Will Virgin Blue Ever Operate Internationally?
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No confusion.
Add two and two. EK has negotiated tran-Tasman rights. They are increasing capacity to oz. They will have at least 2 large, expensive aeroplanes sitting on the ground all day, every day unless they can be employedsomehow . Are you thinking what I'm thinking B1? I am B2.
Relevance to DJ (and QF)? Certainly. Going to make it an awful lot harder for DJ to go to trans-Tasman (if, indeed, they ever were). Going to make it an awful lot easier for QF to convince the ACCC that there will be competition and therefor allow the merger .
Add two and two. EK has negotiated tran-Tasman rights. They are increasing capacity to oz. They will have at least 2 large, expensive aeroplanes sitting on the ground all day, every day unless they can be employedsomehow . Are you thinking what I'm thinking B1? I am B2.
Relevance to DJ (and QF)? Certainly. Going to make it an awful lot harder for DJ to go to trans-Tasman (if, indeed, they ever were). Going to make it an awful lot easier for QF to convince the ACCC that there will be competition and therefor allow the merger .
Johnny Utah
You are falling into a protectionist trap. Nobody cares if you lose your job . Or if your promotion is stalled due a new and exciting airline entering the scene. Australians will flock to the new entity with its fancy advertising etc.
Ansett was an icon too. 16000 jobs.
Un-Australian? Well what about the QF pilot group? Did they go to bat for their AN pilot colleagues?
Many exAN flew on QF contracts and little was done by your group to ensure they got a permament positions. No doubt QF fellows were jumping over themselves feeding on the AN carcus.
I would suggest it was only TJ who displayed an "Australian" attitude. Despite some of his favoured exAN loyal subjects not meeting initial QF psyche profiling, after the initial knockbacks TJ got them in the door. TJ couldn't help everybody, but he managed to help a select few.
Who did the QF pilot group help? Themselves. 800 local pilots on the market but no qualms about recruiting cadets. And now your positions/wages/conditions may be under pressure. You had exAN pilots sitting on your Flight Decks on contracts while direct entry recruiting. You have yourselves contributed to the above mentioned squeezes due contributing to an oversupply.
The 89ers have always said QF pilots looked after themselves. Ringing true?
Just observations Johnny. What do you think? And I am not a bitter QF wannabe as although Australia is the best country in the world to live, it no longer has the best airline positions-VB or junior QF S/O living in Sydney average by world standards.
A thousand highly qualified Australian expat pilots would love to come home at your expense. But I am sure they wouldn't like to see QF pilots "hurt", like many others in the industry, out of malice. Just putting themselves first!
You are falling into a protectionist trap. Nobody cares if you lose your job . Or if your promotion is stalled due a new and exciting airline entering the scene. Australians will flock to the new entity with its fancy advertising etc.
Ansett was an icon too. 16000 jobs.
Un-Australian? Well what about the QF pilot group? Did they go to bat for their AN pilot colleagues?
Many exAN flew on QF contracts and little was done by your group to ensure they got a permament positions. No doubt QF fellows were jumping over themselves feeding on the AN carcus.
I would suggest it was only TJ who displayed an "Australian" attitude. Despite some of his favoured exAN loyal subjects not meeting initial QF psyche profiling, after the initial knockbacks TJ got them in the door. TJ couldn't help everybody, but he managed to help a select few.
Who did the QF pilot group help? Themselves. 800 local pilots on the market but no qualms about recruiting cadets. And now your positions/wages/conditions may be under pressure. You had exAN pilots sitting on your Flight Decks on contracts while direct entry recruiting. You have yourselves contributed to the above mentioned squeezes due contributing to an oversupply.
The 89ers have always said QF pilots looked after themselves. Ringing true?
Just observations Johnny. What do you think? And I am not a bitter QF wannabe as although Australia is the best country in the world to live, it no longer has the best airline positions-VB or junior QF S/O living in Sydney average by world standards.
A thousand highly qualified Australian expat pilots would love to come home at your expense. But I am sure they wouldn't like to see QF pilots "hurt", like many others in the industry, out of malice. Just putting themselves first!
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You sound very bitter actually....
Ah what the heck, a bit of cadet bashing eh, why not ? After all cadets have taken everyones "right" to a job at qantas. What part don't you get? You don't have a right to a job at any institution let alone Qantas. You apply, and the people on the day decide whether your suitable amongst the candidates. Qantas take people from all walks of life - GA, Air Force and yes Cadets.
Please spare me, i can hear the violins.
Ah what the heck, a bit of cadet bashing eh, why not ? After all cadets have taken everyones "right" to a job at qantas. What part don't you get? You don't have a right to a job at any institution let alone Qantas. You apply, and the people on the day decide whether your suitable amongst the candidates. Qantas take people from all walks of life - GA, Air Force and yes Cadets.
Please spare me, i can hear the violins.
bb
As much as I can do to protect his job now I suppose. But the silence was deafening when AN went down. Again too, when exAN pilots were flying around in QF aircraft and couldn't get permament slots.
I would not wish JU the hardships of retrenchment or lack of promotion but don't feel my sentiments widespread.
blueloo
Yes I love to cadet bash. Guilty as charged.
But bitter about QF no. Just observations. And I was trying to point out that Johnny falling into a trap about people caring for his QF position.
My point was there was 800 pilots on the market and now your conditions under the squeeze due oversupply. Cadets contribute to an oversupply.
How? QF promotion and expansion was at the expense of an AN carcus. Qualified pliots were replaced by cadets Now you have an oversupply and you have QF conditions under the pump. Is there a link?
VB has its own cadet progrramme too. 1000 hour pilots into RHS 737. A smart way to keep conditions down.
The supply and demand of pilots, which is proportional to pay and conditions, takes a battering when experience no longer weighs for anything.
See past my initial dig blueloo.
As much as I can do to protect his job now I suppose. But the silence was deafening when AN went down. Again too, when exAN pilots were flying around in QF aircraft and couldn't get permament slots.
I would not wish JU the hardships of retrenchment or lack of promotion but don't feel my sentiments widespread.
blueloo
Yes I love to cadet bash. Guilty as charged.
But bitter about QF no. Just observations. And I was trying to point out that Johnny falling into a trap about people caring for his QF position.
My point was there was 800 pilots on the market and now your conditions under the squeeze due oversupply. Cadets contribute to an oversupply.
How? QF promotion and expansion was at the expense of an AN carcus. Qualified pliots were replaced by cadets Now you have an oversupply and you have QF conditions under the pump. Is there a link?
VB has its own cadet progrramme too. 1000 hour pilots into RHS 737. A smart way to keep conditions down.
The supply and demand of pilots, which is proportional to pay and conditions, takes a battering when experience no longer weighs for anything.
See past my initial dig blueloo.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 4th Jun 2003 at 15:16.
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If Virgin have any 1000 hr pilots in the RHS it would only be one or two out of 430 odd pilots - not a particularly large percentage.
Gnadenberg - do a bit of research and find out when the people that were in management position in Ansett both before and after the dispute joined - and with what experience.
I think you will be enlightened.
Virgin have a very broad range of experience within its pilot ranks as does QF - the difference is that the most junior VB guy/gal gets to actually pole the aeroplane - thus gaining experience at a different rate to the junior QF pilot.
Gnadenberg - do a bit of research and find out when the people that were in management position in Ansett both before and after the dispute joined - and with what experience.
I think you will be enlightened.
Virgin have a very broad range of experience within its pilot ranks as does QF - the difference is that the most junior VB guy/gal gets to actually pole the aeroplane - thus gaining experience at a different rate to the junior QF pilot.
Gnadenburg - I can hardly take responsibilty for the management of QF management immendiately post Ansett dispute - at the time I was still slogging away in GA.
However, when I did join some months several months later, it was in a group that was predominantly ex Ansett/Kendell pilots. Much like the 2 courses before, and several courses afterwards.
Given that QF in your opinion stood by & did nothing, I'd be interested to hear how many ex-AN pilots Virgin employed.
You state that:
I believe QF expanded because there was no other carrier in Australia that could cope with the increased numbers, and the fact that they had excess capacity available due to a downturn in international operations.
- I think you'll find that all of the ex-contract pilots who passed the selection process are now full time employees of Qantas. Your comments about QF still recruiting cadets are out of the control of the pilot body - perhaps you should address these qualms to senior management, as there's nothing that your average QF pilot could say to change current policy re: cadets.
However, the most intriguing of your stements was this:
As I understand it, the majority of the senior DJ pilots are ex-89ers, who have now all returned home. It is interesting to note that QF pilots are labelled as 'selfish' at the same time that the same pilots, having earned reportedly large salaries overseas, are now returning home to work for far less than the going rate in the industry. Does anyone see the irony in a group of individuals that were forced to leave the country due to a pay dispute now being largely responsible for a dramatic reduction in the earning potential of Australian pilots? And where was the AFAP when this agreement was signed off? I'd suggest that your statements that current Virgin & junior QF earnings are below world standards is a direct indication of this. So who is looking after themselves / being selfish now?
I'd suggest that there are more factors at work than simply Qantas not employing all of the ex-Ansett pilots as a whole. Out of interest, at the last count, how many were still unemployed?
However, when I did join some months several months later, it was in a group that was predominantly ex Ansett/Kendell pilots. Much like the 2 courses before, and several courses afterwards.
Given that QF in your opinion stood by & did nothing, I'd be interested to hear how many ex-AN pilots Virgin employed.
You state that:
QF promotion and expansion was at the expense of an AN carcus (sic)
Many ex AN flew on QF contracts and little was done by your group to ensure they got a permament positions
However, the most intriguing of your stements was this:
The 89ers have always said QF pilots looked after themselves. Ringing true?
I'd suggest that there are more factors at work than simply Qantas not employing all of the ex-Ansett pilots as a whole. Out of interest, at the last count, how many were still unemployed?
Last edited by Johhny Utah; 5th Jun 2003 at 07:27.
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Personally, if you narrow your intake of people from the groups going into Qantas you will probably get a majority build up of freaks in the company.
If you stopped entrants from the cadet field and air force field, you would be left with the bitter and twisted GA individuals who think that every company owes them a job, because they did the hard yards and have the experience;
If you stopped GA and Cadet intakes, you would be left with the air force psychos and skitso's, who believe that if you didnt train on some high speed jet you know jack
[and if you also dont know the muzzle velocity of a particular type of sub machine gun at 100 yards];
and If you cut out GA and Air Force, leaving the cadets, then well you probably wouldnt have much of an airline.
I think by mixing the intakes QANTAS gets a broader cross section of pilots. Luckily the airline isnt made up entirely of complete whinging nutters a few of which are found on Pprune
If you stopped entrants from the cadet field and air force field, you would be left with the bitter and twisted GA individuals who think that every company owes them a job, because they did the hard yards and have the experience;
If you stopped GA and Cadet intakes, you would be left with the air force psychos and skitso's, who believe that if you didnt train on some high speed jet you know jack
[and if you also dont know the muzzle velocity of a particular type of sub machine gun at 100 yards]; and If you cut out GA and Air Force, leaving the cadets, then well you probably wouldnt have much of an airline.
I think by mixing the intakes QANTAS gets a broader cross section of pilots. Luckily the airline isnt made up entirely of complete whinging nutters a few of which are found on Pprune
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J.Utah - Are all the Australian people who flew on Virgin when they started here anti-Australian? because they flew on a 100% foreign owned airline. Is any passenger that flies on any airline other than QF anti-Australian?
In your eyes, is any Australian who expresses a desire to see fair and equitable competition in Australian skies un-Australian?
Whether you like it or not, SQ will eventually end up in Australia in some way shape or form.
Whether you like it or not, SQ will most likely tie up with Virgin.
Whether you like it or not, SQ and Virgin will end up with REX as it's regional feed.
Have you seen the REX and Virgin tie up in the last few days? whether you like it or not the writing is pretty much on the wall for a solid,lean well managed domestic carrier with regional feed here to compete with QF within the next few years.
Call me what you want, the fact remains that people blinded by rose coloured glasses, and it's usually people that work in QF who just won't accept that you will eventually have to compete again that get on here and shoot everybody else down who expresses a view that either your to arrogant to accept, or just plainly stupid in the face of the realiation the airline industry will bounce back and when it does, demand will grow and airlines like SQ will see aquasitons as a big part of that demand.
I couldn't give a rats ass what you think or your reply, I know that there are a hell of alot of people out there that share the same view as me - I guess we are all un-Australian?
In your eyes, is any Australian who expresses a desire to see fair and equitable competition in Australian skies un-Australian?
Whether you like it or not, SQ will eventually end up in Australia in some way shape or form.
Whether you like it or not, SQ will most likely tie up with Virgin.
Whether you like it or not, SQ and Virgin will end up with REX as it's regional feed.
Have you seen the REX and Virgin tie up in the last few days? whether you like it or not the writing is pretty much on the wall for a solid,lean well managed domestic carrier with regional feed here to compete with QF within the next few years.
Call me what you want, the fact remains that people blinded by rose coloured glasses, and it's usually people that work in QF who just won't accept that you will eventually have to compete again that get on here and shoot everybody else down who expresses a view that either your to arrogant to accept, or just plainly stupid in the face of the realiation the airline industry will bounce back and when it does, demand will grow and airlines like SQ will see aquasitons as a big part of that demand.
I couldn't give a rats ass what you think or your reply, I know that there are a hell of alot of people out there that share the same view as me - I guess we are all un-Australian?
I would suggest that there is a large difference between supporting new entrants & encouraging competition, and what seems to be your ultimate goal of Qantas ending up like Ansett. That would be an Autralian owned company being driven under by an entirely foreign owned entity. If that IS your end goal, then I stand by what my statement that you ARE in fact un-Australian.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Like many others Pete, I'm still waiting for the Singapore 'White Knight' to ride into town & rescue Australian Aviation. Soon it will be coming up on 2 years since Ansett collapsed - and still no Singapore. However, maybe they ARE just around the corner. Like many others, I'll believe it when I see it
By the way - why are you so cranky & uptight? I thought you were having a great time on here stirring all & sundry - it seems like the shoe might be on the other foot now - what do you reckon?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Like many others Pete, I'm still waiting for the Singapore 'White Knight' to ride into town & rescue Australian Aviation. Soon it will be coming up on 2 years since Ansett collapsed - and still no Singapore. However, maybe they ARE just around the corner. Like many others, I'll believe it when I see it
By the way - why are you so cranky & uptight? I thought you were having a great time on here stirring all & sundry - it seems like the shoe might be on the other foot now - what do you reckon?
Last edited by Johhny Utah; 6th Jun 2003 at 16:11.
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Dear Pete,
Maybe the SQ Pilots will be ordered by the MOM to take the 22.5% pay cut extremely begrudgingly and SQ offer % increases in the future on RPK increases.
Maybe then they move in to Australia and combined with their VB counterparts put pressure on the cost structure of Qantas and perceived high wages. (based on people not actually knowing what they are talking about).
Maybe then the Qantas Pilots take a big pay cut to compete with the lower cost models.
Maybe then the SQ and VB pilots take a further pay cut to compete with the now lower cost Qantas.
Maybe then the management of all carriers take huge bonuses on the basis of large profits driven by cost savings, of which the pilots have taken care of themselves due to the envy and greed factor that exists amongst some of the more mercenary members of the job (mercenaries don't belong in the profession, see professionals don't begrudge other professionals earnings. But you wouldn't know about that it seems!)
Then I have a dream, ALL pilots unite and fight for better wages and conditions and try to undo the product of their own selfishness and envy over the last few years.
Maybe I can live that dream now and protect the profession by agreeing that yes, there are high water marks and the aim is to get all members of the profession up to the high water mark, not down the drain to the benefit of greedy management who are quick to claim the glory when all is well, and even quicker to blame labour when it falls to **** and their imagined management skills don't cut the mustard, just the workforce.
Pete, open your eyes, grow up and protect the profession which I assume you have work hard to become a part of. Wishing ill will towards your fellow professionals does you no favour. Unless of course, you are not a professional, in which case this message would have been lost on you anyway.
Maybe the SQ Pilots will be ordered by the MOM to take the 22.5% pay cut extremely begrudgingly and SQ offer % increases in the future on RPK increases.
Maybe then they move in to Australia and combined with their VB counterparts put pressure on the cost structure of Qantas and perceived high wages. (based on people not actually knowing what they are talking about).
Maybe then the Qantas Pilots take a big pay cut to compete with the lower cost models.
Maybe then the SQ and VB pilots take a further pay cut to compete with the now lower cost Qantas.
Maybe then the management of all carriers take huge bonuses on the basis of large profits driven by cost savings, of which the pilots have taken care of themselves due to the envy and greed factor that exists amongst some of the more mercenary members of the job (mercenaries don't belong in the profession, see professionals don't begrudge other professionals earnings. But you wouldn't know about that it seems!)
Then I have a dream, ALL pilots unite and fight for better wages and conditions and try to undo the product of their own selfishness and envy over the last few years.
Maybe I can live that dream now and protect the profession by agreeing that yes, there are high water marks and the aim is to get all members of the profession up to the high water mark, not down the drain to the benefit of greedy management who are quick to claim the glory when all is well, and even quicker to blame labour when it falls to **** and their imagined management skills don't cut the mustard, just the workforce.
Pete, open your eyes, grow up and protect the profession which I assume you have work hard to become a part of. Wishing ill will towards your fellow professionals does you no favour. Unless of course, you are not a professional, in which case this message would have been lost on you anyway.
