Virgin vexed as Air Pacific upgrades
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Haun, where did I say that a bag snatcher should be paid as much as a jet Pilot? I didn't. Read my post again. Carefully. My inference is that other staff play an important safety role in operations. By the way, I dont partake in 'weed', the "Ralph the Bong" nickname came from 2 Swedish backpackers who I..never mind..
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All this bleating about 'low paid' pilots. Wouldn't be a jet captain in OZ earning less than $100k a year, and the Virgin pilots considerably more. Open the newspapers and look at the salaries on offer for doctors to go and work in rathole country towns. Divide the hours worked by dollars earned and you can't seriously think we are ever going to get sympathy from either the unwashed public, or airline beancounters who ENVY us so bad it hurts them.
Sure, our conditions have been eroded over the years. But, so far, it ain't that bad given the cost of living in this country. I'd rather be on 100k here than twice that amount in Europe or most of Asia.
Mention was made of the p!ss poor salaries at Polynesian and Air Pacific, but again, compared with what the rest of the local workforce earns, not too bad. Local captains are quite well off if they live the local life. Only bad if you are an expat trying to put the kids through private school, pay off the investments, property etc, but then you wouldn't be there if you could get a job in Oz, would you?
Qantas pilots will eventually end up on Virgin-type salaries, not the reverse, so get used to just being in the top 10%, not the top 2.5% (or whatever it is), of wage earners.
Sure, our conditions have been eroded over the years. But, so far, it ain't that bad given the cost of living in this country. I'd rather be on 100k here than twice that amount in Europe or most of Asia.
Mention was made of the p!ss poor salaries at Polynesian and Air Pacific, but again, compared with what the rest of the local workforce earns, not too bad. Local captains are quite well off if they live the local life. Only bad if you are an expat trying to put the kids through private school, pay off the investments, property etc, but then you wouldn't be there if you could get a job in Oz, would you?
Qantas pilots will eventually end up on Virgin-type salaries, not the reverse, so get used to just being in the top 10%, not the top 2.5% (or whatever it is), of wage earners.
You get what you pay for, and Virgin Blue to a large extent have.
One must only look to the Atsb website to gain an insight into the Virgin Blue cockpit circus. For those that prefer to turn a blind eye to the amateurish Virgin Blue flightcrew standards, read no further.
The documented cases reveal an F/o who has difficulty reading Ng altimeters, a crew taxiing with an engineer attached to the aeroplane, the quickest 737 walkarounds known, and a not so secret runway overun. No mention is made of the takeoff with pitot covers installed, or the crew operating below transition altitude on a standard altimeter setting (and subsequent near miss). Formerly the domain of private pilots.
While all airlines have incidents, Virgin Blue's show that Australian airline standards have reached an all time low.
One must only look to the Atsb website to gain an insight into the Virgin Blue cockpit circus. For those that prefer to turn a blind eye to the amateurish Virgin Blue flightcrew standards, read no further.
The documented cases reveal an F/o who has difficulty reading Ng altimeters, a crew taxiing with an engineer attached to the aeroplane, the quickest 737 walkarounds known, and a not so secret runway overun. No mention is made of the takeoff with pitot covers installed, or the crew operating below transition altitude on a standard altimeter setting (and subsequent near miss). Formerly the domain of private pilots.
While all airlines have incidents, Virgin Blue's show that Australian airline standards have reached an all time low.
Last edited by Karunch; 29th Jun 2003 at 17:34.
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Hi all,
personally, I would like to see Air Pacific go out of business -
they are a group of mostly unprofessional locals, with no real idea what is happening around them, the expats in there battling against the bickering and back-stabbing that goes on is what keeps the place afloat!
AP have run brand new 737s off the runway, heavy landed 737s at Sydney, frightened some pax half to death with their goround procedure, and the standard of aircraft maintenance is frightening.
And, of course, now there is no FE overseeing the work on the longhaul 744s, and they were kept quite busy on the 742s.
I don't have enough room here to tell you about the style of their crew scheduling department, suffice to say that they went quite a long way out of their way to be nasty to expats!
By far, the best Fijian I ever met, sadly died whilst I was there, and they have gone backwards ever since!
nuf said!
personally, I would like to see Air Pacific go out of business -
they are a group of mostly unprofessional locals, with no real idea what is happening around them, the expats in there battling against the bickering and back-stabbing that goes on is what keeps the place afloat!
AP have run brand new 737s off the runway, heavy landed 737s at Sydney, frightened some pax half to death with their goround procedure, and the standard of aircraft maintenance is frightening.
And, of course, now there is no FE overseeing the work on the longhaul 744s, and they were kept quite busy on the 742s.
I don't have enough room here to tell you about the style of their crew scheduling department, suffice to say that they went quite a long way out of their way to be nasty to expats!
By far, the best Fijian I ever met, sadly died whilst I was there, and they have gone backwards ever since!
nuf said!
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So fruitbatflyer, you'd be quite happy to take a pay cut then wherever you work? I can only assume you're not an airline pilot, because I don't think there'd be anyone of us quite as laid back about eroding conditions as you seem to be.
This issue is not about what pilots in different countries or different professions get paid - this is about keeping what we have, without people such as yourself being content at the prospect of us getting less.
This issue is not about what pilots in different countries or different professions get paid - this is about keeping what we have, without people such as yourself being content at the prospect of us getting less.
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Lets blame DJ for everything, I hear they contributed to starting the Iraq war, caused HIH and Onetel to collaspe, indirectly manipulates OPEC, developed SARS and released it into ASIA, and I have also heard that David Hunter has organised a hugh multi-national golbalised conglomerate to lower the wages of QF pilots.
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Karunch, A few VB incidents that Qantas has done before.
Did the VB running off the runway cost $100, 000, 000 to repair and ruin a perfectly good golf course. Whilst blamming the crew standards, look at your own vast pool of experience. One VB FO would on average have the hours of 10-20 cadets, they also have experience in airmanship that the cadets will never have.
So don't talk experience. Everyone flying knows Brizzi's main rwy is closed for work at nights, everyone except the QF allstars.
Did the VB running off the runway cost $100, 000, 000 to repair and ruin a perfectly good golf course. Whilst blamming the crew standards, look at your own vast pool of experience. One VB FO would on average have the hours of 10-20 cadets, they also have experience in airmanship that the cadets will never have.
So don't talk experience. Everyone flying knows Brizzi's main rwy is closed for work at nights, everyone except the QF allstars.
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Supply and demand
That is all everyone needs to remember.
Lots of low time wannabe's looking to get out of instructing, who will do anything to get type rated on something with nacelles rather than props.
Likewise, lots of seats on wide bodied aircraft, with only enough bums around to sit in them. Come back to the original thread. Are Air Pacific actually going to be able fill 300 seats every day to the stated airports? If not then they will lose money (even more so if others join in, e.g. DJ) - and as for flights to the USA - please. United pulled out of flights to NZ because they couldn't make on it. Do you think Mr. Yankee Doodle Dandy is going to want to fly Air Pacific? Who will use the LAX service. They will have to be hellishly competitive and hope they can get the round the world backpacker set.
Lots of low time wannabe's looking to get out of instructing, who will do anything to get type rated on something with nacelles rather than props.
Likewise, lots of seats on wide bodied aircraft, with only enough bums around to sit in them. Come back to the original thread. Are Air Pacific actually going to be able fill 300 seats every day to the stated airports? If not then they will lose money (even more so if others join in, e.g. DJ) - and as for flights to the USA - please. United pulled out of flights to NZ because they couldn't make on it. Do you think Mr. Yankee Doodle Dandy is going to want to fly Air Pacific? Who will use the LAX service. They will have to be hellishly competitive and hope they can get the round the world backpacker set.
Xkred27, I'm not Qf. If you read my post carefully, I was commenting on the type of incidents Virgin Blue encounters, not making a comparison to Qf. These type of incidents used to be the sole domain of private pilots (taxiing over chocks sort of thing).
Virgin Blue's poor standards reputation extends well beyond Australia's shores. Cheers,
Virgin Blue's poor standards reputation extends well beyond Australia's shores. Cheers,
Karunch...are you not in the real world with your posts?
QF not only onverran a runway in Bangkok, they recently ran off a runway in Darwin. They also got a stall warning/stick shaker on approach to land during a S/O-F/O handover. They also tried to fly to Bangkok on standby instruments in a 747-400 (entire take-off roll to 25000ft with no primary instruments). Repeated incidents of 737's landing unspooled and/or with final flap selection at extremely low level. Who are the cowboys???
Have you heard of LOSA?
Years ago a domestic aircraft tried to land on a road in Mackay - and what did a Qantas aircraft try to do last month? Do we not learn from history?
Virgin have done rather well I think, given they have been expanding exponentially and only in existence for a couple of years.
Qantas have been around much, much longer, you would have hoped they would have it perfected by now. Their flight safety incidents and related culture appear to be deteriorating not improving.
QF not only onverran a runway in Bangkok, they recently ran off a runway in Darwin. They also got a stall warning/stick shaker on approach to land during a S/O-F/O handover. They also tried to fly to Bangkok on standby instruments in a 747-400 (entire take-off roll to 25000ft with no primary instruments). Repeated incidents of 737's landing unspooled and/or with final flap selection at extremely low level. Who are the cowboys???
Have you heard of LOSA?
Years ago a domestic aircraft tried to land on a road in Mackay - and what did a Qantas aircraft try to do last month? Do we not learn from history?
Virgin have done rather well I think, given they have been expanding exponentially and only in existence for a couple of years.
Qantas have been around much, much longer, you would have hoped they would have it perfected by now. Their flight safety incidents and related culture appear to be deteriorating not improving.
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Karunch I suspect you of a wind up but alas your less than intelligent perspective is somewhat distorted. You quite obviously have no idea of what a STANDARD is. Possibly one of your friends may have conveyed inaccurate info to you which you thought you could act on.
The incidents you refered to DID happen and quite obviously are not covered up. You read about them did you not? Along with the PLETHORA of QANTAS mishaps over the years, most of us chose to learn from these mistakes, Not sit at a computer and blast off baseless, unfounded drivel.
You would not have any idea how many QF stuff ups have never made it to the media over the years. I will not give you the satisfaction (or lack there of) by informing you of just a few. It is none of your business! If you ever get into the real world of airline flying, both here and overseas, you will drastically alter your mindless opinion.
Incidents happen on a daily basis here in Oz and O.S. When they happen we deal with them. DJ and QF drivers are no different in that regard.How on earth you would ahve NAY idea re the standards at Virgin would be interesting to know. If you are using MEDIA reports, my god you are desperate!
When you have operated in airlines both here and abroad, come back and lecture us on STANDARDS, I would be very keen to hear your opinion!
The incidents you refered to DID happen and quite obviously are not covered up. You read about them did you not? Along with the PLETHORA of QANTAS mishaps over the years, most of us chose to learn from these mistakes, Not sit at a computer and blast off baseless, unfounded drivel.
You would not have any idea how many QF stuff ups have never made it to the media over the years. I will not give you the satisfaction (or lack there of) by informing you of just a few. It is none of your business! If you ever get into the real world of airline flying, both here and overseas, you will drastically alter your mindless opinion.
Incidents happen on a daily basis here in Oz and O.S. When they happen we deal with them. DJ and QF drivers are no different in that regard.How on earth you would ahve NAY idea re the standards at Virgin would be interesting to know. If you are using MEDIA reports, my god you are desperate!
When you have operated in airlines both here and abroad, come back and lecture us on STANDARDS, I would be very keen to hear your opinion!
Sperm Bank
I don't think Krunch was lecturing.
Your last line is kind of stupid because I think he has.(non 89)
We all draw on the anecdotal from colleagues who fly with VB. These people are more than qualified to give an opinion-exEK CX KD ect- on a comparison of standards. You don't have to have incidents every day to have the reputation of a laid back circus.
I think there was some anecdotal in Karunch's posts from serving VB captains.
I don't think Krunch was lecturing.
Your last line is kind of stupid because I think he has.(non 89)
We all draw on the anecdotal from colleagues who fly with VB. These people are more than qualified to give an opinion-exEK CX KD ect- on a comparison of standards. You don't have to have incidents every day to have the reputation of a laid back circus.
I think there was some anecdotal in Karunch's posts from serving VB captains.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 30th Jun 2003 at 16:55.
Sperm Bank et Al,
Try to take a step back. If airline pilots are missing pitot covers on pre-flight inspections, taxiing around an Msl aerodrome with 500ft indicated on the Pfd, or operating with crew members who have difficulty reading altimeters, surely this is a problem. Regardless of whose name is on the tail. Once again, this is not a comparison with Qf.
Perhaps instead of asking me if I've heard of Losa, you should be asking the Dj safety department (clearly they have not, and do not want to). And it doesn't take a statistician to establish here is no comparison between Qf & Dj given the disparity between their operating environments and the number of sectors operated. Anecdotal evidence perhaps, but the Dj external check & trainers I believe are amply qualified, and do, pass comment (and not in Dj's favour). With personal experience operating for both Australian & overseas carriers, reading these reports makes me wonder if I've stumbled upon the safety site of a developing nation.
Australian airlines have enjoyed a reputation for safety that many (including myself) have traded upon favourably. Sadly, this is being eroded by some of the rank amateurs now operating in this benign environment. Cheers,
Try to take a step back. If airline pilots are missing pitot covers on pre-flight inspections, taxiing around an Msl aerodrome with 500ft indicated on the Pfd, or operating with crew members who have difficulty reading altimeters, surely this is a problem. Regardless of whose name is on the tail. Once again, this is not a comparison with Qf.
Perhaps instead of asking me if I've heard of Losa, you should be asking the Dj safety department (clearly they have not, and do not want to). And it doesn't take a statistician to establish here is no comparison between Qf & Dj given the disparity between their operating environments and the number of sectors operated. Anecdotal evidence perhaps, but the Dj external check & trainers I believe are amply qualified, and do, pass comment (and not in Dj's favour). With personal experience operating for both Australian & overseas carriers, reading these reports makes me wonder if I've stumbled upon the safety site of a developing nation.
Australian airlines have enjoyed a reputation for safety that many (including myself) have traded upon favourably. Sadly, this is being eroded by some of the rank amateurs now operating in this benign environment. Cheers,
Last edited by Karunch; 30th Jun 2003 at 19:22.
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Crunch,
Your speaking out of your arse.
You obviously have a one eyed view of DJ and nothing anyone says will convince you that you are wrong.
So there is no point in discussing it beyond saying that I take your comments as a personal insult.
Have a crack at the company by all means but leave the good reputation of the drivers alone - they do not deserve your vile comments
Your speaking out of your arse.
You obviously have a one eyed view of DJ and nothing anyone says will convince you that you are wrong.
So there is no point in discussing it beyond saying that I take your comments as a personal insult.
Have a crack at the company by all means but leave the good reputation of the drivers alone - they do not deserve your vile comments
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For once and for all call a spade a spade. The majority of the DJ pilots are the bottom of the barrell. Couldn't get a job in a real airline due to being poor pilots, no education or the psyc test got them.
You lower the standard of aviation jet flying by taking such poor conditions. Thats all your worth. You guys are pathetic.
You lower the standard of aviation jet flying by taking such poor conditions. Thats all your worth. You guys are pathetic.
Heavyjet
That's a big call for a fellow flying for China Airlines!
Call sign "Dynasty" or "Die Nasty"?
The conditions on offer weren't so good when I had a look 12 months ago. In comparison to CX/KA wouldn't you be the Virgins of the South China Sea?
Nice wind up.
That's a big call for a fellow flying for China Airlines!
Call sign "Dynasty" or "Die Nasty"?
The conditions on offer weren't so good when I had a look 12 months ago. In comparison to CX/KA wouldn't you be the Virgins of the South China Sea?
Nice wind up.
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This thread is drifting guys
into a we hate/love DJ/QF depending who you work for.
On the subject of China Airlines (and Air Pacific) - I would not let my dog fly on either never mind my family. I would trust DJ anf QF (but wouldn't fly QF as I like hosties that actually smile and are under 50)
On the subject of China Airlines (and Air Pacific) - I would not let my dog fly on either never mind my family. I would trust DJ anf QF (but wouldn't fly QF as I like hosties that actually smile and are under 50)
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heavyjetloser, you are a tottle f---wit!!!
Enjoy living in the third world do we?
You must think your pretty good pilot compared with the local CAL
guys.
I havn't decided what to do this weekend in sunny Brizzie,
watch the Reds, Broncos or the Lions. What excitement will you be up to in Taipei. Enjoy all your cash!!!!
Get lost wan@er
Enjoy living in the third world do we?
You must think your pretty good pilot compared with the local CAL
guys.
I havn't decided what to do this weekend in sunny Brizzie,
watch the Reds, Broncos or the Lions. What excitement will you be up to in Taipei. Enjoy all your cash!!!!
Get lost wan@er
Last edited by xkred27; 1st Jul 2003 at 07:01.
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Hey heavyjetguy
Firstly, for someone with such a good education, barrel has only one l.
Secondly, I am assuming that by a REAL airline you are referring to QANTAS. If this is the case, then the reason that I couldn't get a job with them is not that I am a poor pilot, have no education or couldn't pass the psych test. The fact is that I never applied to them because I did not want to work for QANTAS. I don't like their elitist attitude, and I wanted to fly domestically. I have a higher standard of education than most pilots, and an IQ of over 150, so the reasons that you gave were inaccurate.
My standard of jet flying is a personal attribute which is not dictated by salary. Are you intimating that if QANTAS reduces pilot pay scales, their pilots will fly to a lower standard?
I think we all know who is pathetic.
For once and for all call a spade a spade. The majority of the DJ pilots are the bottom of the barrell. Couldn't get a job in a real airline due to being poor pilots, no education or the psyc test got them.
Secondly, I am assuming that by a REAL airline you are referring to QANTAS. If this is the case, then the reason that I couldn't get a job with them is not that I am a poor pilot, have no education or couldn't pass the psych test. The fact is that I never applied to them because I did not want to work for QANTAS. I don't like their elitist attitude, and I wanted to fly domestically. I have a higher standard of education than most pilots, and an IQ of over 150, so the reasons that you gave were inaccurate.
You lower the standard of aviation jet flying by taking such poor conditions. Thats all your worth. You guys are pathetic.
I think we all know who is pathetic.