Virgin vexed as Air Pacific upgrades
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This is fantastic, better than any comedy series I've seen on TV!!
Virgin I beleive are doing quite well with saftey, they have applied alot of what came out of the LOSA, have had Boeing audits which they were shown to come out trumps.
I say good on Virgin for at least recognising safety deficiencies and doing something about it unlike the table thunping arrogant tools that work in QF.
And to top it all off, you have a bunch of half baked, aero club, PPL holders flying around in 717's, the same clowns that couldn't get into any other airline so they bought a 1900 rating, and now are trying their hardest to prang a 717.
Virgin I beleive are doing quite well with saftey, they have applied alot of what came out of the LOSA, have had Boeing audits which they were shown to come out trumps.
I say good on Virgin for at least recognising safety deficiencies and doing something about it unlike the table thunping arrogant tools that work in QF.
And to top it all off, you have a bunch of half baked, aero club, PPL holders flying around in 717's, the same clowns that couldn't get into any other airline so they bought a 1900 rating, and now are trying their hardest to prang a 717.
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Krunch and Heavy. Not too sure what you guys are trying to achieve but I think you are wasting your time. Heavy that would probably rank as one of the dumbest all time posts, alas I know you are winding up.... nice one.
Alot of the 70's and earlyish 80's pilots (and some of the newer generation) think they are the greatest specimens on earth. Gentlemen there is more than one right way to fly an a/c and just because we don't adopt your neanderthal standard, does not in any way mean it is not as good or BETTER. Many of the neo-lithic practices of the by-gone era have proven to be unsafe and /or not as efficient as MODERN practices.
These FACTS obviously are a thorn in the side of some protagonists.. but get over it lads, it's not all bad. Sure there are plenty of young lads flying jets in virgin, BIG DEAL. Just because some of you losers were denied that privelige does not imply the rest of the planet can not do it.
I guess the good thing is many of you septeganarian types will be gone in a few years, then we wont have to put up with any more of your diatribe.
Enjoy the remainder of your short lives!
Alot of the 70's and earlyish 80's pilots (and some of the newer generation) think they are the greatest specimens on earth. Gentlemen there is more than one right way to fly an a/c and just because we don't adopt your neanderthal standard, does not in any way mean it is not as good or BETTER. Many of the neo-lithic practices of the by-gone era have proven to be unsafe and /or not as efficient as MODERN practices.
These FACTS obviously are a thorn in the side of some protagonists.. but get over it lads, it's not all bad. Sure there are plenty of young lads flying jets in virgin, BIG DEAL. Just because some of you losers were denied that privelige does not imply the rest of the planet can not do it.
I guess the good thing is many of you septeganarian types will be gone in a few years, then we wont have to put up with any more of your diatribe.
Enjoy the remainder of your short lives!
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If you find the 'East Enders' soapie getting a bit lame you know you can always log on to the Dunnunda & Godzone forum for a good catfight. Honestly I haven't heard such bitchiness since I had to babysit my 13 year olds slumber party!!
I think there is a bit too much assuming that most of the stirrers are from QANTAS. I would say these are people who can't get a job with VB and are bitter about it. Either that or they are out of the country, would love to come back but won't go to VB because of the lesser pay and are therefore bitter about it because they want to come home.
Times are a changing, pay will start coming down. Airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries yet get paid in the top 5%. Something is wrong, after all you don't need to be a brain surgeon to operate an aeroplane.
By the way comparing VB with the rest of the world, it isn't really that bad when you consider the standard of life you get. The only bad thing I think is that you have to pay for the endorsement.
Good luck to all of you
(P.S. Maybe someone should just start a thread and let all the scabs, '89ers ,QF's, DJ'ers and anyone else just have a big all out brawl and keep all the other threads along the course they were intended)
I think there is a bit too much assuming that most of the stirrers are from QANTAS. I would say these are people who can't get a job with VB and are bitter about it. Either that or they are out of the country, would love to come back but won't go to VB because of the lesser pay and are therefore bitter about it because they want to come home.
Times are a changing, pay will start coming down. Airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries yet get paid in the top 5%. Something is wrong, after all you don't need to be a brain surgeon to operate an aeroplane.
By the way comparing VB with the rest of the world, it isn't really that bad when you consider the standard of life you get. The only bad thing I think is that you have to pay for the endorsement.
Good luck to all of you
(P.S. Maybe someone should just start a thread and let all the scabs, '89ers ,QF's, DJ'ers and anyone else just have a big all out brawl and keep all the other threads along the course they were intended)
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Guys,
In my own opinion there are both good and bad pilots in both QF and DJ.
Each who would never get in if they didn't have some one inside pushing for them (only some applicants)
But what I don't like is how QF make a science out pilot selection, it should be fair and efficient to the current set of applicants.
In my own opinion there are both good and bad pilots in both QF and DJ.
Each who would never get in if they didn't have some one inside pushing for them (only some applicants)
But what I don't like is how QF make a science out pilot selection, it should be fair and efficient to the current set of applicants.
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Sooty,
I am not sure that you have a good grasp on this profit thing.
You say that airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries. What the hell is that supposed to mean and how does it justify lower wages?
If you had said that they were in the top 5% of UNprofitable industries then you might have a case.
Thats the kind of logic that would see you fail QF's psych test very spectacularly.
**** man,using your logic I think every CEO worthy of his/her position would announce massive losses in all types of industry.
Come to think of it, cooking the books is not altogether unheard of is it?
I am not sure that you have a good grasp on this profit thing.
You say that airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries. What the hell is that supposed to mean and how does it justify lower wages?
If you had said that they were in the top 5% of UNprofitable industries then you might have a case.
Thats the kind of logic that would see you fail QF's psych test very spectacularly.
**** man,using your logic I think every CEO worthy of his/her position would announce massive losses in all types of industry.
Come to think of it, cooking the books is not altogether unheard of is it?
Bwahahahah!!!
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huan hung lo
Sorry mate, already passed it. Also have passed it with Britannia in the UK which is more intensive.
The reason I didn't take the job is that I got into aviation because I like flying, not for the ego of putting other people down!!. At the time I didn't want to sit 4 years as SFO. I'm sure QANTAS is a great job and as you should have read from my last post, I was actually sticking up for QF because I didn't think that anyone with a decent job would spend their time knocking everyone else.
The psych test is not the be all and end all and I believe there is starting to be a re think in their methods by some of the major airlines. I'm sure you would know many prats who have got through. It just isn't practical. As for educational standards I think anyone who passes an ATPL meets the grade. As I said before you don't have to be a brain surgeon to fly an aeroplane. Good CRM and an ego free flight deck is far more important.
As with regards to my comment on airline profitability (didn't realise I was being psychoanalyzed!) this came from the aviation section of a UK newspaper. Basically saying that a shakeup is in order as lack of profits do not justify the high pay.
Sorry mate, already passed it. Also have passed it with Britannia in the UK which is more intensive.
The reason I didn't take the job is that I got into aviation because I like flying, not for the ego of putting other people down!!. At the time I didn't want to sit 4 years as SFO. I'm sure QANTAS is a great job and as you should have read from my last post, I was actually sticking up for QF because I didn't think that anyone with a decent job would spend their time knocking everyone else.
The psych test is not the be all and end all and I believe there is starting to be a re think in their methods by some of the major airlines. I'm sure you would know many prats who have got through. It just isn't practical. As for educational standards I think anyone who passes an ATPL meets the grade. As I said before you don't have to be a brain surgeon to fly an aeroplane. Good CRM and an ego free flight deck is far more important.
As with regards to my comment on airline profitability (didn't realise I was being psychoanalyzed!) this came from the aviation section of a UK newspaper. Basically saying that a shakeup is in order as lack of profits do not justify the high pay.
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But really, my view is that anyone who holds a CPL or above and is charged with operating an aircraft in commercial operations should be deserving of some respect as a person and in particular, IN THIS FORUM. To go on and on and on about various incidents and attribute them to some company idiosyncracy is counterproductive. This sort of attitude creates an environment whereby people make a mistake and then keep quiet about it. Then NO-ONE LEARNS. Have you ever mis-read a frequency on a chart? Forgoten to turn of the strobes after landing? Missed a support call? No? Then you must be Superman! An error is an error is an error. and we ALL make them. I would love to hear the honest story from the guys who mistook the road for a RWY or took off from SYD with the IRSs unaligned. They aren't dumb people, maybe I could LEARN from their mistake. I could swap them one or two personal anecdotes for sure. And remember that any mistake that doesn't result in a smoking hole is a cheap one. I am sure that these people have engaged in great introspection and if you are a TRUE professional, then you should act to create an environment from whereby people can LEARN. So There..Ya F@#$%^& W#$%^s
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 2nd Jul 2003 at 20:29.
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xkred27 have you lived in the so called 3rd WORLD if not pull your head in
Ask yourself what would it be like to fly out of the TRAINING AREA and also,
The arses are alot smaller up here, alot better package.
Life is not all about football
Enjoy the confounds of the East Coast
Ask yourself what would it be like to fly out of the TRAINING AREA and also,
The arses are alot smaller up here, alot better package.
Life is not all about football
Enjoy the confounds of the East Coast
longhaul
CAL didn't add up when i was offered a 2nd interview and it doesn't add up now.
8-14 days home a month reads Australian tax and a strenghtening Aussie dollar has meant a 20% pay cut in the last 6 months.
Just doesn't add up.
Must admit this is my first AFL season away from home and I miss it terribly. How's Eddie? Sammy? Don't miss the toothless Collingwood army.
If you have a way of circumventing Australian tax laws re the Gen Dec I wouldn't boast about here! QF boys get funny at the hint of anybody doing better.
CAL didn't add up when i was offered a 2nd interview and it doesn't add up now.
8-14 days home a month reads Australian tax and a strenghtening Aussie dollar has meant a 20% pay cut in the last 6 months.
Just doesn't add up.
Must admit this is my first AFL season away from home and I miss it terribly. How's Eddie? Sammy? Don't miss the toothless Collingwood army.
If you have a way of circumventing Australian tax laws re the Gen Dec I wouldn't boast about here! QF boys get funny at the hint of anybody doing better.
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Despite all the vitriole I find one thing stands out here.
In the 'old' days of Ansett and Australian, East West and so on, right through to pre - 9/11 and just AN & QF there existed a level of prefessional respect between Australian Airline pilots.
Nowadays this seems to have been replaced by mistrust and a total lack of respect. Comments along the lines of 'you are not good enough cos you failed our process' were few and far between only a few years ago.
Now it seems a standard.
Whist no one should hold the Virgin pilots responsible for capitalising on an opportunity, it does appear that the emergence of the low cost airline has created two seperate camps of Australian pilots.
Time will tell if there will ever be a reconciliation, however in the meantime all we can expect is a string of insults levelled at one another.
One thing is for sure, unless or until there is a major incident / accident involving pilot error the arguments on both sides are simply hyperbole.
I sincerely hope to see more hyperbole and no more.
In the 'old' days of Ansett and Australian, East West and so on, right through to pre - 9/11 and just AN & QF there existed a level of prefessional respect between Australian Airline pilots.
Nowadays this seems to have been replaced by mistrust and a total lack of respect. Comments along the lines of 'you are not good enough cos you failed our process' were few and far between only a few years ago.
Now it seems a standard.
Whist no one should hold the Virgin pilots responsible for capitalising on an opportunity, it does appear that the emergence of the low cost airline has created two seperate camps of Australian pilots.
Time will tell if there will ever be a reconciliation, however in the meantime all we can expect is a string of insults levelled at one another.
One thing is for sure, unless or until there is a major incident / accident involving pilot error the arguments on both sides are simply hyperbole.
I sincerely hope to see more hyperbole and no more.
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sperm bank, I have to agree with you.
Ralph the Bong, credit to you for a good posting.
Also to you too longjohn, maybe we could finish this thread on a positive note (even if it is now totally unrelated to the original thread!!)
Ralph the Bong, credit to you for a good posting.
Also to you too longjohn, maybe we could finish this thread on a positive note (even if it is now totally unrelated to the original thread!!)
Last edited by Sooty; 3rd Jul 2003 at 18:42.
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I don't understand you sooty.
Did you make the decision not to work for QF before or after doing the psych tests?
Or was it during the psych tests?
Presumably an intelligent individual such as I am sure that you are, would have been aware that you start with the rank of S/O.
If that didn't sit right with you then why bother?
By the way I don't work for QF.
My points about that silly profit analogy still stand irrespective of its author.
Did you make the decision not to work for QF before or after doing the psych tests?
Or was it during the psych tests?
Presumably an intelligent individual such as I am sure that you are, would have been aware that you start with the rank of S/O.
If that didn't sit right with you then why bother?
By the way I don't work for QF.
My points about that silly profit analogy still stand irrespective of its author.
Last edited by huan hung lo; 3rd Jul 2003 at 10:31.
Nunc est bibendum
What is really sad to see about this thread is that we have missed the point. Pay, conditions and corporate culture are somewhat inter linked but at the end of the day, one set of pilots trained in Australia will probably be pretty close to another set of pilots trained in Australia.
There are things that amaze me about DJ just as there are things about QF that amaze the average DJ crew. The point is, we shouldn't be wasting our time looking at how crap we think the other side is lest we forget to keep our eye on our own airspeed and end up spinning in. I've seen some truly 'interesting' things from watching DJ aircraft, I've seen equally 'interesting' things from watching QF aircraft. We are all subject to threats, we all make errors and we all have lapses. Sometimes our error management is up to the task, sometimes it isn't.
Interesting thing about LOSA though. The more prescriptive your documentation, the greater possibility of stuffing it up. Not once have I ever not been stable at 500'. Now, say a crew was doing 218 with the speedbrake out as the track miles to run ticked to 11 miles. Under LOSA that is an UAS (if you don't know what that is then you shouldn't be mentioning LOSA anyway!)even if the aircraft was at 2500' and therefore close to the right energy level!. So where once upon a time nothing would even have crossed your mind, now I've had a UAS (depending on the tolerances which incidentally are generally set by the airline undertaking the audit!)
So whats my point about all this. If we keep laughing at each other for the stuff ups, if we stick with the hindsight bias of believing that we could never make those sorts of mistakes, if we keep trying to prove who is the bigger, better, bold pilot, then we run a HUGE chance of continuing to make the same mistakes.
Finally, this thread makes me sad. I can't believe I share the sky with such narrow minded, high and mighty people who believe that just because they wear the uniform of a particular carrier that they must be better than those that wear the uniform of another. I think it's sad that because a different carrier has had it's share of stuff ups that their airline is somehow immune. I guess the stats are showing that we're all as bad as each other. This thread is yet more proof of that!
There are things that amaze me about DJ just as there are things about QF that amaze the average DJ crew. The point is, we shouldn't be wasting our time looking at how crap we think the other side is lest we forget to keep our eye on our own airspeed and end up spinning in. I've seen some truly 'interesting' things from watching DJ aircraft, I've seen equally 'interesting' things from watching QF aircraft. We are all subject to threats, we all make errors and we all have lapses. Sometimes our error management is up to the task, sometimes it isn't.
Interesting thing about LOSA though. The more prescriptive your documentation, the greater possibility of stuffing it up. Not once have I ever not been stable at 500'. Now, say a crew was doing 218 with the speedbrake out as the track miles to run ticked to 11 miles. Under LOSA that is an UAS (if you don't know what that is then you shouldn't be mentioning LOSA anyway!)even if the aircraft was at 2500' and therefore close to the right energy level!. So where once upon a time nothing would even have crossed your mind, now I've had a UAS (depending on the tolerances which incidentally are generally set by the airline undertaking the audit!)
So whats my point about all this. If we keep laughing at each other for the stuff ups, if we stick with the hindsight bias of believing that we could never make those sorts of mistakes, if we keep trying to prove who is the bigger, better, bold pilot, then we run a HUGE chance of continuing to make the same mistakes.
Finally, this thread makes me sad. I can't believe I share the sky with such narrow minded, high and mighty people who believe that just because they wear the uniform of a particular carrier that they must be better than those that wear the uniform of another. I think it's sad that because a different carrier has had it's share of stuff ups that their airline is somehow immune. I guess the stats are showing that we're all as bad as each other. This thread is yet more proof of that!
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Keg I agree with you there. I have taken the bait on more than one occassion and I guess that is a flaw in my character that needs attention. I do find it hard to hold back at times when obvious inaccuracies are posted or dejected misfits plaster vitriolic diatribe in here. It just aint right!
That said, they will never go away and leave us in peace. Per head of population Oz has by far the biggest ratio of morons in sky. Absolutely no doubt about it. I never witnessed this sort of garbage in Europe or the States. Perhaps by virtue of our isolation we feel the need to berate each other to convey our point more clearly without fear of retribution. I don't know what the reason is but like yourslef I am disgusted with some of the contributions.
As I say by default I may have been on occassion guilty of adding fuel to the fire. Mostly in defense of collegues on both sides of the fence but all the same, guilty.
I take your post on board for future application.
Cheers, SPERMATOSA!
That said, they will never go away and leave us in peace. Per head of population Oz has by far the biggest ratio of morons in sky. Absolutely no doubt about it. I never witnessed this sort of garbage in Europe or the States. Perhaps by virtue of our isolation we feel the need to berate each other to convey our point more clearly without fear of retribution. I don't know what the reason is but like yourslef I am disgusted with some of the contributions.
As I say by default I may have been on occassion guilty of adding fuel to the fire. Mostly in defense of collegues on both sides of the fence but all the same, guilty.
I take your post on board for future application.
Cheers, SPERMATOSA!
