Paraidse Lost
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Paraidse Lost
As an observer who wasn't in this country during the dispute I have to say that it is incredible how the obvious is consistently ignored.
A certain pilot at VB who led the revolt in '89 that caused such bitterness for so long ,was ironically the same person who led Australian aviation's pilot salaries to the lowest level ever at the commencement of VB. That same person who advised you all to hold out to the bitter end and call your brothers sc*bs, and tell you not to trust management, has, in his capacity as management lied to you all more than once - haven't you noticed, or don't you wish to see?
Does nobody at all see the irony here?
You're all just numbers fella's. Neither QF or VB care about you, not because they despise you, but because on the balance sheet your costs come up in double negative red. When one is in trouble the balance sheet is the check-list of "where can we cut?"
You lost Ansett. You may lose a very significant part of what QANTAS was, as it morphs into a hybrid to respond to VB. You believe VB is good for the country, good for the public. Open your eyes. It's not dificult to see the illusion.
AN & QF (and TAA before them) were some of the best airlines in the world, and held that quality a lot longer than many can say. Their standards were always higher even though at times you got frustrated with bureaucracy - it is everywhere. The cost duopoly that QF and AN once was was not all that bad for the public. Can any of you say it is better now? The duopoly has different players, and the environment has changed forever.
The subtle incidiousness that has crept into Australian aviation in the past 5 years has ruined what was once an extraordinary example of professionalism. It isn't any more, and maybe that it why there is so much bitterness in your fraternity. QF and AN set world standards in Engineering and Flight Performance and Control. The world learnt from what you did. Boeing used to ask Ansett Engineering how to do certain modifications - NASA uses Ansett's Human Factors course. QF has as many admirers, and achievements. Not any more.
VB has changed the environment. It's not VB's fault - it is what they are. But it is sad. VB cuts costs where AN and QF never dared. You could say it was because QF and AN weren't hard nosed businessmen - that's fair comment. Aussies usually do things for better reasons than most - ethicaly, morally, integrity - catch cries that are nooses around their necks when the upstart turns his attention your way. AN died but has taught you no lessons.
It is no longer a bastion of aviation professionalism, the airline industry of Australia. VB has put paid to that. If any of you VB crews believe that your management know or give a hoot about how well you landed in that crosswind, forget it - all they care about is "did it save me money?"
And yet in the heart of most of you is the reason why you wanted to fly and why you still do, even though you complain so bitterly about your masters. You are all still "steely-eyed missile-men" and you know your sh*t. You're just lost in a world that really doesn't give a sh*t and would replace you with a robot tomorrow.
Since when did it become acceptable to change the standard command experience from 5 years of heavy jet and 5000 hours, to 500 hours on any jet?
Can you not see?
A certain pilot at VB who led the revolt in '89 that caused such bitterness for so long ,was ironically the same person who led Australian aviation's pilot salaries to the lowest level ever at the commencement of VB. That same person who advised you all to hold out to the bitter end and call your brothers sc*bs, and tell you not to trust management, has, in his capacity as management lied to you all more than once - haven't you noticed, or don't you wish to see?
Does nobody at all see the irony here?
You're all just numbers fella's. Neither QF or VB care about you, not because they despise you, but because on the balance sheet your costs come up in double negative red. When one is in trouble the balance sheet is the check-list of "where can we cut?"
You lost Ansett. You may lose a very significant part of what QANTAS was, as it morphs into a hybrid to respond to VB. You believe VB is good for the country, good for the public. Open your eyes. It's not dificult to see the illusion.
AN & QF (and TAA before them) were some of the best airlines in the world, and held that quality a lot longer than many can say. Their standards were always higher even though at times you got frustrated with bureaucracy - it is everywhere. The cost duopoly that QF and AN once was was not all that bad for the public. Can any of you say it is better now? The duopoly has different players, and the environment has changed forever.
The subtle incidiousness that has crept into Australian aviation in the past 5 years has ruined what was once an extraordinary example of professionalism. It isn't any more, and maybe that it why there is so much bitterness in your fraternity. QF and AN set world standards in Engineering and Flight Performance and Control. The world learnt from what you did. Boeing used to ask Ansett Engineering how to do certain modifications - NASA uses Ansett's Human Factors course. QF has as many admirers, and achievements. Not any more.
VB has changed the environment. It's not VB's fault - it is what they are. But it is sad. VB cuts costs where AN and QF never dared. You could say it was because QF and AN weren't hard nosed businessmen - that's fair comment. Aussies usually do things for better reasons than most - ethicaly, morally, integrity - catch cries that are nooses around their necks when the upstart turns his attention your way. AN died but has taught you no lessons.
It is no longer a bastion of aviation professionalism, the airline industry of Australia. VB has put paid to that. If any of you VB crews believe that your management know or give a hoot about how well you landed in that crosswind, forget it - all they care about is "did it save me money?"
And yet in the heart of most of you is the reason why you wanted to fly and why you still do, even though you complain so bitterly about your masters. You are all still "steely-eyed missile-men" and you know your sh*t. You're just lost in a world that really doesn't give a sh*t and would replace you with a robot tomorrow.
Since when did it become acceptable to change the standard command experience from 5 years of heavy jet and 5000 hours, to 500 hours on any jet?
Can you not see?
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You make a number of good points there PL, but I think you lost the arguement when:
At last count NASA had at least 18 names on plaques, one burnt out Apollo and 2 Blown up Shuttles.
Whereas Ansett had 1100 heads, so much for a great Human Factors course.
Pat you on the back with one hand and spear you up the a#%s with the other.
NASA uses Ansett's Human Factors course
Whereas Ansett had 1100 heads, so much for a great Human Factors course.
Pat you on the back with one hand and spear you up the a#%s with the other.
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Well, this could be a good thread,and far be it for me to get picky about some spelling mistakes,but really,you've had time to correct the word paradise. Can we do that now and carry on?
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PL I didn't miss the point I agree with you, but don't go blowing smoke up my a#%s or anybody else's about Ansett's wonderful Human Factors course when it isn't.
If it was so dam go they would still be flying and I'd still be working for them.
If it was so dam go they would still be flying and I'd still be working for them.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"A certain pilot at VB who led the revolt in '89 that caused such bitterness for so long ,was ironically the same person who led Australian aviation's pilot salaries to the lowest level ever at the commencement of VB."
The "certain pilot" is I assume the Chief Pilot of V.B.
Chief Pilots don't set the salaries - they are resposible for overseeing and maintaining flight standards.
The same high flight standards that you referred to when you wrote, "AN & QF (and TAA before them) were some of the best airlines in the world, and held that quality a lot longer than many can say. Their standards were always higher even though at times you got frustrated with bureaucracy.."
It was also during the time that the AFAP represented the pilots of Ansett and TAA, and had some direct input as a "watchdog", that these high standards you mention were achieved, and that pilots' conditions were continually improved.
Virgin Blue is a new airline that once again is working WITH the AFAP, to establish themselves.
Thanks to the Dispute, and the pilots who subsequently joined the 4 now non-existent domestic airlines, everything that had been established over some 40 years was DESTROYED.
That is the reason why current conditions are as they are! Because a selfish relative few thought they THEY could do better alone, than the group!
"Since when did it become acceptable to change the standard command experience from 5 years of heavy jet and 5000 hours, to 500 hours on any jet?
This isn't peculiar to Australia - the standards requirement for command in Japan is 3 years in the company (which can also include time spent in a subsidiary), and TOTAL time 3,000 hours. I can't say that I like it, but that's the way it's gone.
BTW, there was NEVER any requirement to have "5 years of heavy jet".
The Civil Aviation Authority in each country is the one responsible for setting the standards.
If you disagree with it, then write to them.
Alternatively, join the AFAP and voice your opinion to them.
The "certain pilot" is I assume the Chief Pilot of V.B.
Chief Pilots don't set the salaries - they are resposible for overseeing and maintaining flight standards.
The same high flight standards that you referred to when you wrote, "AN & QF (and TAA before them) were some of the best airlines in the world, and held that quality a lot longer than many can say. Their standards were always higher even though at times you got frustrated with bureaucracy.."
It was also during the time that the AFAP represented the pilots of Ansett and TAA, and had some direct input as a "watchdog", that these high standards you mention were achieved, and that pilots' conditions were continually improved.
Virgin Blue is a new airline that once again is working WITH the AFAP, to establish themselves.
Thanks to the Dispute, and the pilots who subsequently joined the 4 now non-existent domestic airlines, everything that had been established over some 40 years was DESTROYED.
That is the reason why current conditions are as they are! Because a selfish relative few thought they THEY could do better alone, than the group!
"Since when did it become acceptable to change the standard command experience from 5 years of heavy jet and 5000 hours, to 500 hours on any jet?
This isn't peculiar to Australia - the standards requirement for command in Japan is 3 years in the company (which can also include time spent in a subsidiary), and TOTAL time 3,000 hours. I can't say that I like it, but that's the way it's gone.
BTW, there was NEVER any requirement to have "5 years of heavy jet".
The Civil Aviation Authority in each country is the one responsible for setting the standards.
If you disagree with it, then write to them.
Alternatively, join the AFAP and voice your opinion to them.
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Paraidse Lost
Sorry - new to the forum so I dont know how to change a title...anyone else do it?
Having worked for a number of overseas airlines in Flight and Operations Management, some of whom were US Carriers, I can tell you that Ansett's Human Factors Program was one of the best around. You can disagree and I respect that - you may have been closer to it than I.
Kaptin - in my 20 years in this business I've met a lot of pilots like you. Whilst angry and bitter on the outside, within they were all extremely knowledgeable and simply required approaching in the right way, with respect. I don't want to get into a slanging match with anyone, and will leave if that happens simply because the value of talking amongst us all is lost. On average it takes around 5 years for a new commercial pilot to go from starry eyed to bitter....particularly nowadays. The days when crews were treated with appropriate respect are over, and where they do remain they are limited and the exception not the rule. Each of those pilots maintains the love of what he does, and the bitterness comes from the fact that his true value to an organisation is not in his skill as a pilot, as it is in the value of his salary to the company's costs.
Remember most people that run an airline are not pilots, and on the whole are more commercial than operational. I have worked overseas for some beautiful carriers - that doesnt mean they were successful!! There's irony!
The Union never sets the quality of the airlines integrity.
Pilot Salaries and Conditions have a consequential impact on performance, but not directly.
Chief Pilots ARE senior management. Any Senior Manager that simply implements the strategies of his counterparts, no matter how contradictory they may be to their own beliefs and standards (such as low salaries, poor conditions, etc), is selling himself out as well as those he claims to represent.
The saddest consequence of good managers being promoted to Senior Management is when they suddenly see the role as an opportunity to glorify themselves. The responsibility of achieving a role where you are trusted to manage others is an achievement to be celebrated when it first happens. The higher you go, the greater your responsibility to others - not yourself. Lesson never learned.
Having worked for a number of overseas airlines in Flight and Operations Management, some of whom were US Carriers, I can tell you that Ansett's Human Factors Program was one of the best around. You can disagree and I respect that - you may have been closer to it than I.
Kaptin - in my 20 years in this business I've met a lot of pilots like you. Whilst angry and bitter on the outside, within they were all extremely knowledgeable and simply required approaching in the right way, with respect. I don't want to get into a slanging match with anyone, and will leave if that happens simply because the value of talking amongst us all is lost. On average it takes around 5 years for a new commercial pilot to go from starry eyed to bitter....particularly nowadays. The days when crews were treated with appropriate respect are over, and where they do remain they are limited and the exception not the rule. Each of those pilots maintains the love of what he does, and the bitterness comes from the fact that his true value to an organisation is not in his skill as a pilot, as it is in the value of his salary to the company's costs.
Remember most people that run an airline are not pilots, and on the whole are more commercial than operational. I have worked overseas for some beautiful carriers - that doesnt mean they were successful!! There's irony!
The Union never sets the quality of the airlines integrity.
Pilot Salaries and Conditions have a consequential impact on performance, but not directly.
Chief Pilots ARE senior management. Any Senior Manager that simply implements the strategies of his counterparts, no matter how contradictory they may be to their own beliefs and standards (such as low salaries, poor conditions, etc), is selling himself out as well as those he claims to represent.
The saddest consequence of good managers being promoted to Senior Management is when they suddenly see the role as an opportunity to glorify themselves. The responsibility of achieving a role where you are trusted to manage others is an achievement to be celebrated when it first happens. The higher you go, the greater your responsibility to others - not yourself. Lesson never learned.
Kaptin M-
Thanks to the Dispute, and the pilots who subsequently joined the 4 now non-existent domestic airlines, everything that had been established over some 40 years was DESTROYED. That is the reason why current conditions are as they are! Because a selfish relative few thought they THEY could do better alone, than the group!
One of the great difficulties with discussion on 89 issues is perspective. You -get frustrated by individuals quoting matters they believe to be fact when you are certain that they are untruthful.Remember the old adage "the first casualty in war is the truth". It's almost 14 years and I am sure many of us have a recall which is not entirely-100% correct?
There is no simple answer to anything about 89 -however- the continued wrangling between ourselves is causing great damage to the Industry -as a whole.
All involved in 89 are responsible in one way or another for the distrust and vitriol that exists today-we were the custodians of the Industry and we "blew it" for the young OZ aviators of today and tomorrow.
Is it possible for everyone to stand back(not forgive or forget)and try and work in the interests of the Industry itself?
As an aside- I was told yesterday that the VB CP was on $500K per annum with a bonus- when it floats of $12 M (OZ).
Interesting thing about perspective-if that information is true -it puts a very different perspective to the one that he recieves a lot less than that?
Thanks to the Dispute, and the pilots who subsequently joined the 4 now non-existent domestic airlines, everything that had been established over some 40 years was DESTROYED. That is the reason why current conditions are as they are! Because a selfish relative few thought they THEY could do better alone, than the group!
One of the great difficulties with discussion on 89 issues is perspective. You -get frustrated by individuals quoting matters they believe to be fact when you are certain that they are untruthful.Remember the old adage "the first casualty in war is the truth". It's almost 14 years and I am sure many of us have a recall which is not entirely-100% correct?
There is no simple answer to anything about 89 -however- the continued wrangling between ourselves is causing great damage to the Industry -as a whole.
All involved in 89 are responsible in one way or another for the distrust and vitriol that exists today-we were the custodians of the Industry and we "blew it" for the young OZ aviators of today and tomorrow.
Is it possible for everyone to stand back(not forgive or forget)and try and work in the interests of the Industry itself?
As an aside- I was told yesterday that the VB CP was on $500K per annum with a bonus- when it floats of $12 M (OZ).
Interesting thing about perspective-if that information is true -it puts a very different perspective to the one that he recieves a lot less than that?
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Patriot One........with big head up ass....my gawd!!!!!
and what may I ask, is not good? Cheap fares on national network utilizing new airplanes....
...nother Aussie wet dream....
...like how to install a flight engineer post on a 767.........
....like be good closet rascists and incacerate children......
friggin bone please!!!! Commander Winstun out..
You believe VB is good for the country, good for the public.
and what may I ask, is not good? Cheap fares on national network utilizing new airplanes....
AN & QF (and TAA before them) were some of the best airlines in the world, and held that quality a lot longer than many can say
Boeing used to ask Ansett Engineering how to do certain modifications
...like how to install a flight engineer post on a 767.........
Aussies usually do things for better reasons than most - ethicaly, morally, integrity
....like be good closet rascists and incacerate children......
Since when did it become acceptable to change the standard command experience from 5 years of heavy jet and 5000 hours, to 500 hours on any jet?
Commander Winstun out..
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Patriot: What a terrific post. I wish I could take all the VB pilots who never got into AN or QF and give them a year there. Then they would see what it's like to work for a real airline with real standards and a great depth of both professionalism and experience. As for the HF course that is a matter of record. I don't think VB would know what an HF course was? Sadly VB are lacking in both and heading further in the wrong direction. I am amazed at the support shown for a guy who 14 years ago helped destroy so many lives along with all the other businesses that failed as a result of 89 then comes back and sells out another generation of great young Aussie airline pilots! What a disgrace. Do they ever mention the decimation they put the tourism industry through and the innocent people who lost their businesses, houses, marriages etc because of their dispute? No they don't. All we get here is constant justification and re iterating of an ancient event and excuse from KM and his ilk who are too scared to even contemplate the truth. I do not mean to attack KM and his colleages as I'm sure you are all thorough professionals and gentlemen in your own right. But when something is continually re inforced like the 89 disput by those on here who see themselves as somehow more righteous than the rest it becomes clear that they are in fact full of self doubt. I think they were stitched up and no doubt about it but the AN destruction makes the 89 barney pale into insignificance when we compare the social, personal, economic, political and personal effect of the An a demise to the 89 pilots dispute. Before I get smashed by the 89 guys let me say that I think what happened to you guys was disgusting but what has happened sinse with the An raping and the VB work for the dole is equally as bad. Ok I'll put the mouth guard and you can all go for it.
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And I remember the beautiful 707 and the DC-9. Oh what an airline pilot's aeroplane!
And then these blasted electronics and fly-by-wire things came in and took the fun out of the job, as well as the job out of the flight engineer.
Then business managers started to wake to the fact that flying wasn't so much of a skill as it had been considered to that stage, but rather an accumulation of knowledge that could be added to in the safety of simulators and classrooms and what-not. They quickly twigged to the fact that a motivated kid with quality time in a sim could fly these big electronic devices just as well as, if not better than, the gnarled old timer with the permanent smell of engine oil and the view of a job for life and a yellow brick road to retirement.
And to add to the humiliation, someone in the gum-mint decided to take the protection away that allowed spending on anything because it didn't matter as both airlines would still be there tomorrow.
Warm blooded VB came along, and in order to be competitive, entered the market with a good gimmick, drastically reduced airfares and spanking new aircraft.
And the new, beer-drinking Joe Customer voiced his opinion with his chequebook! It took a little longer for the chardonnay set to follow, but the lure of the low prices was/is irresistable.
Gotta go with Winstun on this one Patriot One. Memories are nice, but if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
And then these blasted electronics and fly-by-wire things came in and took the fun out of the job, as well as the job out of the flight engineer.
Then business managers started to wake to the fact that flying wasn't so much of a skill as it had been considered to that stage, but rather an accumulation of knowledge that could be added to in the safety of simulators and classrooms and what-not. They quickly twigged to the fact that a motivated kid with quality time in a sim could fly these big electronic devices just as well as, if not better than, the gnarled old timer with the permanent smell of engine oil and the view of a job for life and a yellow brick road to retirement.
And to add to the humiliation, someone in the gum-mint decided to take the protection away that allowed spending on anything because it didn't matter as both airlines would still be there tomorrow.
Warm blooded VB came along, and in order to be competitive, entered the market with a good gimmick, drastically reduced airfares and spanking new aircraft.
And the new, beer-drinking Joe Customer voiced his opinion with his chequebook! It took a little longer for the chardonnay set to follow, but the lure of the low prices was/is irresistable.
Gotta go with Winstun on this one Patriot One. Memories are nice, but if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Isn`t it funny how those who aren`t/don`t qualify for our positions are those who are always telling everyone how easy the job is. See above posts!
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Whooops! Hit a nerve there. I'm not saying it's easy Kaptin M. Far from it. The job is tough and demanding, but it has changed significantly in the last 20 years. Seat of the pants flying is a thing of the past in the airlines and pilot duties have changed considerably.
World economics have changed and until they change back again, then that is what you have to deal with. It doesn't serve much purpose to point fingers and whinge about it.
The customer is king and votes with his or her pocketbook. If you don't like the way the industry is going then try and get the customer to part with his/her money in your direction. But don't try and get airline protection through government legislation slapped back on again in the process. That's a thing of the past.
World economics have changed and until they change back again, then that is what you have to deal with. It doesn't serve much purpose to point fingers and whinge about it.
The customer is king and votes with his or her pocketbook. If you don't like the way the industry is going then try and get the customer to part with his/her money in your direction. But don't try and get airline protection through government legislation slapped back on again in the process. That's a thing of the past.
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Ah yes, Lodown, what a wonderful success story deregulation has been.
Australia used to have two very good airlines, with worlds-best standards and secure employment. The US probably had four or five majors. Now, thanks to progressive government policies, Australia has one major and one low-cost operator. All of the old majors in the US have either disappeared or are in serious financial trouble.
So who are the winners? The public, I guess. They can now get a cheaper seat and those who probably used to go by bus, now fly. If memory serves, I think the bus companies are pretty stuffed now too!
So now, thanks to deregulation, we have an airline industry where he who goes broke last wins! The travelling public get cheaper and cheaper seats and expect to be bribed with more and more to get them to open their pocketbooks.
And who pays for these bribes. Well, fuel prices are pretty much out of the airlines control. The public expects more entertainment, meals, lounges, newer planes, gimmicks - gee we have to give them that. Aaaaah, wages - we can cut wages and maintain or increase our profits that way!! And keep our performance bonuses as well.
Soon, we will be competing with Emirates (a state-run airline with bottomless pockets) and God-knows who else the Government is prepared to let fly in Australia. Why? So the good old travelling public gets cheaper seats. Gotta be good for the country right?
Yes, lodown, the economic tide has changed. Doesn't mean that we all have to like it and don't know how long it will stay this way!! Maybe until Qantas is gone, thousands of people lose their jobs and we all fly Air Botswana for $10 SY-BN. But hey, the public get cheaper seats it must be good for the country right?
Australia used to have two very good airlines, with worlds-best standards and secure employment. The US probably had four or five majors. Now, thanks to progressive government policies, Australia has one major and one low-cost operator. All of the old majors in the US have either disappeared or are in serious financial trouble.
So who are the winners? The public, I guess. They can now get a cheaper seat and those who probably used to go by bus, now fly. If memory serves, I think the bus companies are pretty stuffed now too!
So now, thanks to deregulation, we have an airline industry where he who goes broke last wins! The travelling public get cheaper and cheaper seats and expect to be bribed with more and more to get them to open their pocketbooks.
And who pays for these bribes. Well, fuel prices are pretty much out of the airlines control. The public expects more entertainment, meals, lounges, newer planes, gimmicks - gee we have to give them that. Aaaaah, wages - we can cut wages and maintain or increase our profits that way!! And keep our performance bonuses as well.
Soon, we will be competing with Emirates (a state-run airline with bottomless pockets) and God-knows who else the Government is prepared to let fly in Australia. Why? So the good old travelling public gets cheaper seats. Gotta be good for the country right?
Yes, lodown, the economic tide has changed. Doesn't mean that we all have to like it and don't know how long it will stay this way!! Maybe until Qantas is gone, thousands of people lose their jobs and we all fly Air Botswana for $10 SY-BN. But hey, the public get cheaper seats it must be good for the country right?
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Patriot. One of the best posts I have seen on this website. You have perfectly summarised the current state of affairs in Australian Aviation.
Youv'e gotta wonder though. What happens when Australia finally loses a big aircraft? Will the travelling public wake up? Will the bean counters wake up? After all, they fly on our aircraft too...
Was a witness to a VB aircraft that carried out a visual arrival at YPAD last night, in very suspect conditions. I've no idea how they did it legally, I was in a following aircraft conducting an instrument arrival, and the conditions were somewhat (a lot!)less than that required for a visual approach.
I wonder if the passengers (although feral) on the VB aircraft would travel with them again if they understood the peril that their crew had placed them. I'm not suggesting for an instant that QF is perfect, far from it, but we would be crucified if we carried out an approach like the VB one I witnessed.
But, as Three Bars succinctly points out, cheaper must be better, right?
Youv'e gotta wonder though. What happens when Australia finally loses a big aircraft? Will the travelling public wake up? Will the bean counters wake up? After all, they fly on our aircraft too...
Was a witness to a VB aircraft that carried out a visual arrival at YPAD last night, in very suspect conditions. I've no idea how they did it legally, I was in a following aircraft conducting an instrument arrival, and the conditions were somewhat (a lot!)less than that required for a visual approach.
I wonder if the passengers (although feral) on the VB aircraft would travel with them again if they understood the peril that their crew had placed them. I'm not suggesting for an instant that QF is perfect, far from it, but we would be crucified if we carried out an approach like the VB one I witnessed.
But, as Three Bars succinctly points out, cheaper must be better, right?
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Paraidse Lost
The simple fact is that the arrival of VB was the “Pilot Strike of ‘00”, absolutely mirroring the issues behind the ’89 strike. If VB had arrived on our shores in ’89 would all of the pilots have resigned on mass? The reality is that what AN and TN tried to do in ’89 was exactly what VB accomplished in ’00 and yet many pilots meekly accepted the new order of Australian aviation this time around. Low salaries and conditions were accepted without challenge – all for the chance of a pilot job. I don’t see the bitter ‘89ers complaining about the VB pilots who joined in ’00, and yet their reason for joining was the same as those who crossed the line and returned to work in ’89. If you want to claim a moral high ground guys, then you should be consistent; under your theory the first crews inducted into the VB ranks in ’00 were also sc*bs.
However, what didn’t happen in ’89 and did in ’00 was the erosion of flight and engineering standards. If any of you don’t believe that Australia is now a less safe place to fly because of VB then you are absolutely kidding yourselves. VB pilot ranks are made up of inexperienced crews with enthusiasm and technical expertise who know enough to get them into trouble, and very experienced crews who right now would feel distinctly uncomfortable that the subtle and inherent risks have increased in what they understand is a dangerous business. All I can say is thank god for the experienced guys amongst them, and that for the most part Australia is a fair-weather environment. More than anything I hope that the inexperienced guys know their limitations.
The price of bringing VB to our shore is understanding that the base line of standards, safety and integrity has now changed forever. Every current airline in Australia will use the new low base-line set by VB as the measure for their own operation (read QF). And when the 3rd airline comes along, as it most assuredly will, they too will work from the new, bottom of the pile, VB baseline. What you saw as an overt attack in ’89, has actually been affected, much more insidiously in ’00 – and you didn’t even see it coming.
The kitchen isn’t too hot for me – I have seen all this before overseas, particularly in the U.S., and with much bigger players. The bitterness and anger that you often show amongst each other on these threads is a sign of the distortion created by the changing scene of everything you ever held true as professional pilots. Were you more honest and alert to your ever changing, ever diminishing environment then you as a group would openly admit the consequences of VB in your world. Once you see that it is the commercial world that will always seek to flatten the complexity of the operational world (because complexity means cost) then you may unite to set a standard. Operating standards aren’t set by unions; and Regulators will only ever set minimum standards. You as Pilots know the level of standards required here in Australia. If only you could all talk.
Those that snipe at Ansett and QANTAS and mock things that they did - you obviously never worked anywhere else. These 2 carriers contributed as much to world aviation standards as Pan –Am and TWA. I 100% agree that in the ‘00’s they are/were inefficient, bureaucratic, bumbling, process-laden giants that really needed a good clean out to be fit for the ‘00’s. Trouble is the management wasn’t/isn’t experienced enough, and the Unions not open minded enough.
The state of the industry in Australia today was inevitable – it’s written in the history of European and US aviation. Every time you arrogantly laugh that AN had a flight engineers panel, or that AN’s HF course was b/s – well, by identifying isolated issues you deny the huge achievements that some of you made to create such a professional aviation environment for so long. You seem to forget that your actions in the latter years have actually done more to undermine your industry than anything ever before – including ’89.
Go back 5 years – ask AN and QF what they would say about their Pilots – they’d say - “the best in the world”.
Ask Branson what he thinks about Pilots – he’ll say only one thing – “expensive”.
Ask Dixon what he thinks about Pilots – he’ll say – “I need to get them down to VB’s level”.
However, what didn’t happen in ’89 and did in ’00 was the erosion of flight and engineering standards. If any of you don’t believe that Australia is now a less safe place to fly because of VB then you are absolutely kidding yourselves. VB pilot ranks are made up of inexperienced crews with enthusiasm and technical expertise who know enough to get them into trouble, and very experienced crews who right now would feel distinctly uncomfortable that the subtle and inherent risks have increased in what they understand is a dangerous business. All I can say is thank god for the experienced guys amongst them, and that for the most part Australia is a fair-weather environment. More than anything I hope that the inexperienced guys know their limitations.
The price of bringing VB to our shore is understanding that the base line of standards, safety and integrity has now changed forever. Every current airline in Australia will use the new low base-line set by VB as the measure for their own operation (read QF). And when the 3rd airline comes along, as it most assuredly will, they too will work from the new, bottom of the pile, VB baseline. What you saw as an overt attack in ’89, has actually been affected, much more insidiously in ’00 – and you didn’t even see it coming.
The kitchen isn’t too hot for me – I have seen all this before overseas, particularly in the U.S., and with much bigger players. The bitterness and anger that you often show amongst each other on these threads is a sign of the distortion created by the changing scene of everything you ever held true as professional pilots. Were you more honest and alert to your ever changing, ever diminishing environment then you as a group would openly admit the consequences of VB in your world. Once you see that it is the commercial world that will always seek to flatten the complexity of the operational world (because complexity means cost) then you may unite to set a standard. Operating standards aren’t set by unions; and Regulators will only ever set minimum standards. You as Pilots know the level of standards required here in Australia. If only you could all talk.
Those that snipe at Ansett and QANTAS and mock things that they did - you obviously never worked anywhere else. These 2 carriers contributed as much to world aviation standards as Pan –Am and TWA. I 100% agree that in the ‘00’s they are/were inefficient, bureaucratic, bumbling, process-laden giants that really needed a good clean out to be fit for the ‘00’s. Trouble is the management wasn’t/isn’t experienced enough, and the Unions not open minded enough.
The state of the industry in Australia today was inevitable – it’s written in the history of European and US aviation. Every time you arrogantly laugh that AN had a flight engineers panel, or that AN’s HF course was b/s – well, by identifying isolated issues you deny the huge achievements that some of you made to create such a professional aviation environment for so long. You seem to forget that your actions in the latter years have actually done more to undermine your industry than anything ever before – including ’89.
Go back 5 years – ask AN and QF what they would say about their Pilots – they’d say - “the best in the world”.
Ask Branson what he thinks about Pilots – he’ll say only one thing – “expensive”.
Ask Dixon what he thinks about Pilots – he’ll say – “I need to get them down to VB’s level”.
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One wonders who you bitches would be bitching about if VB hadn't sprung up.
Been said before - pilots are their own worst enemy - especially the ones livin large, looking down on the unwashed masses of those who are too 'psychotic' to fit the QF 'profile', and expecting the ones that have been 'rejected' by theQF high priests of the cockpit to stay in GA or quit flying altogether, rather than take a job flying jets for 'reasonable' pay and conditions - and remember, reasonable pay is a subjective and a comparable thing.
I ask, what have you guys done to promote equality in pilot job positions, pay and conditions in Australia, except line your own pockets and sneer at the rest of us who choose to fly for other airlines at a pay we consider acceptable?
Stop slagging off VB drivers, conditions and the company you insecure w@nkers - most of us like where we are, what we do and how we do it; and despite what you clowns may think, we do it well. Less dead weight in our ranks than some other majors around these parts!
PS Winstun - right on!
Been said before - pilots are their own worst enemy - especially the ones livin large, looking down on the unwashed masses of those who are too 'psychotic' to fit the QF 'profile', and expecting the ones that have been 'rejected' by theQF high priests of the cockpit to stay in GA or quit flying altogether, rather than take a job flying jets for 'reasonable' pay and conditions - and remember, reasonable pay is a subjective and a comparable thing.
I ask, what have you guys done to promote equality in pilot job positions, pay and conditions in Australia, except line your own pockets and sneer at the rest of us who choose to fly for other airlines at a pay we consider acceptable?
Stop slagging off VB drivers, conditions and the company you insecure w@nkers - most of us like where we are, what we do and how we do it; and despite what you clowns may think, we do it well. Less dead weight in our ranks than some other majors around these parts!
PS Winstun - right on!