Virgin Boss Buys Island For Staff.
well condratulations to the staff who would like to use it. Correct me if I am wrong but it will some time before there are any facilities there that would make it a resort as such.
Surely even the most supportiveVirgin employee's out there see this for what it is, a PR stunt.
If you don't believe that was the intention. Answer the following.
Do you think Dixon would prefer to trade the conditions of all his QF employees to the same as VB are on and buy them the biggest flashest island in Aus ?
Would the QF employees trade their conditions for VB conditions and an island with an old Queenslander on it???
Reality is you guys chose to work for VB and hopefully most enjoy it. the island thing is a PR stunt that most would trade for better conditions, but it has probably had the desired effect.
Surely even the most supportiveVirgin employee's out there see this for what it is, a PR stunt.
If you don't believe that was the intention. Answer the following.
Do you think Dixon would prefer to trade the conditions of all his QF employees to the same as VB are on and buy them the biggest flashest island in Aus ?
Would the QF employees trade their conditions for VB conditions and an island with an old Queenslander on it???
Reality is you guys chose to work for VB and hopefully most enjoy it. the island thing is a PR stunt that most would trade for better conditions, but it has probably had the desired effect.
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It is amazing how many people that do not seem to work for VB are qualified to say what the staff want and dont wont.
So who cares if it is a publicity stunt or not?
The managment at VB consider that there staff should be rewarded ,does it matter that they also may use it for staff training or not.
Why dont you knockers just get on with your own lives or does the thought of another company prospering really worry you?
So who cares if it is a publicity stunt or not?
The managment at VB consider that there staff should be rewarded ,does it matter that they also may use it for staff training or not.
Why dont you knockers just get on with your own lives or does the thought of another company prospering really worry you?
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1 week ago, VB employees' conditions were the same as they are now BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN ISLAND TO GO TO. Now they do - how can you criticise this? PR or no PR - how can this be criticised?Conditions didn't change - there was never an offer to change conditions. There is now the offer of an island.
Virgin Blue wages are everyone in the industries business. Dixon quotes their cost base and foreign airlines base their expat wages on surveys of what is on offer at home.
It is not nice to discuss what people do or don't get but the above are cold facts. Virgin Blue wages are dragging conditions down.
Yes VB is profitable, but so are the airlines who are putting pressure on their staff members' wages.
topend3 and cnsnz
The first a Kiwi and the the latter I will rudely assume. You are the Phillipinos of the South Pacific. Keep out of any debate on conditions for Australain workers.
Captn Laptop
I stated that the conditions VB offer are half of QFs, not wages.
Let me elaborate.
VB F/O conditions. Lets assume a young pilot out of GA.
69K a year-QF F/O by Dixons admission 30% more. I would say 35% more!
The other 15% to drag it down in terms of conditions as follows:
Borrow money for endorsement. Airfares and accomadation while doing the endorsement-compared to QF where you are on the payrole.
No simulator-QF 737 F/Os have access to a simulator at no cost. This not to be underestimated as part of a professional package. There is a lack of investment in training by VB.
Crew sanwiches-QF have access to crew meals and business class food. The cost here of not buying your lunch at the airport significant.
Superannuation-QF get better because of higher base wage.
Bonuses. Case of 40$ wine-versus QF shares.
VB pax down the back-QF pax up the front.
VB Rostering problematic-QF better.
Staff travel-QF has an international network to better VB.
As a total package Virgin Blue is about half.
The QF F/Os package management like, the VB package workmen like.
And it is our business because other peoples wages/conditions are now being based/compared to the above.
It is not nice to discuss what people do or don't get but the above are cold facts. Virgin Blue wages are dragging conditions down.
Yes VB is profitable, but so are the airlines who are putting pressure on their staff members' wages.
topend3 and cnsnz
The first a Kiwi and the the latter I will rudely assume. You are the Phillipinos of the South Pacific. Keep out of any debate on conditions for Australain workers.
Captn Laptop
I stated that the conditions VB offer are half of QFs, not wages.
Let me elaborate.
VB F/O conditions. Lets assume a young pilot out of GA.
69K a year-QF F/O by Dixons admission 30% more. I would say 35% more!
The other 15% to drag it down in terms of conditions as follows:
Borrow money for endorsement. Airfares and accomadation while doing the endorsement-compared to QF where you are on the payrole.
No simulator-QF 737 F/Os have access to a simulator at no cost. This not to be underestimated as part of a professional package. There is a lack of investment in training by VB.
Crew sanwiches-QF have access to crew meals and business class food. The cost here of not buying your lunch at the airport significant.
Superannuation-QF get better because of higher base wage.
Bonuses. Case of 40$ wine-versus QF shares.
VB pax down the back-QF pax up the front.
VB Rostering problematic-QF better.
Staff travel-QF has an international network to better VB.
As a total package Virgin Blue is about half.
The QF F/Os package management like, the VB package workmen like.
And it is our business because other peoples wages/conditions are now being based/compared to the above.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 20th May 2003 at 17:17.
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topend3, I was an AN 737 FO, now one with QF. The wages are slightly lower at QF but not that much. QF flight attendants actually earn more than AN ones. Virgin don't have to support hangars, their training costs are substantially lower, they have a one aircraft type fleet to support, they don't have kitchens and catering, they don't run buses around their base as it is not big enough too, they don't have their own simulators and support staff etc. So can you substantiate for me why you think AN's wages were unsustainable?
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Gnadenburg,
You quote the base salary without the retention bonus which for skippers is 15000 a year. Sure F/O's are on a percentage of that.
We get crew meals.
Borrow money for endorsement - yes, BUT Virgin F/O's are on full pay from day one even during ground and line training. QF pilots are on PUIT pay for a period of time....so some (admittedly not all) of your endorsement cost is recouped by not being on training pay.
Super - Ok, but what is the QF F/O's base?
No Simulator - well not yet - there is a sim centre being built in Brisbane - but you can hardly add that into the salary package - that is like saying that we get hours on the 737, so lets factor that into the salary at say $3 grand an hour...I understand your point, but disagree that it is a salary issue.
Rostering - yes problems, but being fixed albeit slowly
Case of $40 wine - well mine wan't a 40 dollar case - I got quite a nice gift set and a picnic set thingie which would not have been particularly cheap
Duty travel - you got me there...
Staff travel - we have a good deal with Virgin Atlantic and a bette eal with express. We also get dseals with others.
Overall not too bad - and only a benefit if you travel a lot overseas. For domestic travel it is much the same as QF..
All in all, the VB package is below that offered by QF. BUT you don't have to ride around as a 2 striped passenger for years, commands are quicker - again clawing some of the endorsement money back, and it is a different style of operation.
Do I want more money - hell yes, but all things being equal I don't think that I'm being hard done by - a brain surgeon, or other very learned medico makes about what I do as a Virgin skipper. Do I reckon that my skill set matches theirs - wll in some regards yes, and some no. I certainly don't work as hard or as long as they do
Ultimately the salary people can justify is determined by the earning capacity of the aeroplane they fly. the bigger it is the more they can expect to draw from that aeroplane.
The 737 isn't a huge aeroplane and the salary I receive is not unreasonable for the work I do.
You quote the base salary without the retention bonus which for skippers is 15000 a year. Sure F/O's are on a percentage of that.
We get crew meals.
Borrow money for endorsement - yes, BUT Virgin F/O's are on full pay from day one even during ground and line training. QF pilots are on PUIT pay for a period of time....so some (admittedly not all) of your endorsement cost is recouped by not being on training pay.
Super - Ok, but what is the QF F/O's base?
No Simulator - well not yet - there is a sim centre being built in Brisbane - but you can hardly add that into the salary package - that is like saying that we get hours on the 737, so lets factor that into the salary at say $3 grand an hour...I understand your point, but disagree that it is a salary issue.
Rostering - yes problems, but being fixed albeit slowly
Case of $40 wine - well mine wan't a 40 dollar case - I got quite a nice gift set and a picnic set thingie which would not have been particularly cheap
Duty travel - you got me there...
Staff travel - we have a good deal with Virgin Atlantic and a bette eal with express. We also get dseals with others.
Overall not too bad - and only a benefit if you travel a lot overseas. For domestic travel it is much the same as QF..
All in all, the VB package is below that offered by QF. BUT you don't have to ride around as a 2 striped passenger for years, commands are quicker - again clawing some of the endorsement money back, and it is a different style of operation.
Do I want more money - hell yes, but all things being equal I don't think that I'm being hard done by - a brain surgeon, or other very learned medico makes about what I do as a Virgin skipper. Do I reckon that my skill set matches theirs - wll in some regards yes, and some no. I certainly don't work as hard or as long as they do
Ultimately the salary people can justify is determined by the earning capacity of the aeroplane they fly. the bigger it is the more they can expect to draw from that aeroplane.
The 737 isn't a huge aeroplane and the salary I receive is not unreasonable for the work I do.
Swingwing...
Tropical Island? My childhood memories of that part of the Noosa River are mudflats and mangroves...which stink like s*it when the tide goes out! Good fishing though!
Those DJ hosties in bikinis makes it sound a lot more appealing however...maybe their next photo shoot can be done there - fishing rods and VBs in hand?
TL
Is anyone else finding it difficult to get past the mental image of a tropical island full of bikini-wearing DJ hosties??
Those DJ hosties in bikinis makes it sound a lot more appealing however...maybe their next photo shoot can be done there - fishing rods and VBs in hand?
TL
Laptop
Virgin pay for brain surgeons? Wouldn't want to be on that operating table. You get what you pay for remember.
Every one of your points debatable.
We are comparing 737 conditions.( remembering the S/O does get an opportunity to be a 747 Capt eventually but irrelevant to our comparison).
I believe the difference in conditions rounded down to 50% less than QF, you seem to round up to Dixon's mentioned 30%.
How about we meet at 40%!
That is significant and hope you understand the "dragging the rest of us down" concern in the industry.
As mentioned earlier, though not polite to talk about your conditions, they do affect us all.
What about a QF 747 Capt. A 300k package? If Virgin Blue goes international in a serious way, I bet command of the international flagship will be a 180K package ie: 40% less than QF. That is if Virgin Atlantic doesn't crew.
Godfrey doesn't wear a tie and pretends to be an egalatarian style manager . But with cheap wine and a staff island as lubricant, bends you over as good as anyone!
Virgin pay for brain surgeons? Wouldn't want to be on that operating table. You get what you pay for remember.
Every one of your points debatable.
We are comparing 737 conditions.( remembering the S/O does get an opportunity to be a 747 Capt eventually but irrelevant to our comparison).
I believe the difference in conditions rounded down to 50% less than QF, you seem to round up to Dixon's mentioned 30%.
How about we meet at 40%!
That is significant and hope you understand the "dragging the rest of us down" concern in the industry.
As mentioned earlier, though not polite to talk about your conditions, they do affect us all.
What about a QF 747 Capt. A 300k package? If Virgin Blue goes international in a serious way, I bet command of the international flagship will be a 180K package ie: 40% less than QF. That is if Virgin Atlantic doesn't crew.
Godfrey doesn't wear a tie and pretends to be an egalatarian style manager . But with cheap wine and a staff island as lubricant, bends you over as good as anyone!
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Gnadenberg,
You need to get out into the real world, where people feed 3 kids and pay off a house and a car on 35 grand a year.
Yes QF pilots get well paid, but the point I am making is that the Virgin people get a reasonable wage as well -not brilliant - but reasonable.
To vilify the pilots who fly for Virgin and say that THEY (as individuals) are eroding the industry norm is unreasonable.
The QF guys and gals can mount the case that they are quantifiably better aviators than us Virgin pilots and they deserve the extra money that they currently get.
Us mediocre types will stick with our handfulls of shells and fly the little red aeroplanes....
You need to get out into the real world, where people feed 3 kids and pay off a house and a car on 35 grand a year.
Yes QF pilots get well paid, but the point I am making is that the Virgin people get a reasonable wage as well -not brilliant - but reasonable.
To vilify the pilots who fly for Virgin and say that THEY (as individuals) are eroding the industry norm is unreasonable.
The QF guys and gals can mount the case that they are quantifiably better aviators than us Virgin pilots and they deserve the extra money that they currently get.
Us mediocre types will stick with our handfulls of shells and fly the little red aeroplanes....
SIR Richard Branson may have bought a dud
Article in today's Hun believes that zoning restrictions may prevent development on the island 
Evertonian
"It's not for a cast of thousands, just for staff to use from time to time."
And there were serious concerns about effluent and waste water disposal because part of the island flooded during heavy rain.
The spokesman said Sir Richard would put a proposal to council and if they did not like it, he would try something else.
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Gnadenberg
I thought this was an open forum?
You do not know where I work or whom I work for and for your information I have worked in Aus and who knows maybe I will again.
You blame VB for bringing down your conditions every airline to be viable has to have sustainable costs Vb have set theirs at a level they believed they required to make a sucessful entry into the australian market and the staff have agreed to it otherwise they would not be flying today.
Your organisation realises that in order for it to remain dominate and competitve it will need to bring its costs closer to its main competitor to ensure your future employment which I think would be fairly common practise to alot of businesses.
You control your future if you dont want to accept managements restructuring/cost cutting to ensure your future employment then maybe you shouldn't stay there
I thought this was an open forum?
You do not know where I work or whom I work for and for your information I have worked in Aus and who knows maybe I will again.
You blame VB for bringing down your conditions every airline to be viable has to have sustainable costs Vb have set theirs at a level they believed they required to make a sucessful entry into the australian market and the staff have agreed to it otherwise they would not be flying today.
Your organisation realises that in order for it to remain dominate and competitve it will need to bring its costs closer to its main competitor to ensure your future employment which I think would be fairly common practise to alot of businesses.
You control your future if you dont want to accept managements restructuring/cost cutting to ensure your future employment then maybe you shouldn't stay there
Captn Laptop
You are taking issues personally. Let's disassociate emotionally otherwise we will chase tails.
Your reference the "real world" simplistic. We are not comparing your wage to average wage of workers. We are comparing it as a 40% reduction in conditions to that of other 737 pilots in Australia.
The issues again.
1. Virgin Blue doesn't advertise. It has an effective publicity machine. It moans and groans and will do anything for publicity or attention.
2 It's conditions are about 60% of current and former competitors.
3 Airlines such as QF,SQ,EK,CX and many others not even associated with the region have extensive professional package surveys. They look closely at Virgin Blue salaries, keeping in mind Australia is close to the greatest exporter of professional pilots!
4 The Virgin management team headed by Godfrey adopt an egalatarian approach. No ties, load the bags on occassion, put a few beers on for the boys, Christmas presents etc etc.
In light of the above, Godfrey makes a million on an island, that the grating Virgin Blue publicity team describe as a staff retreat, while paying poor wages and pretending to be new age leader and having much more interest in his staff than say, the demonised Geoff Dixon.
What you accept is not my business I hear. Refer again point 3.
Godfrey a sodomiser of airline employees. That he kisses you first with the help of his publicity team makes no difference.
And you watch the bubble heads try and vote him Australain The Year.
You are taking issues personally. Let's disassociate emotionally otherwise we will chase tails.
Your reference the "real world" simplistic. We are not comparing your wage to average wage of workers. We are comparing it as a 40% reduction in conditions to that of other 737 pilots in Australia.
The issues again.
1. Virgin Blue doesn't advertise. It has an effective publicity machine. It moans and groans and will do anything for publicity or attention.
2 It's conditions are about 60% of current and former competitors.
3 Airlines such as QF,SQ,EK,CX and many others not even associated with the region have extensive professional package surveys. They look closely at Virgin Blue salaries, keeping in mind Australia is close to the greatest exporter of professional pilots!
4 The Virgin management team headed by Godfrey adopt an egalatarian approach. No ties, load the bags on occassion, put a few beers on for the boys, Christmas presents etc etc.
In light of the above, Godfrey makes a million on an island, that the grating Virgin Blue publicity team describe as a staff retreat, while paying poor wages and pretending to be new age leader and having much more interest in his staff than say, the demonised Geoff Dixon.
What you accept is not my business I hear. Refer again point 3.
Godfrey a sodomiser of airline employees. That he kisses you first with the help of his publicity team makes no difference.
And you watch the bubble heads try and vote him Australain The Year.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 21st May 2003 at 19:26.
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I am sitting here watching the TV and what do I see - a Virgin Blue ad. I open my newspaper and see Virgin Blue ads. Apparently they do advertise and the moaning is usually related to them being screwed compared to QF. You would moan if the airport authority charged one user a certain fee and wanted to charge you three times more.
The new VB EBA for ground staff shows wages are almost the same as QF. One difference is the jobs are permanent full time, not part time on a six month contract.
The new VB EBA for ground staff shows wages are almost the same as QF. One difference is the jobs are permanent full time, not part time on a six month contract.
Evertonian
Good luck to the DJ groundstaff then! Perhaps some "normality" might return to the industry & make it viable for the employees.
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Some things never change here. 
This was just a post about Richard Branson buying an island for his staff, yet even that turns into the normal slanging match.
This was just a post about Richard Branson buying an island for his staff, yet even that turns into the normal slanging match.
EPIRB -
6 loaders on a 737 each on $60k - unsustainable
Gnadenburg -
I'm an Australian citizen, lived in this country for 17 years and pay taxes and work as hard as the next person, i do have the right to comment on australian pay and conditions and the fate of ansett!
6 loaders on a 737 each on $60k - unsustainable
Gnadenburg -
I'm an Australian citizen, lived in this country for 17 years and pay taxes and work as hard as the next person, i do have the right to comment on australian pay and conditions and the fate of ansett!