SQ286 return to AKL with tail strike damage.
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I eagerly await the report on this incident. I just hope it doesn't suffer the sanitising effect of the 'Singapore factor' that appeared to permeate the SQ006 at TPE report.
gaunty, Reason will need more than a kilo of cheese to demonstrate this one, my guess is he will need to buy a years production of 'your frund in the frudge'.
Disco Stu
gaunty, Reason will need more than a kilo of cheese to demonstrate this one, my guess is he will need to buy a years production of 'your frund in the frudge'.
Disco Stu
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I did watch the entire takeoff, from the vantage point of taxiway C1.
I don't think you'll find flap setting was a contributing factor, I'[m not a jet jockey but the amount of flap they had set, looked the same from the outside as any other 747.
Windshear wouldn't have had anything to do with it either, surface w/v at the time was a gentle southerly about 10 kts, not even any convection to bump things about.
In fact everything looked normal until the rotate, I thought they'd lost an engine because of the bloody great cloud of smoke that came up.
As previously pointed out, the first turn onto finals put them ridiculously through the centreline, probably a good half mile to the right at about a mile distance and stupidly high, they went around back towards Weymouth and came back for the second attempt, still right of centreline from the finals turn, high and bloody fast and obviously heavy, the wings were fully bowed upwards, and they landed just about abeam A3 with a almighty crunch of tyres. I wouldnt want to speculate on descent rates at touchdown etc, but they were definitely high crossing the threshold and it was far from the softest or sweetest landing I've ever seen.
Me thinks there'll be a couple of job vacancies at SQ this morning
I don't think you'll find flap setting was a contributing factor, I'[m not a jet jockey but the amount of flap they had set, looked the same from the outside as any other 747.
Windshear wouldn't have had anything to do with it either, surface w/v at the time was a gentle southerly about 10 kts, not even any convection to bump things about.
In fact everything looked normal until the rotate, I thought they'd lost an engine because of the bloody great cloud of smoke that came up.
As previously pointed out, the first turn onto finals put them ridiculously through the centreline, probably a good half mile to the right at about a mile distance and stupidly high, they went around back towards Weymouth and came back for the second attempt, still right of centreline from the finals turn, high and bloody fast and obviously heavy, the wings were fully bowed upwards, and they landed just about abeam A3 with a almighty crunch of tyres. I wouldnt want to speculate on descent rates at touchdown etc, but they were definitely high crossing the threshold and it was far from the softest or sweetest landing I've ever seen.
Me thinks there'll be a couple of job vacancies at SQ this morning
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the wings were fully bowed upwards
How did they do THAT???
they were definitely high crossing the threshold
What is the crossing height of a Jumbo at the threshold Lukey?
From what I have heard, Asian carriers are woefull at conducting Visual and Circling Approaches
Their seems to be a lot of armchair experts hear who no nothing but are happy to speculat with rediculous theories.
How about it might just of been pilot error caused by too fast, or over-rotation like the scrape they had in Los Angels years back!
And who or wot is meant by peter Clark. He is a cook is'nt he?
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CC
===============================================
From what I have heard, Asian carriers are woefull at
conducting Visual and Circling Approaches. An ILS would
have been the safest approach for their return.
================================================
You mean woefull as in speling?
I think you will find that many Asian carriers have a highly developed skill level for circling approaches. Before making such a demeaning generalisation, may I suggest you visit Japan and watch 747's and 777s doing circling approaches at mimimums into 2,500m strips. Every second approach into these airports is a circling approach given the fact most domestic airports back into serious terrain.
Finally, I would be very interested to learn how to execute a stabilised ILS approach at 100t over MLW without re-calibrating the glideslope.
===============================================
From what I have heard, Asian carriers are woefull at
conducting Visual and Circling Approaches. An ILS would
have been the safest approach for their return.
================================================
You mean woefull as in speling?
I think you will find that many Asian carriers have a highly developed skill level for circling approaches. Before making such a demeaning generalisation, may I suggest you visit Japan and watch 747's and 777s doing circling approaches at mimimums into 2,500m strips. Every second approach into these airports is a circling approach given the fact most domestic airports back into serious terrain.
Finally, I would be very interested to learn how to execute a stabilised ILS approach at 100t over MLW without re-calibrating the glideslope.
Last edited by Traffic; 13th Mar 2003 at 07:25.
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Traffic,
Perhaps I'm having a vague day but I can't work out why the glide slope would have to be recalibrated to facilitate a stabilised approach, overweight landing.
Could you help me out please?
Could you help me out please?
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I, like Claret, must be having a senior moment (I assume too much there I guess - sorry Claret). I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why the Glide Slope needs a recal for an overweight landing. Maybe I am just too old for this job and should go and fish or something.
Look this was a major problem that mercifully resulted in nothing more serious than a few ruined underpants (in the cockpit) and a badly damaged airplane. The investigation team has the crew and the aircraft and the recorders. All will become clear very soon. Why not wait and see ?
DG
Look this was a major problem that mercifully resulted in nothing more serious than a few ruined underpants (in the cockpit) and a badly damaged airplane. The investigation team has the crew and the aircraft and the recorders. All will become clear very soon. Why not wait and see ?
DG
Nunc est bibendum
I 'think' traffic may be referring to 1000' fpm as a 'stabilised approach' so yeah, a 330-350 tonne 744 would need greater than that to touchdown. However, I think most airlines have a caveat for a 'stabilised approach' that talks about speed, thrust, V/S 'appropriate' for the conditions. I'd say they'd just be accepting the rate of descent.
That said though, you'd reckon that you'd give yourself as long as possible to get it 'stable', not trying to turn final at 2-3 mile. I wasn't there but my gut suggest that we slow things down a tad and ask for at LEAST 5 miles and probably closer to 8-10!
That said though, you'd reckon that you'd give yourself as long as possible to get it 'stable', not trying to turn final at 2-3 mile. I wasn't there but my gut suggest that we slow things down a tad and ask for at LEAST 5 miles and probably closer to 8-10!
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Clearance,you've obviously"heard" crap!However I do have a couple of questions from the eye witnesses,what was his circuit height after the go-around and what distance did he turn finals?
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Keg He elected not to dump fuel, (we are told), because he had a fire warning and was,(we can assume), planning an expeditious return, so, possibly, a 'fully stabilized at 5 miles' may not have been part of his planning? We were not there.
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No it is me that is having the senior moment....guess what I was trying to say ( not very clearly) to CC who glibly suggested an ILS approach is that at that the higher speeds required and the urgency of the arrival, a textbook setup on the glideslope would be unlikely. My guess is that accepting the ROD you get from a very tight circuit at the speed and weight would be unlikely to give you 3 degrees unless you had practised it 10 times the day before in the sim.
The report should be interesting reading so I shall refrain from more senior moments and, in the pursuit of clarity, have some claret myself.
The report should be interesting reading so I shall refrain from more senior moments and, in the pursuit of clarity, have some claret myself.
Bottums Up
Postulating
I wasn't there, didn't see it, didn't have to make any of the decisions, don't know what facilities were available and in no way cast aspersions against the crew involved.
Having made the disclaimer, based only on the information in this thread, factual or not, it seems that one of the assumptions that can be made is that when in a hurry, don't.
Perhaps a wide circuit, followed by an ILS would have led to a landing on the first approach. Remember the old addage, more haste less speed
Now I just hope that when it all hits the fan for me, I remember my own assumptions!
Dibble&Grub, not assuming too mush at all old bean. One tries to become senior gracefully.
Having made the disclaimer, based only on the information in this thread, factual or not, it seems that one of the assumptions that can be made is that when in a hurry, don't.
Perhaps a wide circuit, followed by an ILS would have led to a landing on the first approach. Remember the old addage, more haste less speed
Now I just hope that when it all hits the fan for me, I remember my own assumptions!
Dibble&Grub, not assuming too mush at all old bean. One tries to become senior gracefully.
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Well Dexter I may only be a humble GA pilot but there's no need to get supercilious, I'm just reporting what I saw.
The wings were indeed noticeably bowed upwards as I imagine all 747's tend to be when they're full up. One of the air ambulance boys took a couple photos of it on short finals, I'll see if I can get him to post them perhaps.
Secondly, one would have to check the calibration of the VASIs but assuming they're set for 747 pilot eye height then they're supposed to be 47 or 48' crossing the threshold, I have spent enough time sitting about on the C1 apron to have a vague idea what that looks like from outside, and to me they were maybe 30 or 40' higher than they should have been at the threshold, they touched down maybe a couple of hundred yards past A3 which would confirm that supposition.
I don't see anything in that posting that renders me an 'armchair expert' but feel free to flame away at me if you wish
The wings were indeed noticeably bowed upwards as I imagine all 747's tend to be when they're full up. One of the air ambulance boys took a couple photos of it on short finals, I'll see if I can get him to post them perhaps.
Secondly, one would have to check the calibration of the VASIs but assuming they're set for 747 pilot eye height then they're supposed to be 47 or 48' crossing the threshold, I have spent enough time sitting about on the C1 apron to have a vague idea what that looks like from outside, and to me they were maybe 30 or 40' higher than they should have been at the threshold, they touched down maybe a couple of hundred yards past A3 which would confirm that supposition.
I don't see anything in that posting that renders me an 'armchair expert' but feel free to flame away at me if you wish
Nunc est bibendum
Blueeagle, I would have thought that the extra couple of minutes to fly the extra few miles final would still have had them on the ground well before they were due to the shorter final and subsequent overshoot.
I'll back Clarrie's comments here 100%. Wasn't there and don't have all the info but when in doubt, slow down! It may actually SAVE you time in the long run!
I'll back Clarrie's comments here 100%. Wasn't there and don't have all the info but when in doubt, slow down! It may actually SAVE you time in the long run!
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Hear, hear,
I have had numerous instructors tell me that when required to land ASAP spending an extra minute to get set up on finals a little bit further out is a better percentage play than doing a tight rushed circuit and risking a go-around. This incident would surely lend weight to that line of thought.
I have had numerous instructors tell me that when required to land ASAP spending an extra minute to get set up on finals a little bit further out is a better percentage play than doing a tight rushed circuit and risking a go-around. This incident would surely lend weight to that line of thought.
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Yes, I would agree, take that extra two minutes if you can.
In this case we don't know what effect the fire warning had on the captain's decision making, if he actually thought he had a fire that wouldn't extinguish due the continuing red lights he may have tried to hurry things up a bit too much.
When doing the sim detail that involves engine separation the fire warning goes and won't go out even though there is no engine there!
In this case we don't know what effect the fire warning had on the captain's decision making, if he actually thought he had a fire that wouldn't extinguish due the continuing red lights he may have tried to hurry things up a bit too much.
When doing the sim detail that involves engine separation the fire warning goes and won't go out even though there is no engine there!
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Capt Claret
"it seems that one of the assumptions that can be made is that when in a hurry, don't."
BlueEagle
"because he had a fire warning".
Great in theory Capt Claret, but based on BlueEagle's comment, i would assume not.
The Concorde a few years ago is proof of that.
"it seems that one of the assumptions that can be made is that when in a hurry, don't."
BlueEagle
"because he had a fire warning".
Great in theory Capt Claret, but based on BlueEagle's comment, i would assume not.
The Concorde a few years ago is proof of that.