any intellectual capacity to engage in constructive dialogue, ruin a good debate. There are many good contributors with far more knowledge and oratory excellence that I can possibly muster, whom I find genuinely interesting reading.
We have a vast cross section of very experienced pilots and some not so, all who have a axe (of sorts) to grind. What I find frustrating is the mind numbing, vacuous diatribe continuosly posted on this forum. Surely we can discuss the past and the future without descending (almost without fail) into a slanging match.
Many of our more experienced pilots down here have a vast repertoire of knowledge to disperse to their peers, alas we are far too good to need some silly old ****** pass on time proven methods and practices. There is on the other hand a few who tend to lay it on a bit thick. The sad part being we can not differentiate between the two, so everyone cops it.
What the future holds in Australian aviation is very uncertain to say the least. Australian pilots these days do not stick together for the purpose of achieving a common objective. It has pretty much become a case of "I'm alright Jack". I look forward to the opinion of my peers in ten years from now (if we are still flying) to see what they have learnt from their actions.
I might add that it is a minority who come in here and through a total lack of any intellectual capacity to engage in constructive dialogue, ruin a good debate. There are many good contributors with far more knowledge and oratory excellence that I can possibly muster, whom I find genuinely interesting reading.
We have a vast cross section of very experienced pilots and some not so, all who have a axe (of sorts) to grind. What I find frustrating is the mind numbing, vacuous diatribe continuosly posted on this forum. Surely we can discuss the past and the future without descending (almost without fail) into a slanging match.
Many of our more experienced pilots down here have a vast repertoire of knowledge to disperse to their peers, alas we are far too good to need some silly old ****** pass on time proven methods and practices. There is on the other hand a few who tend to lay it on a bit thick. The sad part being we can not differentiate between the two, so everyone cops it.
What the future holds in Australian aviation is very uncertain to say the least. Australian pilots these days do not stick together for the purpose of achieving a common objective. It has pretty much become a case of "I'm alright Jack". I look forward to the opinion of my peers in ten years from now (if we are still flying) to see what they have learnt from their actions.
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My dear VB_ Capt, I am always prepared to stand corrected, in the use of the language, as well as anything else.
However in this case, I used "literal", and intended to so do.
I suggest you refer to your copy of The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles, Volume One, if indeed you continue to believe I am wrong.
I expect all our friends at QF were fixated on the television sets this morning, watching the CEO raising the industrial bar.
I do believe he inferred something about navvy singlets, thongs, and handkerchiefs tied at the corners, without actually saying it.
This will be fun.
However in this case, I used "literal", and intended to so do.
I suggest you refer to your copy of The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles, Volume One, if indeed you continue to believe I am wrong.
I expect all our friends at QF were fixated on the television sets this morning, watching the CEO raising the industrial bar.
I do believe he inferred something about navvy singlets, thongs, and handkerchiefs tied at the corners, without actually saying it.
This will be fun.
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Wiley,
Excellent post. Hopefully it makes everyone stop and think for a moment about what may be around the corner, and what we as a pilot body can do to alter the outcome.
A comment on a recent event. The snap one day strike by QANTAS baggage staff. These people are a vital cog in the machine of an airline. A function that is not technical or requiring high levels of ongoing training. They receive good financial benefits and reasonable conditions. The job could arguably be described as unskilled labour. Yet they had the power and the tenacity, backed by a union, to call a snap strike against QANTAS.
Could QANTAS tech crew do the same
I'm not suggesting they need to, but if a Cathay Pacific management-aircrew relationship situation came about, what would happen?
Excellent post. Hopefully it makes everyone stop and think for a moment about what may be around the corner, and what we as a pilot body can do to alter the outcome.
A comment on a recent event. The snap one day strike by QANTAS baggage staff. These people are a vital cog in the machine of an airline. A function that is not technical or requiring high levels of ongoing training. They receive good financial benefits and reasonable conditions. The job could arguably be described as unskilled labour. Yet they had the power and the tenacity, backed by a union, to call a snap strike against QANTAS.
Could QANTAS tech crew do the same
I'm not suggesting they need to, but if a Cathay Pacific management-aircrew relationship situation came about, what would happen?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It`s interesting to sit down and work out the cost of a pilot on an "hourly per pax" basis.
Using the average of the 4 sectors we flew yesterday, the load factor came out at 62% - about 92 pax. The F/O had flown about 620 hours in the previous 12 months, and I, 690. I then divided my pre-tax salary + allowances by 690 to get an hourly rate, and did likewise for co-pi san, and then added the two to get a combined hourly rate for the 2 pilots. Divided this by the number of pax on a one hour flight.
How much would you reckon each passenger pays for BOTH pilots on an hourly basis??
The answer...362 yen - about AUD5 for BOTH!
The cost of a 1 hour ticket here is rarely less than AUD135, and usually $150.
It would be interesting to compare the "hourly per pax" costings for charter and commuter operators to see what percentage of the ticket price is dedicated to pilots.
Any volunteers?
Using the average of the 4 sectors we flew yesterday, the load factor came out at 62% - about 92 pax. The F/O had flown about 620 hours in the previous 12 months, and I, 690. I then divided my pre-tax salary + allowances by 690 to get an hourly rate, and did likewise for co-pi san, and then added the two to get a combined hourly rate for the 2 pilots. Divided this by the number of pax on a one hour flight.
How much would you reckon each passenger pays for BOTH pilots on an hourly basis??
The answer...362 yen - about AUD5 for BOTH!
The cost of a 1 hour ticket here is rarely less than AUD135, and usually $150.
It would be interesting to compare the "hourly per pax" costings for charter and commuter operators to see what percentage of the ticket price is dedicated to pilots.
Any volunteers?
Kap,
Interesting then that you constantly attribute Ansetts downfall to what it paid it's pilots, which was even less than what you get now...
Interesting then that you constantly attribute Ansetts downfall to what it paid it's pilots, which was even less than what you get now...
. And I only got half as many ATPLs as the big man himself...