Vigin blue International
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Off-shore? Not so sure!
Call me cycical if you wish but I betcha any announcement says in effect that DJ will confine itself to being a (poor) domestic Australian carrier so that they can continue to cherry pick and guarantee that they will make money. They wouldn't dare go off-shore where it's evryone for himself with very rugged competition, something that Virgin Blue has yet to face.
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To Don Esson
Economics 101..."Cherry Picking" is how you make money and build jobs. Mindless growth in the name of company pride or buying big jets to feel big (e.f. QF 380 order or the Ansett 747 operation as a whole) is how to lose money. I don't work for VB but I sure admire the way they've given lots of jobs out to guys and girls who might never have made the artificially inflated grade at Ratair. Profitable airlines are good for jobs. Ego driven expansion costs jobs. Financially responsible expansion keeps jobs safe.
As for "rugged international competition"!!!!!
You mean scads of cosy bilaterals, mini two airline policies don't you?
Anyway, safe flying wherever you are
Economics 101..."Cherry Picking" is how you make money and build jobs. Mindless growth in the name of company pride or buying big jets to feel big (e.f. QF 380 order or the Ansett 747 operation as a whole) is how to lose money. I don't work for VB but I sure admire the way they've given lots of jobs out to guys and girls who might never have made the artificially inflated grade at Ratair. Profitable airlines are good for jobs. Ego driven expansion costs jobs. Financially responsible expansion keeps jobs safe.
As for "rugged international competition"!!!!!
You mean scads of cosy bilaterals, mini two airline policies don't you?
Anyway, safe flying wherever you are
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aust
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Elektra, do you really think QF embarked on a fleet rationalisation program for ego? Do you really think it was forced by the need to feel "bigger"? I'm sure the management team at QF can remember some lectures from "Economics 101" and I'm pretty sure they would have factored some form of financial modelling into their decisions.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Brand name?
I think you'll find that in the deal struck with SQ when SQ bought half of VS, the Virgin Group has committed that only Virgin Atlantic can use the Virgin brand on international routes. Therefore look to a new name, with no "Virgin" involved, even if it is in reality the same airline (think Qantas and Australia-Asia Airways)
As for money-making routes, I think you'll find there are many monopolistic routes ex Australia to the Pacific with high fares. No reason why Virgin can't make a killing, particularly if they're popular holiday destinations (just like OOL routes in oz)
I think you'll find that in the deal struck with SQ when SQ bought half of VS, the Virgin Group has committed that only Virgin Atlantic can use the Virgin brand on international routes. Therefore look to a new name, with no "Virgin" involved, even if it is in reality the same airline (think Qantas and Australia-Asia Airways)
As for money-making routes, I think you'll find there are many monopolistic routes ex Australia to the Pacific with high fares. No reason why Virgin can't make a killing, particularly if they're popular holiday destinations (just like OOL routes in oz)
elektra - I think you might be just a tad misguided with some of your comments . Qantas has hardly "been buying big jets to feel big" especially with reference to ordering A380s. Perhaps you should go back & have a look at the other airlines that have ordered A380s - many of them are direct competitors to Qantas, and plan on operating these aircraft over the same routes in direct competition with Qantas. It would hardly make sense to idly sit by, flying older aircraft & thereby missing out on the gains in efficiencies to be made by operating a new, larger type with greatly increased payload at similar operating costs. That would not make sense economically, and is most likely the reason that Qantas have ordered these aircraft.
Given the current depressed state of the global aviation market, Qantas is steadily & cautiously taking advantage of the current situation to bolster its position in the market - that sounds like good business sense to me.
On another point - apparently it is acceptable for Virgin to 'cherry pick' routes etc (because "'Cherry Picking' is how you make money and build jobs..." ) but in the very same breath it is NOT ok for Qantas to (effectively) 'Cherry Pick' their pilots?
After all, while there is an oversupply of qualified pilots, Qantas have the right to do just that, in exactly the same way that the RAAF, Cathay, Singapore & every other airline around the world does.
At the end of the day, they set the standards & can pick & choose who they like. In some peoples eyes the grade may be 'artificially inflated' at QF, but relative to what - the virgin 'half hour/45 min get to know you' interview process? That is hardly the world standard, and relative to most other processes, seems to be relatively brief & shallow in depth...
In regards to your comments that 'ego driven expansion costs jobs' - how does this relate to Virgins proposed overseas expansion? I'm sure that having Virgin touted as Australia's 'true blue international airline' will do wonders for the major stakeholders when the shares are floated - let's hope it works out just as well for the rest of the employees.
I guess at the end of the day we'll just have to agree to disagree...
Given the current depressed state of the global aviation market, Qantas is steadily & cautiously taking advantage of the current situation to bolster its position in the market - that sounds like good business sense to me.
On another point - apparently it is acceptable for Virgin to 'cherry pick' routes etc (because "'Cherry Picking' is how you make money and build jobs..." ) but in the very same breath it is NOT ok for Qantas to (effectively) 'Cherry Pick' their pilots?
After all, while there is an oversupply of qualified pilots, Qantas have the right to do just that, in exactly the same way that the RAAF, Cathay, Singapore & every other airline around the world does. At the end of the day, they set the standards & can pick & choose who they like. In some peoples eyes the grade may be 'artificially inflated' at QF, but relative to what - the virgin 'half hour/45 min get to know you' interview process? That is hardly the world standard, and relative to most other processes, seems to be relatively brief & shallow in depth...
In regards to your comments that 'ego driven expansion costs jobs' - how does this relate to Virgins proposed overseas expansion? I'm sure that having Virgin touted as Australia's 'true blue international airline' will do wonders for the major stakeholders when the shares are floated - let's hope it works out just as well for the rest of the employees.
I guess at the end of the day we'll just have to agree to disagree...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisvegas
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Johnny some interesting points. In regard to your "world standard" remark I have to ask, what world standard? Virgins process is brief and shallow in depth compared to what? If you are refering to the psyco-babble exercises some airlines partake in I believe you are ill informed. These so called paragons of excellence are many times the same airlines involved many of the worlds better known mishaps/disasters. So I guess it is fair to say all these psyc tests are irrelevant, baseless and without foundation!
Do you have a precedent or any substantiated facts to support your comments. I am not aware of any! I believe having these hybrid (genetically mutated psyco babble)champions does not in any way nurture or build a better airline operating philosophy and culture. In fact the reverse can be said to take place. Instead of a safe open and engaging culture as we generally have here in Virgin, you can end up with the anal retentive, ego driven mono culture evident in other airlines. I know which is safer and I definately know which culture I prefer to work in. Simulator sessions operated by people who know what they are doing will sort out the pretenders. A suit out of university has little or no idea what is required in this industry. The facts speak for themselves!
With regard to international ops, I think New Zealand will be the first option until things settle down up North.
Do you have a precedent or any substantiated facts to support your comments. I am not aware of any! I believe having these hybrid (genetically mutated psyco babble)champions does not in any way nurture or build a better airline operating philosophy and culture. In fact the reverse can be said to take place. Instead of a safe open and engaging culture as we generally have here in Virgin, you can end up with the anal retentive, ego driven mono culture evident in other airlines. I know which is safer and I definately know which culture I prefer to work in. Simulator sessions operated by people who know what they are doing will sort out the pretenders. A suit out of university has little or no idea what is required in this industry. The facts speak for themselves!
With regard to international ops, I think New Zealand will be the first option until things settle down up North.
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Recently heard a rumour that Virgin were to lose up to 10 engineers, 8 in Melb and 2 in Brisvegas.
Whilst acknowledging that it is only a rumour, it flies in the face of more aircraft, as I understood one of the factors delaying the acquisition of more aircraft, was a shortage of gingerbeers.
Whilst acknowledging that it is only a rumour, it flies in the face of more aircraft, as I understood one of the factors delaying the acquisition of more aircraft, was a shortage of gingerbeers.
elektra - perhaps my use of the phrase 'world standard' was a little misplaced. What I was alluding to was the brevity of the Virgin interview process. Since you've asked for interview processes that are comparably longer, how about these:
Qantas
Cathay Pacific
Emirates
Singapore
British Airways
all of the worlds air forces
(to name just a few...)
I think that you would be hard pressed to justify your statement that "...all these psych tests are irrelevant, baseless and without foundation" unless you had some sort of psychological training. You are more than entitled to your opinion, but if all of these testsare so obviosuly non relevant, why do airlines continue to do them? After all, it is obviously much cheaper to take the virgin approach & get things over & done in half an hour or so. If Virgin are quite happy with the results of their recruitment process, then all the better for them. From all reports, many airlines with longer processes would seem to be happy with theirs too. It will be interesting to see if the interview process changes much over time as the company grows large enough so that it can't rely on recommendations from mates for new hires. While it has (reportedly)worked reasonably well up to know, I can't imagine that it can do so indefinitely.
I don't have any substantiated facts to support my argument, as psychological testing isn't my chosen field. Having said that, do you have any to offer in return? To assert that any one 'culture' is safer than another is a bit of a sweeping generalisation - I'm sure you'll find that all operators, from the worlds airforces down to GA operators around the globe, of all different cultures, will continue to have accidents & incidents, regardless of where their 'culture' lies on the spectrum.
At the end of the day, it sounds as though you're happy where you are, and I'm more than happy where I am. We obviously come from different schools of thought on this issue - on that we can agree.
International operations to New Zealand will no doubt take place. It will be interesting to see what sort of trade offs Virgin earn as a result of their protests over the Qantas/Air New Zealand tie up - particularly in regards to tax exemptions etc from the NZ government. However, I can hardly see Virgin expanding much further north than Port Moresby or Bali - not in the face of competition within the region from Singapore, Cathay, Malaysian, DragonAir etc. Plus they might have to move even further away from their low cost base model - with interesting results...
Qantas
Cathay Pacific
Emirates
Singapore
British Airways
all of the worlds air forces
(to name just a few...)
I think that you would be hard pressed to justify your statement that "...all these psych tests are irrelevant, baseless and without foundation" unless you had some sort of psychological training. You are more than entitled to your opinion, but if all of these testsare so obviosuly non relevant, why do airlines continue to do them? After all, it is obviously much cheaper to take the virgin approach & get things over & done in half an hour or so. If Virgin are quite happy with the results of their recruitment process, then all the better for them. From all reports, many airlines with longer processes would seem to be happy with theirs too. It will be interesting to see if the interview process changes much over time as the company grows large enough so that it can't rely on recommendations from mates for new hires. While it has (reportedly)worked reasonably well up to know, I can't imagine that it can do so indefinitely.
I don't have any substantiated facts to support my argument, as psychological testing isn't my chosen field. Having said that, do you have any to offer in return? To assert that any one 'culture' is safer than another is a bit of a sweeping generalisation - I'm sure you'll find that all operators, from the worlds airforces down to GA operators around the globe, of all different cultures, will continue to have accidents & incidents, regardless of where their 'culture' lies on the spectrum.
At the end of the day, it sounds as though you're happy where you are, and I'm more than happy where I am. We obviously come from different schools of thought on this issue - on that we can agree.
International operations to New Zealand will no doubt take place. It will be interesting to see what sort of trade offs Virgin earn as a result of their protests over the Qantas/Air New Zealand tie up - particularly in regards to tax exemptions etc from the NZ government. However, I can hardly see Virgin expanding much further north than Port Moresby or Bali - not in the face of competition within the region from Singapore, Cathay, Malaysian, DragonAir etc. Plus they might have to move even further away from their low cost base model - with interesting results...
Join Date: Oct 2002
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lets just be honest and say what we really think:
qantas has an over inflated checking department (called a training department) with no training ability whatsover (qantas is about legal arse covering), and virgin has no training at all....
6 of 1, half a dozen of the other really..... as for world's best practice, does either company even aspire to it (cause CASA does nothing to make them do it)?
(now to put on my thermo-nuclear bullet proof osam bin proof suit)
qantas has an over inflated checking department (called a training department) with no training ability whatsover (qantas is about legal arse covering), and virgin has no training at all....
6 of 1, half a dozen of the other really..... as for world's best practice, does either company even aspire to it (cause CASA does nothing to make them do it)?
(now to put on my thermo-nuclear bullet proof osam bin proof suit)
Join Date: Apr 2002
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How about the guys who were flying the rat's 73's on contract only to be told they didn't fit the psychological profile cause they bombed the tests?
Similarly there were a few who didn't have yr12 English who's application couldn't be processed any further.
The tests are just a culling tool that the large carriers use due to the number of people applying. It does not (I believe) nor would any process guarantee you getting the best people. However it does keep the missus in a job.
Anyway, give QF a break. After all they did invent Aviaton and we all just fly in their airspace
Similarly there were a few who didn't have yr12 English who's application couldn't be processed any further.
The tests are just a culling tool that the large carriers use due to the number of people applying. It does not (I believe) nor would any process guarantee you getting the best people. However it does keep the missus in a job.
Anyway, give QF a break. After all they did invent Aviaton and we all just fly in their airspace
Join Date: Jul 2002
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You make me laugh, when are you all going to undertand that flying does not require a huge amount of intelligence (performing heart surgery, brokering large company mergers, inventing someting of importance such as the telephone or penecilin) or even for that confused individual, the aeroplane (Orvil and Wilber Wright actually invented flying). Airline interviews do differ in their content, because they are looking for the right person to fit into their company culture (they know you can fly already) what they are looking for is what is different. Some want nerds and maybe the occassional pilot who has crashed an aircraft (we know which airline that is), our asian counterparts and midle eastern friends are looking for a more refined gentlmen with a back ground for lateral thinking and quite frankly, Wollies and nerds need not apply. As for VB, they are looking for people with good flying experience (good single pilot time in turbine A/C, good two crew time in regional A/C), in other words, pilots that are going to handle an ungrade well because of their experience (not pilots with good space cadet testing scores and 1000hrs in the CCT).
As for those that live with a false sense of sercurity, airlines all have a set time line, some longer than others, yet the only airline in the States to post a profit for the last thirty years is SouthWest airlines (a low budget airline, funny that), time to wake up and smell the roses guys and maybe go and get some good turbine time and achieve an ATPL the hard way, because you never know when you might need it. I have been through the QF, CX and VB process, and i can honestly say that you can get alot out of someone by talking to them for one hour than not talking to them at all (QF first stage). At the end of the day aircraft were designed to be flown, its not rocket science.
As for those that live with a false sense of sercurity, airlines all have a set time line, some longer than others, yet the only airline in the States to post a profit for the last thirty years is SouthWest airlines (a low budget airline, funny that), time to wake up and smell the roses guys and maybe go and get some good turbine time and achieve an ATPL the hard way, because you never know when you might need it. I have been through the QF, CX and VB process, and i can honestly say that you can get alot out of someone by talking to them for one hour than not talking to them at all (QF first stage). At the end of the day aircraft were designed to be flown, its not rocket science.