Virgin Boss Buys Island For Staff.
topend3
Your prank at pretending to be an unemployed Ansett 747 skipper delivering pizza shattered your credibility-then we found you to be a New Zealander, a further downgrade!
Insensitive comments really, understandable if you were involoved in 89 but not as a baggage thrower/mouthpiece for Godfrey.
HGW
I find it hard to believe you are comparing Virgin conditions, improved under a new EBA, to those of full time QF groundstaff. Surely you are comparing to QF casual? And how much is "almost", as long as a piece of string?
Airsupport
Not a slanging match. VB employees underpaid, so maybe we are just seeing through another Branson publicity stunt.
Your prank at pretending to be an unemployed Ansett 747 skipper delivering pizza shattered your credibility-then we found you to be a New Zealander, a further downgrade!
Insensitive comments really, understandable if you were involoved in 89 but not as a baggage thrower/mouthpiece for Godfrey.
HGW
I find it hard to believe you are comparing Virgin conditions, improved under a new EBA, to those of full time QF groundstaff. Surely you are comparing to QF casual? And how much is "almost", as long as a piece of string?
Airsupport
Not a slanging match. VB employees underpaid, so maybe we are just seeing through another Branson publicity stunt.
you are a sad thing gnadburger,
i am only expressing my opinion on the issue, and i am quite qualified to do so, as for the pizza joke, you have a long memory, just a bit of fun!
lighten up! TRUE - BORN IN NZ, BUT AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN....and hardly a mouthpiece for Godfrey, you need to get that monkey off your back!
EPIRB-
How long will qantas sustain those wages? outsourcing is the way of the future son!
i am only expressing my opinion on the issue, and i am quite qualified to do so, as for the pizza joke, you have a long memory, just a bit of fun!
lighten up! TRUE - BORN IN NZ, BUT AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN....and hardly a mouthpiece for Godfrey, you need to get that monkey off your back!
EPIRB-
How long will qantas sustain those wages? outsourcing is the way of the future son!
Topend3
Me sad? I exposed you as a fraud, had a little fun with you to protect a few colleagues who were taking kicks whilst down.
A joke in the poorest taste. And not unlike the attiude of your PM in the media, Kiwis on Bondi or my golf course, aswell as New Zealand contributors on pprune. Sadly your country may experience the social tragedy the collapse of a large airline brings, within say five years.
Many Ansett pilots did deliver pizza to support their families-did being past tense!
Your attitude, I will throw bags for half of what a QF loader will, not unlike the attiude of the New Zealand shearers who scabbed in this country not that long ago.
Not sustainable, probably right. If you can bring their wages/conditions down you watch the QF pilots come a tumbling too! And that indirectly affects me.
Me sad? I exposed you as a fraud, had a little fun with you to protect a few colleagues who were taking kicks whilst down.
A joke in the poorest taste. And not unlike the attiude of your PM in the media, Kiwis on Bondi or my golf course, aswell as New Zealand contributors on pprune. Sadly your country may experience the social tragedy the collapse of a large airline brings, within say five years.
Many Ansett pilots did deliver pizza to support their families-did being past tense!
Your attitude, I will throw bags for half of what a QF loader will, not unlike the attiude of the New Zealand shearers who scabbed in this country not that long ago.
Not sustainable, probably right. If you can bring their wages/conditions down you watch the QF pilots come a tumbling too! And that indirectly affects me.
Nice try CCY, has nothing to do with being a QF reject.
I would even suggest career wise you may be better off.
The problem stems from relatively appalling conditions. Do bond with your colleagues and continue improve your contract.
Profits seem to manifest themselves into islands for executives. Get some of the pie.
The Virgin Blue wages' benchmark scares us all. Refer my point 3 above.
Pilots a funny breed. Ego driven in all aspects and though denied to save face, very wage sensitive. Look at the very personal responses on this thread. So hopefully the seed of wage unrest planted and your conditions, by your own efforts, raise toward a former industry standard.
I would even suggest career wise you may be better off.
The problem stems from relatively appalling conditions. Do bond with your colleagues and continue improve your contract.
Profits seem to manifest themselves into islands for executives. Get some of the pie.
The Virgin Blue wages' benchmark scares us all. Refer my point 3 above.
Pilots a funny breed. Ego driven in all aspects and though denied to save face, very wage sensitive. Look at the very personal responses on this thread. So hopefully the seed of wage unrest planted and your conditions, by your own efforts, raise toward a former industry standard.
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Geez Gnadenburg, appalling conditions. What appalling conditions. Get real and get off your high horse.
Do you advocate VB staff to push for wage levels that Ansett staff enjoyed and then fall over because they are unsustainable.
Every person in this industry has a choice. If you don't like the pay then leave and find something better.
Is your job in danger?
Do you advocate VB staff to push for wage levels that Ansett staff enjoyed and then fall over because they are unsustainable.
Every person in this industry has a choice. If you don't like the pay then leave and find something better.
Is your job in danger?
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Gnadenburg
Someone mentioned before about democracy and votes etc. A good point. The public are voting with thier feet and they are voting NOT to support the high wage, high cost QF culture. They are the arbiters of what conditions will be and they support VB. That's not undercutting anymore than the local motel is undercutting the Hilton. The market is just much bigger (more jobs etc) if the fares are more affordable. And flying VB is fun too.
By their inaction in 1989 QF pilots voted in favour of labour market deregulation and day by day they are getting closer to the real world where they're to be paid what they're worth, not what they want. Not dragged down by VB but weighted down by their own introspection.
And lets face it, job security is about the biggest perk any pilot has right now and a growing VB is a good place to be.
Someone mentioned before about democracy and votes etc. A good point. The public are voting with thier feet and they are voting NOT to support the high wage, high cost QF culture. They are the arbiters of what conditions will be and they support VB. That's not undercutting anymore than the local motel is undercutting the Hilton. The market is just much bigger (more jobs etc) if the fares are more affordable. And flying VB is fun too.
By their inaction in 1989 QF pilots voted in favour of labour market deregulation and day by day they are getting closer to the real world where they're to be paid what they're worth, not what they want. Not dragged down by VB but weighted down by their own introspection.
And lets face it, job security is about the biggest perk any pilot has right now and a growing VB is a good place to be.
elektra & others - I fail to see why you think that the slowdown in Qantas wage growth is so great. Sure, it might make those who don't work for QF or who want to take down the 'tall poppies' seemingly happy, but please stop & think for a moment. What effect will this have on any push for higher wages at Virgin? I'm sure Godfrey et al will make the most of any news & use it as leverage against the Virgin pilots at their next EBA. After all, why increase wages when the opposition have frozen theirs? No wages growth on the Virgin side will also present an opprtunity to Qantas management & the board to push to either increase efficiencies or attempt to freeze wages so that they can match those of its main competitor. At the end of the day - who wins? Shareholders, most likely, but certainly not the flight crew.
I'm all for guys flying for Virgin quite possibly getting a break & getting either into a jet in Australia, or getting back home after being overseas. However, just because you are willing to accept terms & conditions below the industry accepted standard, don't suddenly declare that they are the industry norm, and try and drag down any others who may be on more money.
After all, how would you feel if Singapore came into the market & declared that their subsidiary airlines Captains would be on $90k flat & FO's on $55k...and then declared all through the industry that they were the new benchmark & everyone else was running with excessively high crew costs...?
Just food for thought...
I'm all for guys flying for Virgin quite possibly getting a break & getting either into a jet in Australia, or getting back home after being overseas. However, just because you are willing to accept terms & conditions below the industry accepted standard, don't suddenly declare that they are the industry norm, and try and drag down any others who may be on more money.
After all, how would you feel if Singapore came into the market & declared that their subsidiary airlines Captains would be on $90k flat & FO's on $55k...and then declared all through the industry that they were the new benchmark & everyone else was running with excessively high crew costs...?
Just food for thought...
HGW
Appalling as in a 40% disparity in conditions between DJ/QF pilots.
If Ansett paid Virgin Blue wages the company would have still been unsustainable. Politics, poor management, poor parent company, recapitalisation ect ect.
But in a well managed QF the Ansett wages, in the most part, are sustainable. Although QF employee conditions are very publically under threat, because of the above mentioned disparity.
And if I were on a high horse I would be hinting at superiority. My slant obvious. The staff island publicity stunt offensive. Godfrey has lowered the bar on conditions, making as much money personally, as a demonised Geoff Dixon.
Elecktra
Some good and valid points. Can't help but think a lot of the validation due 89 and the concept that DJ an AFAP "Phoenix from the Ashes".
If DJ wasn't full of 89ers would your slant be that the 40% conditions disparity due the Scabs?
Better wages are sustainable at DJ.
If Perth was isolated due SARS or a couple of domestic aircraft were blown out of the sky by terrorists, job security would now mean nothing. Even with the low Virgin Blue wages.
Those are the scenarios that previously very strong airlines, who paid very strong wages, now face. Their present vulnerability has nothing to do with them not paying DJ wages!
Johnny utah
Couldn't agree more.
I can't stand the stereotyped QF long haul culture. I must add I have good friends in QF too.
But to see QF conditions come down due a poor DJ package, will not do me any good. International airlines monitor the QF package closely.
My Prediction.
Not a nice subject as judged by the personal responses.
A new wave of Australian pilots now abroad. To keep out of the dirt I will clarify and use the 150 or so former AN F/Os.
In 10 years time highly experienced and highly financial, like the 89ers before them, homeward bound they will come to a third airline,leisure airline or Australian basing for a foreign entity,who operates over the predicted open skies.
They will undercut DJ, with the same justification as the 89ers have used.
Sadly, in 10 years time DJ will probably finally have respectable conditions.
Or will DJ keep its wages down by using "Virgin Cadets" or more likely, take a leaf out of the Australian shipping industry book and use cheap Phillipino labour-in our part of the world that means New Zealanders. Not as unlikely as it seems, the New Zealand basing scenario.
In the above case another island for Godfrey(the Hauraki Gulf would be nice for a staff retreat) and another big bonus for 89ers in Virgin Blue pilot management.
Appalling as in a 40% disparity in conditions between DJ/QF pilots.
If Ansett paid Virgin Blue wages the company would have still been unsustainable. Politics, poor management, poor parent company, recapitalisation ect ect.
But in a well managed QF the Ansett wages, in the most part, are sustainable. Although QF employee conditions are very publically under threat, because of the above mentioned disparity.
And if I were on a high horse I would be hinting at superiority. My slant obvious. The staff island publicity stunt offensive. Godfrey has lowered the bar on conditions, making as much money personally, as a demonised Geoff Dixon.
Elecktra
Some good and valid points. Can't help but think a lot of the validation due 89 and the concept that DJ an AFAP "Phoenix from the Ashes".
If DJ wasn't full of 89ers would your slant be that the 40% conditions disparity due the Scabs?
Better wages are sustainable at DJ.
If Perth was isolated due SARS or a couple of domestic aircraft were blown out of the sky by terrorists, job security would now mean nothing. Even with the low Virgin Blue wages.
Those are the scenarios that previously very strong airlines, who paid very strong wages, now face. Their present vulnerability has nothing to do with them not paying DJ wages!
Johnny utah
Couldn't agree more.
I can't stand the stereotyped QF long haul culture. I must add I have good friends in QF too.
But to see QF conditions come down due a poor DJ package, will not do me any good. International airlines monitor the QF package closely.
My Prediction.
Not a nice subject as judged by the personal responses.
A new wave of Australian pilots now abroad. To keep out of the dirt I will clarify and use the 150 or so former AN F/Os.
In 10 years time highly experienced and highly financial, like the 89ers before them, homeward bound they will come to a third airline,leisure airline or Australian basing for a foreign entity,who operates over the predicted open skies.
They will undercut DJ, with the same justification as the 89ers have used.
Sadly, in 10 years time DJ will probably finally have respectable conditions.
Or will DJ keep its wages down by using "Virgin Cadets" or more likely, take a leaf out of the Australian shipping industry book and use cheap Phillipino labour-in our part of the world that means New Zealanders. Not as unlikely as it seems, the New Zealand basing scenario.
In the above case another island for Godfrey(the Hauraki Gulf would be nice for a staff retreat) and another big bonus for 89ers in Virgin Blue pilot management.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 28th May 2003 at 17:09.
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Personally, I believe Ansett's wages were never the real problem. Especially as they made audited profits (refer Aministrators report to creditors) in the seven years prior to Air NZ gaining control of Ansett. Pity they couldn't keep it going longer than 18 months but, that's history.
As for VB, I'd just like to know when they are going to start making some serious inverstments in people, particularly in the area of say, heavy maintenance. Will they ever decide to actually train any maintenance staff? or will they leave that up to QF and just poach staff as they see fit. To get my vote, VB should start putting a little back into the people and long term future of the maintenance side of the industry. How about employing a few apprentices VB (albeit through Virgin Tech)?
And whilst you're at it, how about spending a little money on some spare parts of your own? (Funny how friendly Virgin can be to QF when they frequently need to borrow spares)
Then again, I guess you can't have multi-million dollar islands for the lucky few and spare parts for the aeroplanes as well now can we!
Flack jacket and helmut firmly attached.
As for VB, I'd just like to know when they are going to start making some serious inverstments in people, particularly in the area of say, heavy maintenance. Will they ever decide to actually train any maintenance staff? or will they leave that up to QF and just poach staff as they see fit. To get my vote, VB should start putting a little back into the people and long term future of the maintenance side of the industry. How about employing a few apprentices VB (albeit through Virgin Tech)?
And whilst you're at it, how about spending a little money on some spare parts of your own? (Funny how friendly Virgin can be to QF when they frequently need to borrow spares)
Then again, I guess you can't have multi-million dollar islands for the lucky few and spare parts for the aeroplanes as well now can we!
Flack jacket and helmut firmly attached.
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Hmmm,
little response to my last question. Perhaps a little too difficult to answer? Surely, somebody in the know from virgin blue would like to elighten me with a sensible response.
little response to my last question. Perhaps a little too difficult to answer? Surely, somebody in the know from virgin blue would like to elighten me with a sensible response.
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... someone in the know from virgin blue would like to enlighten me with a sensible response.
Heard on the grapevine today that a couple of LAMEs have advised CASA of their grave concern over both the lack of licence coverage in Melbourne with Virgin Tech and the extreme heavy handedness of the local manager...with the Virgin smile on his face I presume!
I hope they still have their employment after daring to
suggest that all is not roses on LaLa (is)land. Well done fellas.
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Here is a question for you Chockchucker and failedairlinelame
Did Ansett and TAA and QF have apprentice programs in the first 2-3 years of operation?
Did AN and TAA ever trade spares?
I think you will find that QF doesn't LEND DJ anything - they RENT them at what can be described as an exorbitant rate.
Apprentice training will come when the type training of experienced LAME's finishes - they are spending a ****load on training engineers on the NG - probbly not at a rate fast enough to keep everyone happy, but at least they are training people.
With regards your comments failedairlinelame CASA have NO regulatory authority over the "heavy handedness" of the Virgin Tech management - if the LAME's you mentioned are too gutless to take the management on about a real (not perceived) problem then that is tough.
With regards the lack of licence coverage I have no idea, but again I expect that CASA has no ability to force manning levels upon a company AS LONG AS THE REQUIRED WORK IS UNDERTAKEN AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.
IF that is NOT the case then the licenced engineers need to not sign for aeroplanes that they have not worked on - grounding aircraft soon focuses peoples attention.
Did Ansett and TAA and QF have apprentice programs in the first 2-3 years of operation?
Did AN and TAA ever trade spares?
I think you will find that QF doesn't LEND DJ anything - they RENT them at what can be described as an exorbitant rate.
Apprentice training will come when the type training of experienced LAME's finishes - they are spending a ****load on training engineers on the NG - probbly not at a rate fast enough to keep everyone happy, but at least they are training people.
With regards your comments failedairlinelame CASA have NO regulatory authority over the "heavy handedness" of the Virgin Tech management - if the LAME's you mentioned are too gutless to take the management on about a real (not perceived) problem then that is tough.
With regards the lack of licence coverage I have no idea, but again I expect that CASA has no ability to force manning levels upon a company AS LONG AS THE REQUIRED WORK IS UNDERTAKEN AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.
IF that is NOT the case then the licenced engineers need to not sign for aeroplanes that they have not worked on - grounding aircraft soon focuses peoples attention.
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Captain,
to answer your first question, I have no idea about TAA but I do know that Ansett (R.M.) did infact employ and train people in the maintenance side of things within three years of startup. One of them served at Ansett for over 50 years, retiring as head of the engineering division in 1990.
Then again, R.M. Ansett probably didn't get into the industry to make a quick buck, and he certainly showed a lot more genuine interest in his employees than R.B. (my opinion).
As to your second question, yes, AN and TAA/QF did freqently borrow spares from one another (for a fee). They also used to pool spares on aircraft operated by both carriers i.e. 727, 737 etc. to actually cut down on costs. Point is that they both contributed to the pool of spares. I don't see QF seeking out VB for 737NG spares very much, but there sure is plenty of VB engineers coming to see QF. Like I say, I'm sure it's O.K. to spend millions in PR friendly items like islands but, in the area of spares (and apprentices), VB is sadly lacking.
As for LAME's not willing to take on management at VB or virgin tech/jetcare,
a) most of them are too busy to even scratch themselves because VB doesn't employ enough LAME's now.
b) those that did raise some concerns whilst at jetcare, curiously missed the cut when it came time to re-apply for virgin tech. (In MEL at least)
c)Others have had a gut full of the "run on the smell of an oily rag" attitute of VB with regard to maintenance and are preparing to leave the industry (some have already).
As for "grounding aircraft soon focusing attention". Yeah, that catches people attention alright. Problem is that it also does serious damage to the people paying your wage. It isn't the burning desire of LAME's to ground aircraft and inconvienience the public at large if we can avoid it. We'd just like the time, tooling, spares and support from company execs to do our job properly if you please. Not to be continually be put under the pump to bend the rules or not have your contract renewed.
Thing is, with the right attitude, VB could do tremendous things to help develop and protect the long term future of the maintenance side of the aviation industry in this country.Employing and investing in the young people of this country (i.e. people leaving school and looking for apprenticeships) and providing them with some terrific technical skills would be just the ticket. Currently, the only employer doing this on a large scale is QF (G.A. industry also does a good job) and as long as they continue to do so they shall continue to recieve my support (and carriage). Step up VB, you can't be a start-up forever. The Ball is in your court.
However, I fear that that doesn't fit in with Branson's "extract everything out of it you can and put back as little as possible" Modus Operendi.
Maybe that could change? Probably not in the near future though.
to answer your first question, I have no idea about TAA but I do know that Ansett (R.M.) did infact employ and train people in the maintenance side of things within three years of startup. One of them served at Ansett for over 50 years, retiring as head of the engineering division in 1990.
Then again, R.M. Ansett probably didn't get into the industry to make a quick buck, and he certainly showed a lot more genuine interest in his employees than R.B. (my opinion).
As to your second question, yes, AN and TAA/QF did freqently borrow spares from one another (for a fee). They also used to pool spares on aircraft operated by both carriers i.e. 727, 737 etc. to actually cut down on costs. Point is that they both contributed to the pool of spares. I don't see QF seeking out VB for 737NG spares very much, but there sure is plenty of VB engineers coming to see QF. Like I say, I'm sure it's O.K. to spend millions in PR friendly items like islands but, in the area of spares (and apprentices), VB is sadly lacking.
As for LAME's not willing to take on management at VB or virgin tech/jetcare,
a) most of them are too busy to even scratch themselves because VB doesn't employ enough LAME's now.
b) those that did raise some concerns whilst at jetcare, curiously missed the cut when it came time to re-apply for virgin tech. (In MEL at least)
c)Others have had a gut full of the "run on the smell of an oily rag" attitute of VB with regard to maintenance and are preparing to leave the industry (some have already).
As for "grounding aircraft soon focusing attention". Yeah, that catches people attention alright. Problem is that it also does serious damage to the people paying your wage. It isn't the burning desire of LAME's to ground aircraft and inconvienience the public at large if we can avoid it. We'd just like the time, tooling, spares and support from company execs to do our job properly if you please. Not to be continually be put under the pump to bend the rules or not have your contract renewed.
Thing is, with the right attitude, VB could do tremendous things to help develop and protect the long term future of the maintenance side of the aviation industry in this country.Employing and investing in the young people of this country (i.e. people leaving school and looking for apprenticeships) and providing them with some terrific technical skills would be just the ticket. Currently, the only employer doing this on a large scale is QF (G.A. industry also does a good job) and as long as they continue to do so they shall continue to recieve my support (and carriage). Step up VB, you can't be a start-up forever. The Ball is in your court.
However, I fear that that doesn't fit in with Branson's "extract everything out of it you can and put back as little as possible" Modus Operendi.
Maybe that could change? Probably not in the near future though.
HI GNADBERGER,
ok so it seems i may have offended you with my comments, please don't take it so personally, and let's not get into the ansett-airnz argument again, people who are balanced and can see both sides know that there was fault on both sides here.
but that's all in the past now, so you do need to move on.
i spend a good deal of time in my work analysing events in the industry and looking at airnz's recent performances and the fact that qf will most likely end up with a stake in them i would be surprised if airnz is not around in 5 years time.
anyway, hope you cheer up.
ok so it seems i may have offended you with my comments, please don't take it so personally, and let's not get into the ansett-airnz argument again, people who are balanced and can see both sides know that there was fault on both sides here.
but that's all in the past now, so you do need to move on.
Sadly your country may experience the social tragedy the collapse of a large airline brings, within say five years.
anyway, hope you cheer up.
Topend3
A good tropical morning to you.
Although I didn't deliver pizza to survive, on behalf of the thousands of exAnsett who temporarily went to admirable lengths to support themselves and family, I accept your apology.
The New Zealand Bondi option beyond many
And your an Airline Industry Analyst too!
Time to move on? Professionally, always, but no need to suffer wannabe fools.
Hope the Island worth the conditions.
A good tropical morning to you.
Although I didn't deliver pizza to survive, on behalf of the thousands of exAnsett who temporarily went to admirable lengths to support themselves and family, I accept your apology.
The New Zealand Bondi option beyond many
And your an Airline Industry Analyst too!
Time to move on? Professionally, always, but no need to suffer wannabe fools.
Hope the Island worth the conditions.
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Gnadenburg,
I didn't see Topend apologise to you. Or are you reading something into it that everyone else isn't?
And who are you to accept any sort of apology on behalf of anyone except yourself? Me thinks you have an inflated opinion of yourself.
I didn't see Topend apologise to you. Or are you reading something into it that everyone else isn't?
And who are you to accept any sort of apology on behalf of anyone except yourself? Me thinks you have an inflated opinion of yourself.