Aviation Security Services
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Aviation Security Services
Hi all
Just a comment/debate on the necessity of searching airline pilots before they board their aircraft when they going to be locked in the cockpit anyway?
What happens if they and search you? Would you refuse? Even though I have nothing to hide but what a waste of my time.
I mean would I want to hijack my own plane? Have you ever heard of a pilot hijacking his own plane?
The question then arises about the pilot giving his weapon to a passenger to hijack the plane. Um...... YEA RIGHT.
I had an incident today where the security guy tried to stop and search me. I refused and walked away from the security check back into the terminal.
I then took the back route behind the counter where the bags go, around the security check point to my plane.
What happens if I were a 747 pilot in Auckland and I was making my way through the final security check just prior to boarding my plane and I refused to the check. After all in Auckland, you have to go through Customs and a xray machine before you get to the gate anyway. Then on top of that you get xrayed AGAIN!!!
What if I refused? What if the Captain, F/O and S/O all refused? Image it, standing with the rest of the crew waiting to preflight the plane and get navigation setup, with the 300 odd pax behind you waiting to board and refusing to be searched again. "No I refuse to be search again, I've been searched already and I'm going into a secured cockpit with no access to the pax for 14 hours".
I would go back to the crewroom and wait. What would the guy do? Delay the plane with 300 odd pax looking at him. Delay the next plane that wants my gate after I taxi, hold up the 14 flight? I wonder how much money would be lost in this little incident?
I refuse to be searched time and time again when there's nothing there. As crew locked into a secure cockpit why should I be searched.
The security measures that were put in place after Sep 11 were made without thinking by the powers up stairs. There has to be a balance to it and right now there is no balance.
Look at the case recently on a Thai Airlines flight where the guy stabbed another passsenger with a metal fork. After Sep 11 metal knifes were taken away. Replaced with plastic ones but still metal forks are allowed.
The guy with the wooden stake is another example. Would go through the detectors without a problem.
What about the guy sitting at the end of the runway with a surface to air missile in his hands?
Let's face it people, the security issue is very messy and has huge holes in it. I think I might have expanded the orginal topic here but lets have some common sense measures in place.
For one - let the crew go through the whole security thing. They let you have an axe on the flight deck but tweezers are out?
Security get sensible.
If you still want to search me then I'll continue to go around the back to get to my plane. Then I can carry whatever I like onto the plane and I'll still be secure in my cockpit!!!
Just a comment/debate on the necessity of searching airline pilots before they board their aircraft when they going to be locked in the cockpit anyway?
What happens if they and search you? Would you refuse? Even though I have nothing to hide but what a waste of my time.
I mean would I want to hijack my own plane? Have you ever heard of a pilot hijacking his own plane?
The question then arises about the pilot giving his weapon to a passenger to hijack the plane. Um...... YEA RIGHT.
I had an incident today where the security guy tried to stop and search me. I refused and walked away from the security check back into the terminal.
I then took the back route behind the counter where the bags go, around the security check point to my plane.
What happens if I were a 747 pilot in Auckland and I was making my way through the final security check just prior to boarding my plane and I refused to the check. After all in Auckland, you have to go through Customs and a xray machine before you get to the gate anyway. Then on top of that you get xrayed AGAIN!!!
What if I refused? What if the Captain, F/O and S/O all refused? Image it, standing with the rest of the crew waiting to preflight the plane and get navigation setup, with the 300 odd pax behind you waiting to board and refusing to be searched again. "No I refuse to be search again, I've been searched already and I'm going into a secured cockpit with no access to the pax for 14 hours".
I would go back to the crewroom and wait. What would the guy do? Delay the plane with 300 odd pax looking at him. Delay the next plane that wants my gate after I taxi, hold up the 14 flight? I wonder how much money would be lost in this little incident?
I refuse to be searched time and time again when there's nothing there. As crew locked into a secure cockpit why should I be searched.
The security measures that were put in place after Sep 11 were made without thinking by the powers up stairs. There has to be a balance to it and right now there is no balance.
Look at the case recently on a Thai Airlines flight where the guy stabbed another passsenger with a metal fork. After Sep 11 metal knifes were taken away. Replaced with plastic ones but still metal forks are allowed.
The guy with the wooden stake is another example. Would go through the detectors without a problem.
What about the guy sitting at the end of the runway with a surface to air missile in his hands?
Let's face it people, the security issue is very messy and has huge holes in it. I think I might have expanded the orginal topic here but lets have some common sense measures in place.
For one - let the crew go through the whole security thing. They let you have an axe on the flight deck but tweezers are out?
Security get sensible.
If you still want to search me then I'll continue to go around the back to get to my plane. Then I can carry whatever I like onto the plane and I'll still be secure in my cockpit!!!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Zealand
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I used to wonder the same thing - re: flight deck crew and AVSEC. Didnt make much sense originally - If the pilot wanted to hijack the plane he already had it 
.
Think back to the Silk Air crash a few years back tho
I mean would I want to hijack my own plane? Have you ever heard of a pilot hijacking his own plane? - You probably wouldnt but mayby your captain/FO/SO does as it was in that case.
There certainly are alot of loop holes I too have noticed but I think a the end of the day if you are determined to get a weapon/bomb aboard you could.
What I find unusual is that at alot of the larger regional airports they have thier usual set up of x-rays, metal detectors etc but if you go around the the GA area all thats there is a rusty old gate usually left open which leads to the main apron anyway
Half of those security 'policies' down at Intl are requirements by the Yanks for operators flying there.
.Think back to the Silk Air crash a few years back tho
I mean would I want to hijack my own plane? Have you ever heard of a pilot hijacking his own plane? - You probably wouldnt but mayby your captain/FO/SO does as it was in that case.
There certainly are alot of loop holes I too have noticed but I think a the end of the day if you are determined to get a weapon/bomb aboard you could.
What I find unusual is that at alot of the larger regional airports they have thier usual set up of x-rays, metal detectors etc but if you go around the the GA area all thats there is a rusty old gate usually left open which leads to the main apron anyway
Half of those security 'policies' down at Intl are requirements by the Yanks for operators flying there.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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The airlines are obliged to follow the security protocols in place at airports, otherwise the government can withdraw the landing rights. A good example are those new flight deck doors: no door = no USA!
I for one, would just like to get to the plane and avoid the rubber glove approach by talking back to security
I for one, would just like to get to the plane and avoid the rubber glove approach by talking back to security
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
IMO, you are right, Double Cock - however rationale doesn't enter into it, otherwise the bloody great axe in the cockpit would have been removed!
It's a case of beeing seen to be doing something to allay pax who are concerned.
The fact that some old codger managed to get a box cutter...yes, the very same weapon used in the 911 hijackings....onboard an Australian aircraft a month or so ago, AND that security then admitted that they are UNABLE to detect the same, really shows how artificial these ASS are!
But by the same token, 911 forever changed the mindset of crews, and "the good travelling public" (thanks for that one, Winstun) wrt hijackers, and how to handle them.
For the trained terrorist - or for anyone who wants to use a little imagination - there is still a myriad of weapons that could be taken onboard an aircraft even with the current security measures in place.
However the fact of the matter is, the hijacker(s) will ALWAYS be outnumbered by crew+pax on a large commercial airline aircraft.
It's a case of beeing seen to be doing something to allay pax who are concerned.
The fact that some old codger managed to get a box cutter...yes, the very same weapon used in the 911 hijackings....onboard an Australian aircraft a month or so ago, AND that security then admitted that they are UNABLE to detect the same, really shows how artificial these ASS are!
But by the same token, 911 forever changed the mindset of crews, and "the good travelling public" (thanks for that one, Winstun) wrt hijackers, and how to handle them.
For the trained terrorist - or for anyone who wants to use a little imagination - there is still a myriad of weapons that could be taken onboard an aircraft even with the current security measures in place.
However the fact of the matter is, the hijacker(s) will ALWAYS be outnumbered by crew+pax on a large commercial airline aircraft.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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The simple fact is I don't need a crash axe, knife or even a set of nail clippers to crash my aircraft... a full nose down input on the controls at 100 ft will do the trick! It is a matter of trust...if I am wearing the uniform and I.D. I have been entrusted with the lives of all those who board my aircraft.
What I resent as I get the third degree at security is the very public perception that I can't be trusted with that deadly can of Rexona or those lethal nail clippers.
It would seem that the object of the exercise is to show that everyone is being treated equally, however when it comes to the flight I'm about to undertake I'm not equal...I'm at the controls.
Perhaps those learned gentlemen at C.A.S.A. would care to enlighten some of these security staff of that fact.
What I resent as I get the third degree at security is the very public perception that I can't be trusted with that deadly can of Rexona or those lethal nail clippers.
It would seem that the object of the exercise is to show that everyone is being treated equally, however when it comes to the flight I'm about to undertake I'm not equal...I'm at the controls.
Perhaps those learned gentlemen at C.A.S.A. would care to enlighten some of these security staff of that fact.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Anyone can "borrow" an ID card and masquerade as the owner airside. To do whatever they like, I suppose. Either on their own or in conjunction with others. Maybe to leave a weapon somewhere for someone else (pax maybe) to pick up.
Untill security can match an individual to the dodgey photo on an ASIC card with some degree of certainty the sort of inconveniance Two Cocks reports is bound to continue. Or at least it should.
Look at the other extreme. I have operated at a joint civil/military airport for the last five years. Only had to get an ASIC in the last couple of months. Saw security a couple of times. Waved as they drove past in the distance.
That aside Two Cocks I would probably do the same.
Untill security can match an individual to the dodgey photo on an ASIC card with some degree of certainty the sort of inconveniance Two Cocks reports is bound to continue. Or at least it should.
Look at the other extreme. I have operated at a joint civil/military airport for the last five years. Only had to get an ASIC in the last couple of months. Saw security a couple of times. Waved as they drove past in the distance.
That aside Two Cocks I would probably do the same.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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It's interesting to note that in the latest Flight International magazine that the Americans are looking at certain people riding the jump seat again.
These people would include the company staff, company family and other crew.
Can't remember the exact details but ALPA and the FAA I think have got together to see about a 6 month trial period in the States.
Will be interesting to see that happen. It's about time I reackon.
By the way *Lancer*, when I travelled throught the States last year, you said
"A good example are those new flight deck doors: no door = no USA!"
Well, the door on my United Flight from LA heading to Chicago was left open most of the flight, with both the Captain and F/O making regular stops to the John. Probably had a bad curry. But none the less the door was open.
I agree with Two Cocks on some of the points. Yes a balance needs to be met with Security. I think all those involved should sit down and discuss future security measures.
These people would include the company staff, company family and other crew.
Can't remember the exact details but ALPA and the FAA I think have got together to see about a 6 month trial period in the States.
Will be interesting to see that happen. It's about time I reackon.
By the way *Lancer*, when I travelled throught the States last year, you said
"A good example are those new flight deck doors: no door = no USA!"
Well, the door on my United Flight from LA heading to Chicago was left open most of the flight, with both the Captain and F/O making regular stops to the John. Probably had a bad curry. But none the less the door was open.
I agree with Two Cocks on some of the points. Yes a balance needs to be met with Security. I think all those involved should sit down and discuss future security measures.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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I'm sick of Security
I too have just flown a number of long international sectors with QF. Over the top checkin security, then metal cutlery to eat with.Howvere I appreciated it as you cannot even butter a bread roll properly with those bloody plastic things.
My wife decided to keep her half length metal nail file to do her nails with. If I lose it, I lose it, but ****** 'em I'm taking it with me she said.
Her nail file went through screening in her purse in a Qld regional city, in Sydney, in LAX, in Seattle, in Chicago, in Nashville, in Washington, in New York, in LAX again and in Sydney. It was detected in Brisbane prior to boarding a Dash 8 after 35 hours travelling and the Security person (uncertain as to whether it was child bearing or ball bearing) almost lept onto the rollers to grab her handbag, rifle through to the purse and claim the said terrorist item. My wife was asked if she was aware it was banned and she answered in the affirmative but that it had passed screening at other Australian Airports and at many major airports in the States to New York and back. Well, you're not getting it back here, she said as she unceremoniously dumped it in the bin then turned her back on my wife and walked over to talk to the screener.
OK, it is a banned object but these people have to learn some customer service. They are NOT our guardians, they do not own the airline, they are her to provide us with a service. If we dont fly, they dont have a job but they really think they are the John Waynes of the sky. The security people in the States on the whole, by contrast, were mostly always pleasant, almost apologetic at some airports to be screening us with a young family etc. Here we are all treated as terrorists. I fly 2 - 4 flights a month and it is getting a bit over the top, or at least their attitude is....and yeah, I'm a pilot too. I also carry an electric razor now as i got sick and tired of having to hand over my can of shaving cream for inspection on overnighters where I had no checked baggage. They inspected it as though it was a bloody atom bomb about to explode.
My wife decided to keep her half length metal nail file to do her nails with. If I lose it, I lose it, but ****** 'em I'm taking it with me she said.
Her nail file went through screening in her purse in a Qld regional city, in Sydney, in LAX, in Seattle, in Chicago, in Nashville, in Washington, in New York, in LAX again and in Sydney. It was detected in Brisbane prior to boarding a Dash 8 after 35 hours travelling and the Security person (uncertain as to whether it was child bearing or ball bearing) almost lept onto the rollers to grab her handbag, rifle through to the purse and claim the said terrorist item. My wife was asked if she was aware it was banned and she answered in the affirmative but that it had passed screening at other Australian Airports and at many major airports in the States to New York and back. Well, you're not getting it back here, she said as she unceremoniously dumped it in the bin then turned her back on my wife and walked over to talk to the screener.
OK, it is a banned object but these people have to learn some customer service. They are NOT our guardians, they do not own the airline, they are her to provide us with a service. If we dont fly, they dont have a job but they really think they are the John Waynes of the sky. The security people in the States on the whole, by contrast, were mostly always pleasant, almost apologetic at some airports to be screening us with a young family etc. Here we are all treated as terrorists. I fly 2 - 4 flights a month and it is getting a bit over the top, or at least their attitude is....and yeah, I'm a pilot too. I also carry an electric razor now as i got sick and tired of having to hand over my can of shaving cream for inspection on overnighters where I had no checked baggage. They inspected it as though it was a bloody atom bomb about to explode.
