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I'm starting to wonder whether P1 is a previous stirrer by another name!
Have a look at the Mick Toller thread, where Woomera has already censored him!
And that's not to say that I always agree with Woomera's censoring! Actually, far from it!
Anyway, I think we need more info from P1 as to his previous life. Methinks we have a stirrer in our midst here!
Perhaps a company stooge?
Have a look at the Mick Toller thread, where Woomera has already censored him!
And that's not to say that I always agree with Woomera's censoring! Actually, far from it!
Anyway, I think we need more info from P1 as to his previous life. Methinks we have a stirrer in our midst here!
Perhaps a company stooge?
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..for what it's worth I've never been here before. Apologies over the Mick Toller comment - not apologies to Mick, but apologies if I broke the rules of PPRUNE...
..for what its worth I'm not a pilot either...company stooge - that's interesting - what exactly is one of those? The people you fear most - the bogey man - you think that they're out there, but its just your imagination. Plenty of idiots, plenty of really impotent and talentless people in the management ranks...I'd be the first to agree...
..I came to talk...not to deceive...dont guess, just ask or challenge what I say..its no mystery
..for what its worth I'm not a pilot either...company stooge - that's interesting - what exactly is one of those? The people you fear most - the bogey man - you think that they're out there, but its just your imagination. Plenty of idiots, plenty of really impotent and talentless people in the management ranks...I'd be the first to agree...
..I came to talk...not to deceive...dont guess, just ask or challenge what I say..its no mystery
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The base line was re-set in 1989, when the AFAP was effectively removed as the pilots` representative.
That the pilots` conditions as provided by Ansett were unrealistic was evidenced by that companies final collapse.
The unrealistic, high salaries, with overtime commencing at 55 hours, were offered to try to lure the previous AFAP pilots back.
Virgin Blue are smarter than that.
And the "low experience" level you allude to has not resulted in any increase in incidents/accidents to the best of my knowledge. If you have some proof to the contrary, P1, please provide the reference material.
The Chief Pilot is well known by those who worked under him and with him previously, and THAT is why he is trusted.
The blame for the lowering /loss of previous conditions can be placed squarely at the feet of those who rushed in to grab Individual Contracts during the Dispute - in which you say you were not involved, P1??
There is no shortage of applicants to VB, so WHY would they want to increase the package currently being offered?
After all, they (the airline) are still in their formative/growing stage!
Would like to spend more time on this, but I`m at work right now.
That the pilots` conditions as provided by Ansett were unrealistic was evidenced by that companies final collapse.
The unrealistic, high salaries, with overtime commencing at 55 hours, were offered to try to lure the previous AFAP pilots back.
Virgin Blue are smarter than that.
And the "low experience" level you allude to has not resulted in any increase in incidents/accidents to the best of my knowledge. If you have some proof to the contrary, P1, please provide the reference material.
The Chief Pilot is well known by those who worked under him and with him previously, and THAT is why he is trusted.
The blame for the lowering /loss of previous conditions can be placed squarely at the feet of those who rushed in to grab Individual Contracts during the Dispute - in which you say you were not involved, P1??
There is no shortage of applicants to VB, so WHY would they want to increase the package currently being offered?
After all, they (the airline) are still in their formative/growing stage!
Would like to spend more time on this, but I`m at work right now.
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Patriot One, Succinct, to the point , and above all accurate. well said. It brought a tear in the eye.
...presence of intellect? 
“the best in the world”.
Frankly, this repetitive Aussie pilot wet dream has not only become increasingly nauseating over several decades, but is downright embarassing to an international upmarket player like myself. Luckily I have several other passports at hand, and able to keep Oz one under wraps avoiding ridicule.
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I apologise to fellow Ppruners profusely for giving my support to Winstun and lending support to his argument.
Take a Prozac quick Winstun. Your ego's getting away on you.
Take a Prozac quick Winstun. Your ego's getting away on you.
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Nope – not a Pilot, which interestingly enough is irrelevant anyway. What is more relevant is the content of my posts, and not the context of my position.
I’m confused Amos – isn’t the whole point of PPRUNE to talk?
Kaptin – you’re a quandary to me. The person I believe you to be is an exceptionally experienced aviator, made bitter by the compromises and hits that the industry has forced on you. Underneath it all I believe you have so much more to say about the injustices brought upon pilots by this ugly industry instead of blaming a few individuals. But instead you lean so heavily on the union to recover what was lost. Can’t you see that the union can’t save you? And can’t you see that it wasn’t your ex-colleagues/fellow aviators that sold you out? It was this sh*t of an industry that puts pilots in such situations, and at the end of the day Kaptin every one is motivated by their personal circumstances. Sadly there will always be those who exploit situations for selfish reward, but on the whole they are the exception. You can’t brand all the guys that returned because most of them did it because they had to feed their kids, their wives, and because they were possibly afraid that the job they loved and wanted to do forever may possibly be nevermore. You probably believe that they should’ve held on together until the bitter end, but the reality is that once the walk-out had occurred the die was cast and there was no going back for the management and politicians. And on top of that was the fact the each pilot was faced with personal issues and what it would mean for their futures. I know when I kiss my kids each night and wake them up each morning that there really is nothing more important in life than them, and I know I’d die to keep them happy and healthy.
I 100% agree that there were those who cared nothing for their colleagues, their families, and even the integrity of their industry, and saw this as a fast-track to opportunity for them. Those people are truly the scum of the earth, but believe me, just read the newspaper – they are everywhere. They may have gained from their actions, but in so many other ways they lost. For most of us respect from our peers is the highest reward. They will have lost that – but the beast that they are would care not. It matters not. Life rewards the opportunist – sadly it doesn’t discriminate the loathsome opportunist.
For what it is worth I would encourage you to not brand the returnee’s as one, but to give at least some of them the benefit of the doubt. When I returned to Australia a few years ago, after many years away, I worked with many, many pilots. ’89 meant nothing to me – I wasn’t here and at the time cared less. In my time here so far I have met some amazing pilots – managers and line – and I met some real bad characters who continuously set about exploiting personal opportunity. Funny how ’89 was not a part of the criteria that made up of each of these guys.
This industry is so commercially ugly that it doesn’t deserve the extraordinarily amazing facet that is the actual flying side, with magnificent machines, incredible technology and a set of men and women that come to work and accomplish the amazing feat of flying every day. It’s your bosses that have sold you out, because they don’t truly value what this industry is about. They simply say “to earn that $100 we’re going to have to cut costs somewhere else”. They’re not pilots, engineers or operations people, they don’t even care, appreciate or understand the incredible accomplishment that flying is.
When you want someone to blame, look to the companies like Virgin Blue that see you as a necessary evil – and p*ss down your back and make you think its raining. They don’t say “pilots are incredible for what they do”, they say “look how much they cost”. Look at your union as well. It was the failure of your union and every other aviation union to see that the costs could simply not be maintained. A big part of Ansett’s death was the continuous hard-nosed fight by the unions to maintain salaries. A big part was the failure of management to bring the employees along with them to understand that costs need to be saved to survive. Take a look at the airlines in the US. For so many years pilot salaries have gone up while productivity has gone down – no thought of preparing for the future challenges that lay ahead. Then Sept 11th occurs, and so many other global disasters, and now union after union is capitulating.
The lesson is never negotiate when you have no choice – effective negotiation is a strategy for improvement when you have choices; it is not a tactical response to a crisis when you have none. It’s no wonder that pilots are queuing up to join VB – they have no choice.
I may sound hard on VB crews – but in truth I respect every one of them for having the courage to accept the worst of everything to keep doing something that they love. Honestly, you pilots don’t realise how lucky you are.
I’m confused Amos – isn’t the whole point of PPRUNE to talk?
Kaptin – you’re a quandary to me. The person I believe you to be is an exceptionally experienced aviator, made bitter by the compromises and hits that the industry has forced on you. Underneath it all I believe you have so much more to say about the injustices brought upon pilots by this ugly industry instead of blaming a few individuals. But instead you lean so heavily on the union to recover what was lost. Can’t you see that the union can’t save you? And can’t you see that it wasn’t your ex-colleagues/fellow aviators that sold you out? It was this sh*t of an industry that puts pilots in such situations, and at the end of the day Kaptin every one is motivated by their personal circumstances. Sadly there will always be those who exploit situations for selfish reward, but on the whole they are the exception. You can’t brand all the guys that returned because most of them did it because they had to feed their kids, their wives, and because they were possibly afraid that the job they loved and wanted to do forever may possibly be nevermore. You probably believe that they should’ve held on together until the bitter end, but the reality is that once the walk-out had occurred the die was cast and there was no going back for the management and politicians. And on top of that was the fact the each pilot was faced with personal issues and what it would mean for their futures. I know when I kiss my kids each night and wake them up each morning that there really is nothing more important in life than them, and I know I’d die to keep them happy and healthy.
I 100% agree that there were those who cared nothing for their colleagues, their families, and even the integrity of their industry, and saw this as a fast-track to opportunity for them. Those people are truly the scum of the earth, but believe me, just read the newspaper – they are everywhere. They may have gained from their actions, but in so many other ways they lost. For most of us respect from our peers is the highest reward. They will have lost that – but the beast that they are would care not. It matters not. Life rewards the opportunist – sadly it doesn’t discriminate the loathsome opportunist.
For what it is worth I would encourage you to not brand the returnee’s as one, but to give at least some of them the benefit of the doubt. When I returned to Australia a few years ago, after many years away, I worked with many, many pilots. ’89 meant nothing to me – I wasn’t here and at the time cared less. In my time here so far I have met some amazing pilots – managers and line – and I met some real bad characters who continuously set about exploiting personal opportunity. Funny how ’89 was not a part of the criteria that made up of each of these guys.
This industry is so commercially ugly that it doesn’t deserve the extraordinarily amazing facet that is the actual flying side, with magnificent machines, incredible technology and a set of men and women that come to work and accomplish the amazing feat of flying every day. It’s your bosses that have sold you out, because they don’t truly value what this industry is about. They simply say “to earn that $100 we’re going to have to cut costs somewhere else”. They’re not pilots, engineers or operations people, they don’t even care, appreciate or understand the incredible accomplishment that flying is.
When you want someone to blame, look to the companies like Virgin Blue that see you as a necessary evil – and p*ss down your back and make you think its raining. They don’t say “pilots are incredible for what they do”, they say “look how much they cost”. Look at your union as well. It was the failure of your union and every other aviation union to see that the costs could simply not be maintained. A big part of Ansett’s death was the continuous hard-nosed fight by the unions to maintain salaries. A big part was the failure of management to bring the employees along with them to understand that costs need to be saved to survive. Take a look at the airlines in the US. For so many years pilot salaries have gone up while productivity has gone down – no thought of preparing for the future challenges that lay ahead. Then Sept 11th occurs, and so many other global disasters, and now union after union is capitulating.
The lesson is never negotiate when you have no choice – effective negotiation is a strategy for improvement when you have choices; it is not a tactical response to a crisis when you have none. It’s no wonder that pilots are queuing up to join VB – they have no choice.
I may sound hard on VB crews – but in truth I respect every one of them for having the courage to accept the worst of everything to keep doing something that they love. Honestly, you pilots don’t realise how lucky you are.
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I love the theory espoused here and on like threads that equate pay scales with a level of safety. “If you only pay ‘x’ dollars (less than the perceived going rate) then therefore the person you have hired is by default less safe”.
Lowdown has spelt out the state of affairs rather succinctly in regard to the driving forces of ’89 and beyond as they relate to skill sets and related remuneration. Fairly predictably he was attacked for delivering “the message”.
Patriot has decided that because Virgin (and others) can do things more cheaply (including wages) and efficiently they must be unsafe and a threat to the “civilised” world.
Pilots (read flight attendants, baggage handlers etc) no longer have the “God given” right to ridiculous salaries and practices such as the antiquated seniority system. Undoubtedly most are skilled at their task, but this in itself does not automatically justify exorbitant wages. Just ask most of the scientists and medical researchers! The argument that “we have been paid large sums in the past therefore it must be justified/continued” is also one for the dinosaurs.
A substantial reason for the ’89 result and the inevitable Ansett demise was the continuous failure to recognise that the political and economic environment had moved on. Were the actions of Bob and his mates immoral? Most probably, were they illegal? Obviously not. The pilots and their union were outsmarted on an uneven political playing field with new rules. The signs were there for all to see! Failure to recognise that the game had been relocated to said field was nobody’s fault but the AFAP and the members.
Like their knowledge of financial investment, motor vehicles and marital relationships the “average” airline pilot’s knowledge of industrial relations and business economics emanates from discussions around the bar at the Georges River Rowers. Amazingly they even deride those of their own fraternity (as witnessed here on pprune) who endeavour to acquire additional qualifications (other than “I knows how to fly”) which may actually be of benefit to the collective. Consequently, they continually navel gaze in search of the enemy who “done them wrong” instead of contemplating their own failures, ill conceived tactics and lessons to be learnt!
Lowdown has spelt out the state of affairs rather succinctly in regard to the driving forces of ’89 and beyond as they relate to skill sets and related remuneration. Fairly predictably he was attacked for delivering “the message”.
Patriot has decided that because Virgin (and others) can do things more cheaply (including wages) and efficiently they must be unsafe and a threat to the “civilised” world.
Pilots (read flight attendants, baggage handlers etc) no longer have the “God given” right to ridiculous salaries and practices such as the antiquated seniority system. Undoubtedly most are skilled at their task, but this in itself does not automatically justify exorbitant wages. Just ask most of the scientists and medical researchers! The argument that “we have been paid large sums in the past therefore it must be justified/continued” is also one for the dinosaurs.
A substantial reason for the ’89 result and the inevitable Ansett demise was the continuous failure to recognise that the political and economic environment had moved on. Were the actions of Bob and his mates immoral? Most probably, were they illegal? Obviously not. The pilots and their union were outsmarted on an uneven political playing field with new rules. The signs were there for all to see! Failure to recognise that the game had been relocated to said field was nobody’s fault but the AFAP and the members.
Like their knowledge of financial investment, motor vehicles and marital relationships the “average” airline pilot’s knowledge of industrial relations and business economics emanates from discussions around the bar at the Georges River Rowers. Amazingly they even deride those of their own fraternity (as witnessed here on pprune) who endeavour to acquire additional qualifications (other than “I knows how to fly”) which may actually be of benefit to the collective. Consequently, they continually navel gaze in search of the enemy who “done them wrong” instead of contemplating their own failures, ill conceived tactics and lessons to be learnt!
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Hmmm.
I wonder why P1 sounds like Citizen XXXXXXX?
For claiming to not be a pilot, P1 seems to have considarable opinions on matters that concern pilots.
His/her rather perverse comments, like don't blame the returnees on the one hand, then criticises them on the other, defies logic.
If you need yet another lesson, so often expounded in this forum, P1, then you will get it.
But then, maybe that is the intent of the post.
So let's assume that is the case, and keep it brief.
The outcome of the '89 dispute can be attributed to the character weakness, and the blatant self-importance each and every scab imagined of him/herself.
Dollar signs in lieu of eyeballs were the clue.
The vision of seniority free promtotion if one brown-nosed the right golden scab formed a part of it as well.
As one prime scab, ******, is known to have claimed, the imaginary "I was taking my job back" cry, was the conscience soothing lie scabs like to use - still.
The scabs are alive, but not well, for the reasons you have stated P1.
The industry is in a mess, but not because you say it is high pilot costs, but because pilots have lost the professional plot.
Unless and until professional pilots meet on the road to Damascus, and realise that unity of the professional pilots in Australia (and worldwide) is the only way to protect the industry from professional and industrial annihilation, then the downward spiral will continue.
Unfortunately, the weakness of the AIPA will deny that revelation until its leaders realise the disastrous mistake GW made in the early '80s.
Meanwhile, P1, keep 'em coming.
I wonder why P1 sounds like Citizen XXXXXXX?
For claiming to not be a pilot, P1 seems to have considarable opinions on matters that concern pilots.
His/her rather perverse comments, like don't blame the returnees on the one hand, then criticises them on the other, defies logic.
If you need yet another lesson, so often expounded in this forum, P1, then you will get it.
But then, maybe that is the intent of the post.
So let's assume that is the case, and keep it brief.
The outcome of the '89 dispute can be attributed to the character weakness, and the blatant self-importance each and every scab imagined of him/herself.
Dollar signs in lieu of eyeballs were the clue.
The vision of seniority free promtotion if one brown-nosed the right golden scab formed a part of it as well.
As one prime scab, ******, is known to have claimed, the imaginary "I was taking my job back" cry, was the conscience soothing lie scabs like to use - still.
The scabs are alive, but not well, for the reasons you have stated P1.
The industry is in a mess, but not because you say it is high pilot costs, but because pilots have lost the professional plot.
Unless and until professional pilots meet on the road to Damascus, and realise that unity of the professional pilots in Australia (and worldwide) is the only way to protect the industry from professional and industrial annihilation, then the downward spiral will continue.
Unfortunately, the weakness of the AIPA will deny that revelation until its leaders realise the disastrous mistake GW made in the early '80s.
Meanwhile, P1, keep 'em coming.
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I don't recall saying that high pilot costs killed the industry - I said they killed the profession.
I didn't contradict myself over the '89ers either. I said not to treat them as one, as the motivation was different from man to man.
It's pretty obvious I can't win the '89 discussion and quite frankly maybe it's really none of my business. I'm not a pilot and don't desire to be one. I admire the profession, but hell - I couldnt stand everyone looking at me like I was a $50 note (sorry, couldnt resist). I also respect the fact that my rather late opinion on such an emotional issue is probably a little insensitive to all of those who had to go through it.
Whether you like it or not VB has re-written Australian aviation history, and you're not going to like the future. Look overseas for examples of where it is going. You know why Dixon allows VB to hang around? Because he's going to use the rules that VB wrote to turn QF upside down.
..oh and by the way Neddy - whilst my discussion to date has been about Pilots, it actually applies to all employees, and management....
It's simple maths;
Airline Infra-structure + Airline Costs + Low Fares = low profits.
Airline costs + Minimal Infrastructure + High Fares = high profits (and an unsafe commercial or operational business).
I didn't contradict myself over the '89ers either. I said not to treat them as one, as the motivation was different from man to man.
It's pretty obvious I can't win the '89 discussion and quite frankly maybe it's really none of my business. I'm not a pilot and don't desire to be one. I admire the profession, but hell - I couldnt stand everyone looking at me like I was a $50 note (sorry, couldnt resist). I also respect the fact that my rather late opinion on such an emotional issue is probably a little insensitive to all of those who had to go through it.
Whether you like it or not VB has re-written Australian aviation history, and you're not going to like the future. Look overseas for examples of where it is going. You know why Dixon allows VB to hang around? Because he's going to use the rules that VB wrote to turn QF upside down.
..oh and by the way Neddy - whilst my discussion to date has been about Pilots, it actually applies to all employees, and management....
It's simple maths;
Airline Infra-structure + Airline Costs + Low Fares = low profits.
Airline costs + Minimal Infrastructure + High Fares = high profits (and an unsafe commercial or operational business).
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Wasn't it NJS, then Flight West and Impulse who were the first to lower the pay rates for Jet pilots in OZ.
NJS started in the early 90's paying their BA146 pilots less than Ansett 146 pilots. When FWA started F28 operations they also paid their pilots less then what Ansett F28 pilots were paid. When Impulse started B717 operations their pilots were employed by a crewing company and were paid far less than any other jet pilot in OZ. (Please note I'm not knocking any of these companies or their pilots). B717 FO's were paid less than $60k and Capts less than $100k. F28 FO's at FWA were paid in the mid-50's and Capts less than 90k.
Over 90% of the FO's and around 40% of the Capts current flying the B717 came off the B1900 with most of the FO's having less than 2 years on the B1900 before moving onto the B717. The 40% of Capt's (on the B717) who came of the B1900 and have done so in less than 3 years and only a handful had any jet time (Beechjet). So what do you say about their experience level? Are they in the same class as the Virgin Blue pilots? Why haven't they (Impulse) bent an aircraft? Answer their training plus the experience level they have within their senior pilot ranks and C & T pilots. These pilots ensure that the line pilots are trained and checked to the standards set by CASA and the Airline (which is usually a higher standard) before they operate any line flight.
It's the same at Virgin Blue, around 80-90% of the FO's have come from the regionals, with many previously capts on these regional aircraft. They have flown Saabs, E120s, Dash 8s, B1900s CRJs, Metros etc. I would guess that only around 30% of the current B737 capts at Virgin Blue would have had no jet time when they joined the company. So like Impulse, Virgin have a large percentage of senior and C & T pilots within their ranks to ensure that Virgin Blue pilots meet the standards set by CASA and once again the airline.
Low pay does not equal a lower safety standard. In the 10 plus year NJS have been operating have they bent an aircraft? In the 5 years that FWA operated jets (F28/F100) did they bend an aircraft? The answer is no. The only operator to bend an a jet aircraft in the last few years has been Qantas.
NJS started in the early 90's paying their BA146 pilots less than Ansett 146 pilots. When FWA started F28 operations they also paid their pilots less then what Ansett F28 pilots were paid. When Impulse started B717 operations their pilots were employed by a crewing company and were paid far less than any other jet pilot in OZ. (Please note I'm not knocking any of these companies or their pilots). B717 FO's were paid less than $60k and Capts less than $100k. F28 FO's at FWA were paid in the mid-50's and Capts less than 90k.
Over 90% of the FO's and around 40% of the Capts current flying the B717 came off the B1900 with most of the FO's having less than 2 years on the B1900 before moving onto the B717. The 40% of Capt's (on the B717) who came of the B1900 and have done so in less than 3 years and only a handful had any jet time (Beechjet). So what do you say about their experience level? Are they in the same class as the Virgin Blue pilots? Why haven't they (Impulse) bent an aircraft? Answer their training plus the experience level they have within their senior pilot ranks and C & T pilots. These pilots ensure that the line pilots are trained and checked to the standards set by CASA and the Airline (which is usually a higher standard) before they operate any line flight.
It's the same at Virgin Blue, around 80-90% of the FO's have come from the regionals, with many previously capts on these regional aircraft. They have flown Saabs, E120s, Dash 8s, B1900s CRJs, Metros etc. I would guess that only around 30% of the current B737 capts at Virgin Blue would have had no jet time when they joined the company. So like Impulse, Virgin have a large percentage of senior and C & T pilots within their ranks to ensure that Virgin Blue pilots meet the standards set by CASA and once again the airline.
Low pay does not equal a lower safety standard. In the 10 plus year NJS have been operating have they bent an aircraft? In the 5 years that FWA operated jets (F28/F100) did they bend an aircraft? The answer is no. The only operator to bend an a jet aircraft in the last few years has been Qantas.
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companies like Virgin Blue that see you as a necessary evil – and p*ss down your back and make you think its raining. They don’t say “pilots are incredible for what they do”, they say “look how much they cost”.
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Hmm..seems I tried and failed to get my point across. Let me summarise..
I never espoused higher salaries for pilots - my point was to discuss the low and lowering morale of Australian pilots. First they challenge your salary, then they take away the level of standards. Reading the threads of PPRUNE you've got to be the most bitter and angry bunch of pilots I've ever seen. The constant theme of most threads appears to be a constant bitch about the job and who amongst you is to blame. I was trying to point out that it isn't you, it's the industry.
I was also trying to point out the consequence of your actions and your Unions actions over salaries and conditions actually created the environment for your worst nightmare - the low cost carrier. Rather than see that for what it is you welcome them as almost refreshing for your industry.
They've given you nothing, and taught you only to be grateful that someone created some pilot jobs.
I never said that lower salaries mean unsafe. What I said was the average VB cockpit is now very inexperienced - isn't that a safety issue? How are your rosters? Productive? Your schedule is a mess because your staff and management don't know any better. How's your training? Still using the AN 737-300 Sim? Yup. What's the ratio of NG's to 300's? - 30-1 isn't it? ("Hmm..looks like a 73..smells like a 73..must be a 73..arent they all the same?"). How's the line maintenance? All over the place - that's a fact. How are the F/A PA's? Still playing games in view of joe public?
Bit like the lower-right corner of the Virgin credit card.
Cost reductions by experienced airline people make efficiencies. Cost reductions by talentless morons create risk - after all they don't know what they've cut out. And before you say I'm preaching for QF and AN - haven't you noticed that they didn't/haven't cut costs?
I never espoused higher salaries for pilots - my point was to discuss the low and lowering morale of Australian pilots. First they challenge your salary, then they take away the level of standards. Reading the threads of PPRUNE you've got to be the most bitter and angry bunch of pilots I've ever seen. The constant theme of most threads appears to be a constant bitch about the job and who amongst you is to blame. I was trying to point out that it isn't you, it's the industry.
I was also trying to point out the consequence of your actions and your Unions actions over salaries and conditions actually created the environment for your worst nightmare - the low cost carrier. Rather than see that for what it is you welcome them as almost refreshing for your industry.
They've given you nothing, and taught you only to be grateful that someone created some pilot jobs.
I never said that lower salaries mean unsafe. What I said was the average VB cockpit is now very inexperienced - isn't that a safety issue? How are your rosters? Productive? Your schedule is a mess because your staff and management don't know any better. How's your training? Still using the AN 737-300 Sim? Yup. What's the ratio of NG's to 300's? - 30-1 isn't it? ("Hmm..looks like a 73..smells like a 73..must be a 73..arent they all the same?"). How's the line maintenance? All over the place - that's a fact. How are the F/A PA's? Still playing games in view of joe public?
Bit like the lower-right corner of the Virgin credit card.
Cost reductions by experienced airline people make efficiencies. Cost reductions by talentless morons create risk - after all they don't know what they've cut out. And before you say I'm preaching for QF and AN - haven't you noticed that they didn't/haven't cut costs?
Last edited by Patriot One; 23rd Jul 2003 at 23:12.