Productivity Of Qantas Longhaul Pilots
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Where people don't care
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Productivity Of Qantas Longhaul Pilots
Many Qantas pilots have stated on this forum that they have high productivity levels. How do they measure just how productive they are?
Here a couple of questions for those holding the ‘high productivity’ line. Honest answers may not be nice to read but I challenge thinking Qantas pilots to pen their thoughts.
1.. Of the divisor hours in each bid period, how many are straight duty hours as opposed ‘credited hours that include add-ons like night pay, overtime, long-range allowance etc etc. Many industries have foregone such archaic payments and have traded them off for an inclusive salary. How ‘productive’ would long haul pilots be if these old-fashioned add-ons were to be discarded? Do shorthaul pilots or pilots in other large and profitable airlines enjoy these rorts that simply overstate how much work pilots actually do?
2. Qantas operates a number of B767s ( B762’s, RR powered B763’s) solely on domestic routes. A number of the international fleet B763’s also operate days of domestic flying each week. All of this domestic flying is crewed by pilots operating to longhaul rules. Compared with the scheduling rules and limitations for pilots operating 737 and A330 domestic flying, the longhaul pilots limitations are so restrictive that they can only be said to be counter-productive to productivity. No wonder Virgin can operate domestically at much lower costs that Qantas, bearing in mind that dollars per month is only part of the cost equation. Five star hotels and the fancy add-ons are also part of the cost differential..
3..An idea that allows senior captains to fly reduced lines as they near retirement. This can only call for more captains to pick up the slack. How can this be productive?
Get with it before its too late, and move into the jet age and the 21st century. There are many other restrictions that prevent productivity. What is the vocal lot going to do about it? Continue to rip-off the company at the expense of their fellow employees jobs and shareholders? Will the current review tear these restrictions down or is the Management too afraid to shut the airline down for fear of retaliatory action from militant selfish and unrealistic pilots?
Go to it boys!
Here a couple of questions for those holding the ‘high productivity’ line. Honest answers may not be nice to read but I challenge thinking Qantas pilots to pen their thoughts.
1.. Of the divisor hours in each bid period, how many are straight duty hours as opposed ‘credited hours that include add-ons like night pay, overtime, long-range allowance etc etc. Many industries have foregone such archaic payments and have traded them off for an inclusive salary. How ‘productive’ would long haul pilots be if these old-fashioned add-ons were to be discarded? Do shorthaul pilots or pilots in other large and profitable airlines enjoy these rorts that simply overstate how much work pilots actually do?
2. Qantas operates a number of B767s ( B762’s, RR powered B763’s) solely on domestic routes. A number of the international fleet B763’s also operate days of domestic flying each week. All of this domestic flying is crewed by pilots operating to longhaul rules. Compared with the scheduling rules and limitations for pilots operating 737 and A330 domestic flying, the longhaul pilots limitations are so restrictive that they can only be said to be counter-productive to productivity. No wonder Virgin can operate domestically at much lower costs that Qantas, bearing in mind that dollars per month is only part of the cost equation. Five star hotels and the fancy add-ons are also part of the cost differential..
3..An idea that allows senior captains to fly reduced lines as they near retirement. This can only call for more captains to pick up the slack. How can this be productive?
Get with it before its too late, and move into the jet age and the 21st century. There are many other restrictions that prevent productivity. What is the vocal lot going to do about it? Continue to rip-off the company at the expense of their fellow employees jobs and shareholders? Will the current review tear these restrictions down or is the Management too afraid to shut the airline down for fear of retaliatory action from militant selfish and unrealistic pilots?
Go to it boys!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Hey Don, why don't you direct your Q's to the schedulers?
It is they - not the pilots - who promulgate the rosters.
After all, pilots are only really glorified bus drivers.
It is they - not the pilots - who promulgate the rosters.
After all, pilots are only really glorified bus drivers.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Where people don't care
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Kaptin, 'pilots are only really glorified bus drivers'? Your words, but I thought 'deified' was considered more appropriate than 'glorified'. That said, it's a pity you didn't have pay and conditions more like those endured by the humble bus driver!
Let's get serious for a moment and not get into a sledging match. The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees. It's therefore senseless to ask the schedulers these questions as they cannot speak for the people who demand (I can't say negotiate) the conditions. If there's a scheduler reading this topic, , then he/she could really lift the lid on some of the very restrictive practices and unrealistic working conditions enforced and enyoyed by their flying colleagues.
Let's get serious for a moment and not get into a sledging match. The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees. It's therefore senseless to ask the schedulers these questions as they cannot speak for the people who demand (I can't say negotiate) the conditions. If there's a scheduler reading this topic, , then he/she could really lift the lid on some of the very restrictive practices and unrealistic working conditions enforced and enyoyed by their flying colleagues.
Nunc est bibendum
ROFLMAO @ Don.
1. Don, I once did a bit of a survey about BP206 (about three years ago) and here are some interesting stats from then for you.
Credited hours: 170 (for an eight week period)
Stick hours: 149
Duty Time: 228 hours
Days off: 20
If you work that out by RPKs I think you'll find dollar for dollar that QF 767 drivers are amongst the most conservatively priced in the world.
Admittedly I haven't done the figures recently
2. You're kidding aren't you? We carry 250 passengers on a domestic 767 on a long haul award. The company makes a killing from that. Again, going on RPKs for tech crew costs the 767 is substantially CHEAPER than the QF 737. Going on my ball park figures of what PPRUNE throws up for VB crews then we are pretty close to similar per seat. Five star hotels? That is not a requirement. What IS a requirement is a room that can be made to be dark, quiet, climatically controlled, have meals at times of our choosing (considering that we often arrive on an international flight a weird hours and depart on a domestic flight) and a few other bits and pieces. These are SAFETY issues and if you choose to compromise on any of these then you deserve what you get.
I may be wrong on this one but I'm not sure that the A330 has the same dispensation on rostering that the 737 has.
3. Sorry, that doesn't exist at the moment. They are talking about it but considering that four sim sessions a year is MUCH cheaper than the superannuation that cuts out at 55 then the company is on a winner here! A lot of guys who get out between 55 and 60 would be much more likely to go on if they could fly half a line. It actually GIVES the company more flexibility as it means that they aren't paying 744 superannuation to a bloke under 55 and actually have MORE crew to call on in the event of a disruption
Overall, not a bad wind up but not well thought through. The bit that gives you away though is the 'selfish, unrealistic' bizzo. That and the 'ripping off the company', 'other employees jobs...shareholders...' I am a shareholder as is EVERY other pilot in QF and exactly who's job are we causing the expense of? Besides that, compared to most of the developed world (except for VB and NZ), QF are pretty cheap in all areas of tech crew. Can't wait until QF has been torn down and the next generation views YOU Don as being selfish, unrealistic etc, etc.
Still, you've given me a good chuckle Don which otherwise has made up for a pretty ordianary day. The problem with wind ups though is that to make any headway, you have to make general and emotive statements 'fancy add ons', 'rip off the company', 'challenge', 'thinking QF pilots' etc, etc. Unfortunately, this generally shows the wind up merchant to be lacking substance, wit, decency and any substantial ability to accurately create a discussion.
Have a nice day.
Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?
BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!
Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?
BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!
1. Don, I once did a bit of a survey about BP206 (about three years ago) and here are some interesting stats from then for you.
Credited hours: 170 (for an eight week period)
Stick hours: 149
Duty Time: 228 hours
Days off: 20
If you work that out by RPKs I think you'll find dollar for dollar that QF 767 drivers are amongst the most conservatively priced in the world.
Admittedly I haven't done the figures recently
2. You're kidding aren't you? We carry 250 passengers on a domestic 767 on a long haul award. The company makes a killing from that. Again, going on RPKs for tech crew costs the 767 is substantially CHEAPER than the QF 737. Going on my ball park figures of what PPRUNE throws up for VB crews then we are pretty close to similar per seat. Five star hotels? That is not a requirement. What IS a requirement is a room that can be made to be dark, quiet, climatically controlled, have meals at times of our choosing (considering that we often arrive on an international flight a weird hours and depart on a domestic flight) and a few other bits and pieces. These are SAFETY issues and if you choose to compromise on any of these then you deserve what you get.
I may be wrong on this one but I'm not sure that the A330 has the same dispensation on rostering that the 737 has.
3. Sorry, that doesn't exist at the moment. They are talking about it but considering that four sim sessions a year is MUCH cheaper than the superannuation that cuts out at 55 then the company is on a winner here! A lot of guys who get out between 55 and 60 would be much more likely to go on if they could fly half a line. It actually GIVES the company more flexibility as it means that they aren't paying 744 superannuation to a bloke under 55 and actually have MORE crew to call on in the event of a disruption
Overall, not a bad wind up but not well thought through. The bit that gives you away though is the 'selfish, unrealistic' bizzo. That and the 'ripping off the company', 'other employees jobs...shareholders...' I am a shareholder as is EVERY other pilot in QF and exactly who's job are we causing the expense of? Besides that, compared to most of the developed world (except for VB and NZ), QF are pretty cheap in all areas of tech crew. Can't wait until QF has been torn down and the next generation views YOU Don as being selfish, unrealistic etc, etc.
Still, you've given me a good chuckle Don which otherwise has made up for a pretty ordianary day. The problem with wind ups though is that to make any headway, you have to make general and emotive statements 'fancy add ons', 'rip off the company', 'challenge', 'thinking QF pilots' etc, etc. Unfortunately, this generally shows the wind up merchant to be lacking substance, wit, decency and any substantial ability to accurately create a discussion.
Have a nice day.
Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?
BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!
Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?
BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When they let the envious non pilots on to this and other forums the quality of post dropped considerably. Why bother answering when envy and ill informed opinion are the drivers of the question.
Tell us my esteemed learned friend, what are your qualifications and experience? Live a day in my shoes before commenting on my profession.
You question people who have in excess of 20 years in their profession before they gain the rank of Captain. Who daily are the fee earners of the organization. If the Flight Crew don't do what they do then there is no Airline! You don't have much of an Airline without Pilots and Flight Engineers. Who's going to safely transport all those customers?
Go back to your bean counting hole and work out a way to refinance and hedge and pay yourself less, and when you've done that , do it again!
Loser!!!!!!!
Tell us my esteemed learned friend, what are your qualifications and experience? Live a day in my shoes before commenting on my profession.
You question people who have in excess of 20 years in their profession before they gain the rank of Captain. Who daily are the fee earners of the organization. If the Flight Crew don't do what they do then there is no Airline! You don't have much of an Airline without Pilots and Flight Engineers. Who's going to safely transport all those customers?
Go back to your bean counting hole and work out a way to refinance and hedge and pay yourself less, and when you've done that , do it again!
Loser!!!!!!!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
pilots are only really glorified bus drivers.
Yes Don, it's true, just ask Bob Hawke. But then again no need to - EVERY non-pilot REALLY knows just how easy it is to be a pilot....geez, mate, look how many movies have been made where good old John Citizen, who has only a few hours flying experience has had to jump into the seat of a Jumbo and save the day!
Piece of p!ss really - but shhh, don't tell too many others about our secret, Don.
But you know the REALLY good part, we get paid SQUILLIONS to do this p!ss-easy job...and then it's only for about 3 hours per day, a couple of times a week. If the Crew Scheduler tries to MAKE us do any more than that, then THE COMPANY stops them.
The Company is full of idiots you know Don - they employ negotiators (on salaries FAR more than the squillions we pilots get) who are so easily bluffed at contract renewal time, that even half-smart men such as yourself, Don, could do a supremely better job!
It's OBVIOUS that you have an in-depth knowledge of these industrial matters, Don, by your deeply thought out and intricate sentence that you composed, when you wrote,
"The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees."
You had ME thinking about that one for hours, Don.
Mate, you're a frickin' GENIUS.
Interesting post, Keg - but wasted on the Dons. I seriously doubt that he'd know the difference between a B767, B744 and an AK30!
Yes Don, it's true, just ask Bob Hawke. But then again no need to - EVERY non-pilot REALLY knows just how easy it is to be a pilot....geez, mate, look how many movies have been made where good old John Citizen, who has only a few hours flying experience has had to jump into the seat of a Jumbo and save the day!
Piece of p!ss really - but shhh, don't tell too many others about our secret, Don.
But you know the REALLY good part, we get paid SQUILLIONS to do this p!ss-easy job...and then it's only for about 3 hours per day, a couple of times a week. If the Crew Scheduler tries to MAKE us do any more than that, then THE COMPANY stops them.
The Company is full of idiots you know Don - they employ negotiators (on salaries FAR more than the squillions we pilots get) who are so easily bluffed at contract renewal time, that even half-smart men such as yourself, Don, could do a supremely better job!
It's OBVIOUS that you have an in-depth knowledge of these industrial matters, Don, by your deeply thought out and intricate sentence that you composed, when you wrote,
"The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees."
You had ME thinking about that one for hours, Don.
Mate, you're a frickin' GENIUS.
Interesting post, Keg - but wasted on the Dons. I seriously doubt that he'd know the difference between a B767, B744 and an AK30!
.....err Don;....Don.........are you there ?
The silence is deafening.
The silence is deafening.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, Don.
Why didn't you just say, "I hate pilots, particularly Qantas pilots!!"
It would have stated your case much more clearly than the bullsh*t you have already written.
Why didn't you just say, "I hate pilots, particularly Qantas pilots!!"
It would have stated your case much more clearly than the bullsh*t you have already written.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Be advised that administrative staff will not be available on Monday 4th of August due to the Bank Holiday.
I didn't know that Qantas was a bank!!!!!!
(As an aside the lovely Credit Union staff will be working Monday as they don't get the Bank Holiday)
What the!!!!!!
Don, are your initials I.H., M.B., D.C., or T.J.?????
Flight Crew and Ground Engineers do 100% of their job regardless of the number of passengers on aeroplanes. If there are less passengers is that their fault? No! It is the job of the marketing and sales departments to get passengers.
Spend the money, time and energy to get the necessary licences and experience required and you can be part of the Flight Crew fraternity too, Don. Otherwise, don't let your envy consume you, it could be cancerous!
Got to go now and get paid 5hrs 10 mins for a 10 hour day. 3hrs sitting on my arse in BNE. Unproductive, bite me!!!
I didn't know that Qantas was a bank!!!!!!
(As an aside the lovely Credit Union staff will be working Monday as they don't get the Bank Holiday)
What the!!!!!!
Don, are your initials I.H., M.B., D.C., or T.J.?????
Flight Crew and Ground Engineers do 100% of their job regardless of the number of passengers on aeroplanes. If there are less passengers is that their fault? No! It is the job of the marketing and sales departments to get passengers.
Spend the money, time and energy to get the necessary licences and experience required and you can be part of the Flight Crew fraternity too, Don. Otherwise, don't let your envy consume you, it could be cancerous!
Got to go now and get paid 5hrs 10 mins for a 10 hour day. 3hrs sitting on my arse in BNE. Unproductive, bite me!!!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Be advised that administrative staff will not be available on Monday 4th of August due to the Bank Holiday.
It'll be interesting to see what effect that will have on QF's income earning ability.
And you're right, jake, exactly HOW does QANTAS administrative staff reckon they qualify for a Bank Holiday?
That being the case, there are probably a few male employees who believe that they deserve to take the Queen's Birthday as paid leave too.
It'll be interesting to see what effect that will have on QF's income earning ability.
And you're right, jake, exactly HOW does QANTAS administrative staff reckon they qualify for a Bank Holiday?
That being the case, there are probably a few male employees who believe that they deserve to take the Queen's Birthday as paid leave too.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a pre 89 (not ansett) pilot I'm often embarrasseed by the input of those like the kap. It is a surprise that he didn't find a connection with 89, but then I suppose he did with the veiled Hawke reference to bus drivers. Perhaps the Qantas pilots ar not the ony ones living in the past when it comes down to conditions.
Nobody is suggesting that it's easy to be ap pilot. It's not, but we're not brain surgeons either.
Sure no bank holidays and I'm disappointed by thhat. Maybe the QF negotiating team could get onto that.
I have QF mates, and they assure me that they are laughing about their contracct. They are unproductive by todays standards and they admit it.
Anybody who says otherwise is having themselves on.
Nobody is suggesting that it's easy to be ap pilot. It's not, but we're not brain surgeons either.
Sure no bank holidays and I'm disappointed by thhat. Maybe the QF negotiating team could get onto that.
I have QF mates, and they assure me that they are laughing about their contracct. They are unproductive by todays standards and they admit it.
Anybody who says otherwise is having themselves on.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a wind up I know but I just have reply!
Bank Holiday? Well there you go. A fine example of what is happening in todays airline. While people up top are bending over backwards to find a new way to screw their pilots on just about anything, the office staff are chasing eachother around with paper planes or forwarding those funny emails that most pilots don't have the time to read anyway.
And the reason why? Pilots like their job and will hold on to them no matter what. Put one of these office types under any pressure at all and they'll quickly find another place to forward emails and make paper planes. Management and beancounters know this and work on it. The same old saying: supply and demand.
A boss of mine once said "mate if that bloke had a day in your shoes he'd f**ken keel over and die".
I tell you what, if the day ever comes that there really is a shortage of pilots I hope I'm around. There will be some people on the backfoot I'll tell you.
As for the 74 captain and the 5 star hotel? Damn right the bloke deserves it- worked his whole damn life like a f**cken slave to get there. Is in charge of 400 people and should he have a bad day will find himself unemployed at the drop of a hat.
The money these guys make is just backpay for the years in GA when they weren't paid at all.
So before the "experts" get too excited, come out a day of door knocking in GA and see what these guys/gals had to do to get there.
Wake up.
Rant over.
Bank Holiday? Well there you go. A fine example of what is happening in todays airline. While people up top are bending over backwards to find a new way to screw their pilots on just about anything, the office staff are chasing eachother around with paper planes or forwarding those funny emails that most pilots don't have the time to read anyway.
And the reason why? Pilots like their job and will hold on to them no matter what. Put one of these office types under any pressure at all and they'll quickly find another place to forward emails and make paper planes. Management and beancounters know this and work on it. The same old saying: supply and demand.
A boss of mine once said "mate if that bloke had a day in your shoes he'd f**ken keel over and die".
I tell you what, if the day ever comes that there really is a shortage of pilots I hope I'm around. There will be some people on the backfoot I'll tell you.
As for the 74 captain and the 5 star hotel? Damn right the bloke deserves it- worked his whole damn life like a f**cken slave to get there. Is in charge of 400 people and should he have a bad day will find himself unemployed at the drop of a hat.
The money these guys make is just backpay for the years in GA when they weren't paid at all.
So before the "experts" get too excited, come out a day of door knocking in GA and see what these guys/gals had to do to get there.
Wake up.
Rant over.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Where people don't care
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an opportunity has been lost to have a sensible discussion and to bring some facts out into the open. Let's be honest, most of the responses, putting the invective aside, imply that the writers protesteth just a little too much. Has a raw nerve been hit?
No Three Bars and Jake whateveryou're called, I am not consumed by envy or any other of the perjoratives you'd like to sling at me. BTW, what on earth has a Bank Holiday got to do with this topic? Now, as a matter of fact, I was one of your number until I moved on to another calling. I am however concerned that a proud and mighty airline will be torn apart because of the intransigence of particular groups of people who refuse to move on and join the modern world.
The reason why Qantas has set up and expanded Australian Airlines and expanded QantasLink, and putting Jet Connect on the Tasman is very simple: costs are too high and productivtiy too low because of out-dated work rules. You can't get away from the indisputable facts. A group of Australian pilots shot themselves in both feet brilliantly some 14 years ago, and the way things are going another group will be doing the same in the not too distant future. There are many ways to skin a cat as we all know. Likewise, there are many ways to skin a union without having a brawl.
GT_R and VB_Capt are spot on. Why can't a 767 driver operate to the same rules as a 737 driver? Simple, the parties can't agree. Could the lack of agreement be because AIPA would be wanting more than its pound of flesh for such a "concession"? But let's compare like with like. How many pilots do Singapore Airlines schedule for example between Sydney and Singapore? Qantas uses three. There are quite a few that use two without any reduction of safety standards. How may drivers are used by Cathay between Sydney and HK? Qantas uses three, what about Cathay? This is what productiviuty is all about. How many other companies pay the premiums that the Qantas longhaul pilots enjoy? Why do Qantas Captains get paid double the travelling allowance than do other crew members? This is another example of a high cost that affects productivity. The amount may is not at all big but when all of these little numbers are added up, the sum becomes quite significant.
Can we please have some open robust discussion without getting personal? Being snippy only demeans the writers. It reflects poorly on professionals. What some of you don't understand is that the comments are not made against you as individuals. Like all groups of people, individual pilots are mostly hard working and honest, just like all other groups of citizens of the world. In other words, don't take things personally. We all love the industry, else we wouldn't be in it, but this should not discourage or stifle open debate without the fear of being savaged by some apparently unhappy people just because one holds an opposing view.
Lastly, be assured that this is no "wind up".
No Three Bars and Jake whateveryou're called, I am not consumed by envy or any other of the perjoratives you'd like to sling at me. BTW, what on earth has a Bank Holiday got to do with this topic? Now, as a matter of fact, I was one of your number until I moved on to another calling. I am however concerned that a proud and mighty airline will be torn apart because of the intransigence of particular groups of people who refuse to move on and join the modern world.
The reason why Qantas has set up and expanded Australian Airlines and expanded QantasLink, and putting Jet Connect on the Tasman is very simple: costs are too high and productivtiy too low because of out-dated work rules. You can't get away from the indisputable facts. A group of Australian pilots shot themselves in both feet brilliantly some 14 years ago, and the way things are going another group will be doing the same in the not too distant future. There are many ways to skin a cat as we all know. Likewise, there are many ways to skin a union without having a brawl.
GT_R and VB_Capt are spot on. Why can't a 767 driver operate to the same rules as a 737 driver? Simple, the parties can't agree. Could the lack of agreement be because AIPA would be wanting more than its pound of flesh for such a "concession"? But let's compare like with like. How many pilots do Singapore Airlines schedule for example between Sydney and Singapore? Qantas uses three. There are quite a few that use two without any reduction of safety standards. How may drivers are used by Cathay between Sydney and HK? Qantas uses three, what about Cathay? This is what productiviuty is all about. How many other companies pay the premiums that the Qantas longhaul pilots enjoy? Why do Qantas Captains get paid double the travelling allowance than do other crew members? This is another example of a high cost that affects productivity. The amount may is not at all big but when all of these little numbers are added up, the sum becomes quite significant.
Can we please have some open robust discussion without getting personal? Being snippy only demeans the writers. It reflects poorly on professionals. What some of you don't understand is that the comments are not made against you as individuals. Like all groups of people, individual pilots are mostly hard working and honest, just like all other groups of citizens of the world. In other words, don't take things personally. We all love the industry, else we wouldn't be in it, but this should not discourage or stifle open debate without the fear of being savaged by some apparently unhappy people just because one holds an opposing view.
Lastly, be assured that this is no "wind up".
Don Esson,
If you are going to make assertions, at least get your facts correct. Your ignorance of reality makes me wonder if you really were "one of our numbers".... Qantas does NOT schedule three pilots between Sydney and Singapore - it is a two pilot operation. I guarantee you. Ohhh.... you are getting confused with the heavy pilot situation where extra guys are assigned to the crew for SYD-SIN because the next night they are required for SIN-LHR/FRA/CDG ?? So what is the alternative - they WALK to Singapore and meet the other two pilots there? Pax them I hear people saying? Yes, been done, but... ohmygosh, that takes up a commercial seat, ie, lost revenue. And besides, better to have the junior pilot being paid to be a crewmember than being paid to drink red, yes? So how would you do it better?
Or maybe you are confused by SYD-SIN.... via BNE. The total duty time then requires - by law - 3 pilots. Same same the QF10 SIN-SYD... via MEL. Other airlines are no different in that regard when duty time exceeds 11 hrs, not even starting to consider the saftey issues of back of the clock flying.
So how many pilots does CX run between HKG and SYD? You didn't say - don't you know? Well, I do know - and it's NOT two! Oh, and it's not one either!
Trust me, pal - QF rosters two pilots whenever it can. Have YOU ever flown MNL-SYD back of the clock? Or CGK-SYD? Mate - it's two pilots - promise - been there, done that many times, and at the end you are stuffed. Imagine HKG-SYD or HKG-MEL with just two pilots.... Just what does the public want - two totally shagged pilots trying to land in MEL in fog, going around and diverting to SYD?
Give me a break, mate, and go back to whatever your calling in life is now, and let us get on with doing our 10 hour days for 5:10 worth of pay.
If you are going to make assertions, at least get your facts correct. Your ignorance of reality makes me wonder if you really were "one of our numbers".... Qantas does NOT schedule three pilots between Sydney and Singapore - it is a two pilot operation. I guarantee you. Ohhh.... you are getting confused with the heavy pilot situation where extra guys are assigned to the crew for SYD-SIN because the next night they are required for SIN-LHR/FRA/CDG ?? So what is the alternative - they WALK to Singapore and meet the other two pilots there? Pax them I hear people saying? Yes, been done, but... ohmygosh, that takes up a commercial seat, ie, lost revenue. And besides, better to have the junior pilot being paid to be a crewmember than being paid to drink red, yes? So how would you do it better?
Or maybe you are confused by SYD-SIN.... via BNE. The total duty time then requires - by law - 3 pilots. Same same the QF10 SIN-SYD... via MEL. Other airlines are no different in that regard when duty time exceeds 11 hrs, not even starting to consider the saftey issues of back of the clock flying.
So how many pilots does CX run between HKG and SYD? You didn't say - don't you know? Well, I do know - and it's NOT two! Oh, and it's not one either!
Trust me, pal - QF rosters two pilots whenever it can. Have YOU ever flown MNL-SYD back of the clock? Or CGK-SYD? Mate - it's two pilots - promise - been there, done that many times, and at the end you are stuffed. Imagine HKG-SYD or HKG-MEL with just two pilots.... Just what does the public want - two totally shagged pilots trying to land in MEL in fog, going around and diverting to SYD?
Give me a break, mate, and go back to whatever your calling in life is now, and let us get on with doing our 10 hour days for 5:10 worth of pay.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: sydney
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jakethemuss said he had to leave so he could get paid 5hr 10 min for a 10 hour day. If your a qf 737 captain, you'll earn a gross amount of approximatley $1144 for that shift or an average of $114.40 per hour for the whole duty pre tax. Obviously, its even more dismal if your an F/O......have people been suggesting that qantas pilots are over paid??? Considering the technical nature of our job and the responsibility that goes with it, remembering of course that we are 'senior officers of the company', such an observation is ridiculous in the extreme.
The situation is pretty simple to me, its not that qf pilots are overpaid, its the fact that VB pilots are being ripped off! and this creates a false illusion that qf pilots are overpaid. What's the solution?? I don't know.....its more complicated than how it appears.
pb
The situation is pretty simple to me, its not that qf pilots are overpaid, its the fact that VB pilots are being ripped off! and this creates a false illusion that qf pilots are overpaid. What's the solution?? I don't know.....its more complicated than how it appears.
pb
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it would make a lot of sense and be beneficial for both the company and the pilots if the 767 could operate domestically to a duty time award similar to short haul.
But, commercially aware isn't exactly the phrase that comes to mind when one thinks about 767 drivers.
But, commercially aware isn't exactly the phrase that comes to mind when one thinks about 767 drivers.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now Trevor, I was not getting personal.
Just because other people do something, does that make it right? Or SAFE!
Talk to any 737 pilot who has done a SYD-PER-SYD and worn a delay to take the TOD out to 14hrs. How did you feel on arrival SYD? What if you then had to divert?
Someone has to maintain the standard. How would you like that Perth return done? The CAO48 exemption is a poor way of rostering pilots at times and damn unsafe. Particularly when used in conjunction with an incentive based pay system. Gee, I don't feel that flash but if I don't go it will cost me $500. What will I do?
You, Big Don, are going to hate FRMS rostering when time zone changes are taken into effect if you don't like the current system.
Unproductive, Bite Me!!!!
Just because other people do something, does that make it right? Or SAFE!
Talk to any 737 pilot who has done a SYD-PER-SYD and worn a delay to take the TOD out to 14hrs. How did you feel on arrival SYD? What if you then had to divert?
Someone has to maintain the standard. How would you like that Perth return done? The CAO48 exemption is a poor way of rostering pilots at times and damn unsafe. Particularly when used in conjunction with an incentive based pay system. Gee, I don't feel that flash but if I don't go it will cost me $500. What will I do?
You, Big Don, are going to hate FRMS rostering when time zone changes are taken into effect if you don't like the current system.
Unproductive, Bite Me!!!!
Last edited by jakethemuss; 3rd Aug 2003 at 20:37.