Paraidse Lost
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I know , experience come from how many times you have had to resolve problems etc with a/c.
A bloke with 8 years experience would probably have had more exposure to problems than a bloke with only 2 years experience.
A bloke with 8 years experience would probably have had more exposure to problems than a bloke with only 2 years experience.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: AUS
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Repro
Spot on, my sentiments exactly. The proposition is mendacious nonsense. Would Lodown have us believe that should he or a member of his family find themselves in need of good legal representation he would engage a 22 year old with a fresh certificate in favour of an old hand.
What experience brings in any endeavour is an enhanced ability to see patterns developing, recognise a likely or alternative outcome and position yourself to capitalise on this.
Brown noses and backstabbers are obviously adept at the above. I think on their side of the fence its called 'Life Skills', with the skills and techniques practised from an early age.
Spot on, my sentiments exactly. The proposition is mendacious nonsense. Would Lodown have us believe that should he or a member of his family find themselves in need of good legal representation he would engage a 22 year old with a fresh certificate in favour of an old hand.
What experience brings in any endeavour is an enhanced ability to see patterns developing, recognise a likely or alternative outcome and position yourself to capitalise on this.
Brown noses and backstabbers are obviously adept at the above. I think on their side of the fence its called 'Life Skills', with the skills and techniques practised from an early age.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wybacrik
Posts: 1,190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been in this business for 44yrs and probably still learning, but in response to Lodowns questions the following are my answers...
1. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
2. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
3. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
...and finally question 4.
The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
And the above would apply to a Butcher,a Baker,a Candlestick maker,a Travel Agent,a Sim Technician and an Air Traffic Controller
Are we getting the message here Lodown?
1. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
2. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
3. The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
...and finally question 4.
The pilot with 8yrs experience has 6yrs more experience than the pilot with 2yrs experience!
And the above would apply to a Butcher,a Baker,a Candlestick maker,a Travel Agent,a Sim Technician and an Air Traffic Controller
Are we getting the message here Lodown?
Last edited by amos2; 30th Jul 2003 at 18:31.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lodown - I have to say that it is an extraordinarily brave claim that you make that experience has no value, and that technical skills are the key. You operate in what is undoubtedly one of the most commercially dangerous and unpredictable environments on earth - to assume that the only criteria needed is the technical skill to operate your aircraft is fantasy. Australia may be a predominantly fair-weather environment, but is also has extremes of weather that occur randomly - experience, and many years of it, is the only way to truly achieve maximum situational awareness. The same applies to your aircraft - they may be very modern, and idiot-proof, but they are machines and they have a tendency to "say what they don't mean", and behave in a manner not specified in the operating manual. Just ask any Lame that has scratched his head over a problem that he just can't fix logically.
Combine weather, aircraft and inexperience and at the very, very least you end up with a very poor level of operational control, which may not necessarily create a safety incident, but it certainly compromises commercial integrity.
So, in summary, experience is an important prerequisite when it comes to safety and efficiency of operations. As most experienced pilots have been at it for years they tend not to accept low-paid jobs in airlines. Therefore, VB sets its criteria at low levels because it needs a pilot workforce. It trades off salary for experience and cares even less. This is what VB has brought to your side of the industry. It's advantage in this area is that there are precious few cockpit seats available today, and so experienced pilots have to grab at opportunities even if it means accepting lower salaries. This is not a strategy of VB, this is a consequence of the collapsing industry.
The point is that if the survival of your business hangs so tentatively on an unpredictable and dangerous operating environment, then you had better make damn sure that you don't dumb down the airline, and instead get the best of the best. What you spend iin the detail, you save in the delivery.
Lesson never ever learned.
Combine weather, aircraft and inexperience and at the very, very least you end up with a very poor level of operational control, which may not necessarily create a safety incident, but it certainly compromises commercial integrity.
So, in summary, experience is an important prerequisite when it comes to safety and efficiency of operations. As most experienced pilots have been at it for years they tend not to accept low-paid jobs in airlines. Therefore, VB sets its criteria at low levels because it needs a pilot workforce. It trades off salary for experience and cares even less. This is what VB has brought to your side of the industry. It's advantage in this area is that there are precious few cockpit seats available today, and so experienced pilots have to grab at opportunities even if it means accepting lower salaries. This is not a strategy of VB, this is a consequence of the collapsing industry.
The point is that if the survival of your business hangs so tentatively on an unpredictable and dangerous operating environment, then you had better make damn sure that you don't dumb down the airline, and instead get the best of the best. What you spend iin the detail, you save in the delivery.
Lesson never ever learned.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Lodown, I get the impression - rightly or wrongly - that you are either TOTALLY ignorant of aviation, or, that you are trying to muck us around by having us waste our time posting long-winded replies to your questions.
Quite frankly, I can't be bothered!
I agree with some of P1's sentiments, however as he is aiming them directly at VB, I must disagree that they are solely a VB problem, or that thay are anywhere near the scale that he implies.
Virgin Blue has - and continues to - employ many, many highly experienced pilots with a vast depth of airline experience. It is these pilots that form the C&T backbone of VB.
Just as in EVERY other airline, there are lesser (and possibly more) experienced pilots making up the remainder.
However ALL of these VB pilots - to date - have been selected by a panel of pilots, ALL of whom are well respected not only within Australian aviation circles, but many also overseas, where they successfully operated in checking/training positions.
As I stated in an earlier post, I believe that the DEPTH of airline experience in VB is far deeper than it was in the "new Ansett", post 1989, not least because those employed in the C&T side of VB have a genuine known history.
Lodown, as previous posters have responded quite succinctly to you, allow me to ask you what you believe would be the difference between two exponents of karate (karatekas) - one with 2 years experience and holder of a 1st degree (shodan) black belt, and another with 8 years and holder of say 5th dan?
As spotlight says, "What experience brings in any endeavour is an enhanced ability to see patterns developing, recognise a likely or alternative outcome and position yourself to capitalise on this.".
The OBVIOUS, subtle differences are more than likely not readily obvious to the uninitiated, and at the outset the two might even appear equal, but over a period of time the experience is going to show through, perhaps slowly at first, but then in ever increasing leaps and then bounds.
And VB are paying EXTRA for that experience, as their C&T pilots receive remuneration at a higher level than line pilots.
Furthermore, VB knows full well that pilots will trade off salary for lifestyle.
We have had a couple of pilots resign their job here, to return to Australia (with VB) for around 1/2 the salary they were on. There is also a Canadian guy here - who having discovered Oz - would love to do the same!
I don't disagree that the pay scales aren't up there with QF, however, given time, I believe that the 2 will eventually be much closer!
Lodown, the occupations you cite..."There are many other professions also responsible for similar numbers of people's lives - driving a petrol tanker, designing and engineering a bridge or high rise, power station operators, working in an oil refinery or chemical plant, ensuring cleanliness in the manufacture of peanut butter, air traffic control, pharmaceutical company employees, and lots more."...ALL operate within a fairly static environment.
If a problem develops, stop/pause the machinery, call in outside help, and if necessary get the fcuk OUT and save your own neck!
The petrol tanker can be stopped at the roadside; the bridge/high-rise engineer can go over his plans time and time and time again; the power station operator can shut the whole thing down, as can the employees in the oil refinery, chemical plant, peanut butter factory, etc; the ATC'er can tell all aircraft to "enter hold in present position"...(and let the pilot(s) worry about HOW long they have
).
Pilots don't have those same luxuries available to them.
Evaluation, decision-making, and re-evaluation are required in even the day-to-day line ops.
It is this process - one of many - that is honed with flying experience, allowing a pilot to reach the CORRECT (or more correct) decision more efficiently, than his lesser experienced compatriot.
Quite frankly, I can't be bothered!
I agree with some of P1's sentiments, however as he is aiming them directly at VB, I must disagree that they are solely a VB problem, or that thay are anywhere near the scale that he implies.
Virgin Blue has - and continues to - employ many, many highly experienced pilots with a vast depth of airline experience. It is these pilots that form the C&T backbone of VB.
Just as in EVERY other airline, there are lesser (and possibly more) experienced pilots making up the remainder.
However ALL of these VB pilots - to date - have been selected by a panel of pilots, ALL of whom are well respected not only within Australian aviation circles, but many also overseas, where they successfully operated in checking/training positions.
As I stated in an earlier post, I believe that the DEPTH of airline experience in VB is far deeper than it was in the "new Ansett", post 1989, not least because those employed in the C&T side of VB have a genuine known history.
Lodown, as previous posters have responded quite succinctly to you, allow me to ask you what you believe would be the difference between two exponents of karate (karatekas) - one with 2 years experience and holder of a 1st degree (shodan) black belt, and another with 8 years and holder of say 5th dan?
As spotlight says, "What experience brings in any endeavour is an enhanced ability to see patterns developing, recognise a likely or alternative outcome and position yourself to capitalise on this.".
The OBVIOUS, subtle differences are more than likely not readily obvious to the uninitiated, and at the outset the two might even appear equal, but over a period of time the experience is going to show through, perhaps slowly at first, but then in ever increasing leaps and then bounds.
And VB are paying EXTRA for that experience, as their C&T pilots receive remuneration at a higher level than line pilots.
Furthermore, VB knows full well that pilots will trade off salary for lifestyle.
We have had a couple of pilots resign their job here, to return to Australia (with VB) for around 1/2 the salary they were on. There is also a Canadian guy here - who having discovered Oz - would love to do the same!
I don't disagree that the pay scales aren't up there with QF, however, given time, I believe that the 2 will eventually be much closer!
Lodown, the occupations you cite..."There are many other professions also responsible for similar numbers of people's lives - driving a petrol tanker, designing and engineering a bridge or high rise, power station operators, working in an oil refinery or chemical plant, ensuring cleanliness in the manufacture of peanut butter, air traffic control, pharmaceutical company employees, and lots more."...ALL operate within a fairly static environment.
If a problem develops, stop/pause the machinery, call in outside help, and if necessary get the fcuk OUT and save your own neck!
The petrol tanker can be stopped at the roadside; the bridge/high-rise engineer can go over his plans time and time and time again; the power station operator can shut the whole thing down, as can the employees in the oil refinery, chemical plant, peanut butter factory, etc; the ATC'er can tell all aircraft to "enter hold in present position"...(and let the pilot(s) worry about HOW long they have
).Pilots don't have those same luxuries available to them.
Evaluation, decision-making, and re-evaluation are required in even the day-to-day line ops.
It is this process - one of many - that is honed with flying experience, allowing a pilot to reach the CORRECT (or more correct) decision more efficiently, than his lesser experienced compatriot.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, I agree, it was a terrible series of questions about experience. I was thinking about something else that was somewhat related and that was the result - not a great deal of association with my initial thoughts. If I had a do-over, it would be completely different. My post related to skill and somehow I got myself in a tangle discussing experience out of context to my original intent. So, I appreciate the responses and apologise for the way the questions were worded.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HH...
Good name, especially for someone that clearly fly's for DJ! Like it.
No mate, no wind up. Sh1t conditions into AD that night, I was in a following aircraft (2 - 3 min behind - they were on our TCAS the whole time) and we were carrying out a 05 VOR appr. And we broke out well below that required for a visual arrival. An IAL was the only way you could legally land that night.
And yes, the VB aircraft got in somehow via the Black arrival with a vis transition. Perhaps AD should not have assigned it, but after all, who's responsible in the end. Yes, PIC.
Sorry, but this was a valid point. If those passengers understood what a situation they were placed in, well, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy!
Back to the topic!
Good name, especially for someone that clearly fly's for DJ! Like it.
No mate, no wind up. Sh1t conditions into AD that night, I was in a following aircraft (2 - 3 min behind - they were on our TCAS the whole time) and we were carrying out a 05 VOR appr. And we broke out well below that required for a visual arrival. An IAL was the only way you could legally land that night.
And yes, the VB aircraft got in somehow via the Black arrival with a vis transition. Perhaps AD should not have assigned it, but after all, who's responsible in the end. Yes, PIC.
Sorry, but this was a valid point. If those passengers understood what a situation they were placed in, well, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy!
Back to the topic!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You're assuming, balance, that the wx conditions that YOU experienced on your track, and at the time YOU made YOUR approach, were the same as those that the other aircraft encountered.
You know the old adage about ASS-U-ME.
Or perhaps they are were just more on the ball, and craftier than you guys.
As you gain more experience, balance, you'll realise that an aircraft even 5 miles ahead on the same approach as you, may encounter considerably changed conditions.
Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
You know the old adage about ASS-U-ME.
Or perhaps they are were just more on the ball, and craftier than you guys.
As you gain more experience, balance, you'll realise that an aircraft even 5 miles ahead on the same approach as you, may encounter considerably changed conditions.
Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A very condescending post Kaptin. YOU make certain assumptions about ME, which are not yours to make. You know nothing of me, my background, age or experience. ASS-U-ME. Perhaps you should take a leaf from your own book.
I know what I know, and I saw what I saw. If you wish to down play it by telling me that I am inexperienced (I must be!), then fill your boots.
Benefit of the doubt is wonderful until someone comes unstuck. And then what? Those who gave that benefit dive for cover. We have regulations which are in place to keep people safe. Bust them, and that level of safety is reduced, or removed. And that, without any shadow of a doubt that is what I witnessed.
And craftier? Jesus, if that was "crafty", I'd hate to see straight out dangerous! Where in hell do you define a boundary between "crafty" and purely illegal?
No assumptions on my part, Kaptin. How about yours?
I know what I know, and I saw what I saw. If you wish to down play it by telling me that I am inexperienced (I must be!), then fill your boots.
Benefit of the doubt is wonderful until someone comes unstuck. And then what? Those who gave that benefit dive for cover. We have regulations which are in place to keep people safe. Bust them, and that level of safety is reduced, or removed. And that, without any shadow of a doubt that is what I witnessed.
And craftier? Jesus, if that was "crafty", I'd hate to see straight out dangerous! Where in hell do you define a boundary between "crafty" and purely illegal?
No assumptions on my part, Kaptin. How about yours?
balance if i understand what your saying the boys have done something very silly and/or broken some rules. So with what your saw and heard, because i'm sure you would have been able to see exactly what they were looking at out their windows, they would have been 225 by the tower at least if not by YOU being the ACE of maintaining "We have regulations which are in place to keep people safe".
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Middle East
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can't judge what's out in front unless you are in that aircraft. Unfortunately this kind of unsubstantiated accusation causes more problems than its worth. I know what you are saying balance, but be careful that you are dead certain of your facts.
Also as balance said:
Back to the topic!
So far this has been possibly the most civil and interesting post on this forum. Lets keep it that way....
Also as balance said:
Back to the topic!
So far this has been possibly the most civil and interesting post on this forum. Lets keep it that way....
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"I know what I know, and I saw what I saw."
Precisely correct, balance - however you do NOT know what the crew of other aircraft ahead, or behind, you saw.
That is the reason why some aircraft are able to land off an approach, whilst another has to go around.
Grow up! Your accusations are against qualified pilots of another airline are unprofessional to say the least, and YOUR lack of understanding of the simple fact that weather conditions fluctuate, indicates lack of experience!
Precisely correct, balance - however you do NOT know what the crew of other aircraft ahead, or behind, you saw.
That is the reason why some aircraft are able to land off an approach, whilst another has to go around.
Grow up! Your accusations are against qualified pilots of another airline are unprofessional to say the least, and YOUR lack of understanding of the simple fact that weather conditions fluctuate, indicates lack of experience!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I should have known better. Don't critisize VB lest you get struck down. I wonder if this had been a red rat in front of me, would the response have been different.
Thanks for setting me straight, Kaptin. I now understand meteorology completely, given your arrogant teachings. By your judgement, one person is not allowed to tell another that they have done wrong, because it is "unprofessional". Utter tripe.
Weather is often subjective, but sometimes it is quite clear cut. In this circumstance, it was clear cut. And we are not talking about lnding off an ILS here. We have a B738 that somehow became visual off radar vectors with an overcast cloud base of 1000', and reduced vis in driving rain.
Visual approach? Sorry, but no way was this legally possible. And no, the wx did not suddenly crump in between our two aircraft.
Good grief. Now please, back to "Paradise lost".
Thanks for setting me straight, Kaptin. I now understand meteorology completely, given your arrogant teachings. By your judgement, one person is not allowed to tell another that they have done wrong, because it is "unprofessional". Utter tripe.
Weather is often subjective, but sometimes it is quite clear cut. In this circumstance, it was clear cut. And we are not talking about lnding off an ILS here. We have a B738 that somehow became visual off radar vectors with an overcast cloud base of 1000', and reduced vis in driving rain.
Visual approach? Sorry, but no way was this legally possible. And no, the wx did not suddenly crump in between our two aircraft.
Good grief. Now please, back to "Paradise lost".
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Balance, did you hear the DJ crew request a visual approach instead of a 05 VOR/DME?
Give us an approx time, and the date, and lets check the ATIS that was being broadcast around then.
Once again, has anyone (who actually flys) had AD Approach assign a Visual Approach onto 05 in Non-VMC conditions??
If anything, they are conservative, and issue the VOR/DME approach when any significant cloud/showers are around.
Give us an approx time, and the date, and lets check the ATIS that was being broadcast around then.
Once again, has anyone (who actually flys) had AD Approach assign a Visual Approach onto 05 in Non-VMC conditions??
If anything, they are conservative, and issue the VOR/DME approach when any significant cloud/showers are around.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last word.
I'm not going to give times and dates, because I'm not going to "dob the guys in". Not my place - and THAT would be unprofessional. We all know that CASA believe this forum to be legally binding!
I think however that the wx even caught AD Appr and Twr by surprise, but in the end the PIC is responsible.
The example I have given isn't meant to be specific, it has a wider cultural meaning, and I think it has been seized upon by a few, and blown out of proportion.
I'm not going to give times and dates, because I'm not going to "dob the guys in". Not my place - and THAT would be unprofessional. We all know that CASA believe this forum to be legally binding!
I think however that the wx even caught AD Appr and Twr by surprise, but in the end the PIC is responsible.
The example I have given isn't meant to be specific, it has a wider cultural meaning, and I think it has been seized upon by a few, and blown out of proportion.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Balance, thanks for being honest and effectively admitting 'you made it all up'.
So what's your real reason for trying to put dirt on the DJ crews?
Then we can go back to Paradise Lost.
So what's your real reason for trying to put dirt on the DJ crews?
Then we can go back to Paradise Lost.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I think however that the wx even caught AD Appr and Twr by surprise
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kaptin M
It would appear you are the one making assumptions.
Cant speak for balance of course, but following this thread, and others, the arrogance you display by assuming that people are inexperienced when they do not agree with your assumptions is the only thing that there could be any agreement over.
Prospector
It would appear you are the one making assumptions.
Cant speak for balance of course, but following this thread, and others, the arrogance you display by assuming that people are inexperienced when they do not agree with your assumptions is the only thing that there could be any agreement over.
Prospector