AUSTRALIAN AIRLINES - Beware the Trojan Horse
Al E vator, Boofta and Frank;
just more examples of those pretending they have all the answers and preaching to all that will listen that they are all knowledgable;
Some realities:
1) Airline management will do their best to minimise the cost base as much as they see as reasonable and fair - I would be disappointed if they didnt. Its a sign of the times worldwide and is not restricted to pilots. Pilots are employees and have no god given special rights to cosy conditions of employment, they must justify their benefits and conditions just like everyone else. Almost every industry in the world has either gone through these changes, going through these changes, or will go through these changes. Its up to pilot unions to minimise the impact as best they can be but there is no magic formula. I know in who's favour the cards lie at the moment and its not the employees.
2) Using throwaway phrases like 'work constructively and cohesively and you will assist your situation' and Kaptin M telling 'us to be assured' is very easy to say but you are missing the point. Aside from being arrogant (i.e that you alone can see the real situation and AIPA cant) its unrealistic; in the example of AO, there was absolutely NO POWER WITHIN AIPA TO STOP MANAGEMENT INTRODUCING A LOW COST OFFSHOOT - they will do it if they want it. AIPA has a responsibility to work within these changes to minimise the impact. They have done this with AO, for JUNIOR CREW ITS AN IMPROVEMENT TO CONDITIONS. People like Fartsock moan that AO is taking away flying from QF; yes it is but again THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AIPA COULD DO TO STOP IT. QF crews manning AO is a better situation than AO hiring from outside the QF ranks.
3) Management can reduce conditions as much as they like until the supply and demand monster bites them in the proverbial; to not acknowledge this FACT and work within this reality is ignorant
If you arent in AIPA, you have no idea of what is really happening so you are not in a position to to tell AIPA what they should and should not be doing. Instead of using warm and cuddly throwaway statements; what are your suggested courses of action if you believe AIPA is heading in the wrong direction?
Boofta, saying there is a conspiracy to screw pilots sounds like Shane Warne complaining that he is a victim - its a function of the change in times; people wanted deregulation, competition and low fares and they got it; you cant have it both ways. QF management's no 1 priority is to the shareholder. To not expect a push for cost cutting is just plain stupid. If you consider management as your enemies then you are bound to lose. They are the ones dealing from the pack.
Al E Vator; thumpa was doing nothing more that saying he thinks Frank Borman is an idiot; a fairly reasonable assessment. Boofta said nothing that isnt known by everyone in the industry, no new revelations here. What is sad about his and Frank Bormans posts are the obvious chips that they carry on their shoulders.
If you think Geoff Dixon lies awake at night thinking how can he 'next screw the pilots' then you are not giving him the professional respect he deserves. Im also quite sure he doesnt read PPRUNE thinking that the 'bitching at each other' is making his job easier, I suspect he has bigger issues on his plate.
just more examples of those pretending they have all the answers and preaching to all that will listen that they are all knowledgable;
Some realities:
1) Airline management will do their best to minimise the cost base as much as they see as reasonable and fair - I would be disappointed if they didnt. Its a sign of the times worldwide and is not restricted to pilots. Pilots are employees and have no god given special rights to cosy conditions of employment, they must justify their benefits and conditions just like everyone else. Almost every industry in the world has either gone through these changes, going through these changes, or will go through these changes. Its up to pilot unions to minimise the impact as best they can be but there is no magic formula. I know in who's favour the cards lie at the moment and its not the employees.
2) Using throwaway phrases like 'work constructively and cohesively and you will assist your situation' and Kaptin M telling 'us to be assured' is very easy to say but you are missing the point. Aside from being arrogant (i.e that you alone can see the real situation and AIPA cant) its unrealistic; in the example of AO, there was absolutely NO POWER WITHIN AIPA TO STOP MANAGEMENT INTRODUCING A LOW COST OFFSHOOT - they will do it if they want it. AIPA has a responsibility to work within these changes to minimise the impact. They have done this with AO, for JUNIOR CREW ITS AN IMPROVEMENT TO CONDITIONS. People like Fartsock moan that AO is taking away flying from QF; yes it is but again THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AIPA COULD DO TO STOP IT. QF crews manning AO is a better situation than AO hiring from outside the QF ranks.
3) Management can reduce conditions as much as they like until the supply and demand monster bites them in the proverbial; to not acknowledge this FACT and work within this reality is ignorant
If you arent in AIPA, you have no idea of what is really happening so you are not in a position to to tell AIPA what they should and should not be doing. Instead of using warm and cuddly throwaway statements; what are your suggested courses of action if you believe AIPA is heading in the wrong direction?
Boofta, saying there is a conspiracy to screw pilots sounds like Shane Warne complaining that he is a victim - its a function of the change in times; people wanted deregulation, competition and low fares and they got it; you cant have it both ways. QF management's no 1 priority is to the shareholder. To not expect a push for cost cutting is just plain stupid. If you consider management as your enemies then you are bound to lose. They are the ones dealing from the pack.
Al E Vator; thumpa was doing nothing more that saying he thinks Frank Borman is an idiot; a fairly reasonable assessment. Boofta said nothing that isnt known by everyone in the industry, no new revelations here. What is sad about his and Frank Bormans posts are the obvious chips that they carry on their shoulders.
If you think Geoff Dixon lies awake at night thinking how can he 'next screw the pilots' then you are not giving him the professional respect he deserves. Im also quite sure he doesnt read PPRUNE thinking that the 'bitching at each other' is making his job easier, I suspect he has bigger issues on his plate.
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Ftrplt
Finally someone who knows what the real world is all about.
Its time most of you realised that this is no longer a boys club.
This is a BUSINESS.
You know money to be made.
Get into the real world....You are no longer assured a job for life.
Have a think about where the 767 is heading in Qf.....no-where.
I think the A330 may take over most of the routes.
Finally someone who knows what the real world is all about.
Its time most of you realised that this is no longer a boys club.
This is a BUSINESS.
You know money to be made.
Get into the real world....You are no longer assured a job for life.
Have a think about where the 767 is heading in Qf.....no-where.
I think the A330 may take over most of the routes.
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Frank,
Again I think you are right on the pulse of things. When all these dickheads are arguing the merits of Q.F over A.O and worrying about relative pay scales and trojan horses infiltrating their base camps , S.Q just quietly announce an expansion program for their wholly owned subsidiary, SILKAIR, with an all A320 fleet expanding it's wings throughout the Asia / Pacific region.
The BBC Business Channel on Foxtel had this news last Thursday night. It said that S.Q had decided on this expansion due to the success of airlines such as Virgin Blue Australia , who have been extremely profitable as a discount carrier downunder.
All it would take is an equity deal in exchange for D.J terminal space and they would be off and running here ! Wouldn't that give Mr Dixon something to think about , particularly if Silkair just happened to offer Business class on Australian domestic routes!
I look forward to working with you one day ,in the not to distant future Frank,. .......... And thumpa you can park my car for me if you like........ It might pay better than the dole !
Again I think you are right on the pulse of things. When all these dickheads are arguing the merits of Q.F over A.O and worrying about relative pay scales and trojan horses infiltrating their base camps , S.Q just quietly announce an expansion program for their wholly owned subsidiary, SILKAIR, with an all A320 fleet expanding it's wings throughout the Asia / Pacific region.
The BBC Business Channel on Foxtel had this news last Thursday night. It said that S.Q had decided on this expansion due to the success of airlines such as Virgin Blue Australia , who have been extremely profitable as a discount carrier downunder.
All it would take is an equity deal in exchange for D.J terminal space and they would be off and running here ! Wouldn't that give Mr Dixon something to think about , particularly if Silkair just happened to offer Business class on Australian domestic routes!
I look forward to working with you one day ,in the not to distant future Frank,. .......... And thumpa you can park my car for me if you like........ It might pay better than the dole !
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I may be stating the bleeding obvious here, but let us all face it. in the face of huge airlines and the power and political clout they can and do wield through the beancounters, we are ALL passengers.
From the gentleman in the left hand seat to the lowly Travel Agent, if they want to do something there is not one single thing we can do collectively orindividually to stop them eventually getting their way.
EWL
From the gentleman in the left hand seat to the lowly Travel Agent, if they want to do something there is not one single thing we can do collectively orindividually to stop them eventually getting their way.
EWL
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Frank Borman...
You are a small man! I've been reading many of your posts and I must say it is a shame you wish the demise of Qantas and hence the job losses of well over 30,000 Australians!
By the way, do you know me? Have we met somewhere, I didn't think so, why do you call me an 'arrogant ********', simply for trying to earn a living working for an airline that you don't like. Bag the airline if you must, but it really is pathetic of you to bag people you don't even know, not to mentioin small minded.
And before you reply with something like 'ohhhh FF don't take it personally...' or something along those lines, I don't really care, it's just a shame when any person wishes such things upon there kind, did you know anyone at Ansett?
You are a small man! I've been reading many of your posts and I must say it is a shame you wish the demise of Qantas and hence the job losses of well over 30,000 Australians!
By the way, do you know me? Have we met somewhere, I didn't think so, why do you call me an 'arrogant ********', simply for trying to earn a living working for an airline that you don't like. Bag the airline if you must, but it really is pathetic of you to bag people you don't even know, not to mentioin small minded.
And before you reply with something like 'ohhhh FF don't take it personally...' or something along those lines, I don't really care, it's just a shame when any person wishes such things upon there kind, did you know anyone at Ansett?
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Franky
What a pathetic statement along with your other baseless sweeping statements. and abuse.
You are a fraud and a fake. funnily enough you created an alter ego to agree with your crap. SIRJFP. You enjoy calling anyone at Q arrogant d1ckheads and wish for the demise of Q. I won't mention Impulse. You are not a professional nor are you connected to the aviation industry.
What are you? A disgruntled pax whom wants even cheaper airfares.
All this bottled up hatred and angar can't be good for you. Have you tried Yoga or Meditation? I hear its big in Asia.
Adios
Let it rip Franky.
Boy, it's good being in Singapore, seeing how an airline should operate to keep profits rolling in. They really are coming. WHEN, not if..................can you feel it?
You are a fraud and a fake. funnily enough you created an alter ego to agree with your crap. SIRJFP. You enjoy calling anyone at Q arrogant d1ckheads and wish for the demise of Q. I won't mention Impulse. You are not a professional nor are you connected to the aviation industry.
What are you? A disgruntled pax whom wants even cheaper airfares.
All this bottled up hatred and angar can't be good for you. Have you tried Yoga or Meditation? I hear its big in Asia.
Adios
Let it rip Franky.
Last edited by thumpa; 3rd Mar 2003 at 20:58.
Thread Starter
The above posts are a classic. You girls are putting so much energy into bitching at one another about who is best and who is a wan.ker. Ex AN pilots bagging arrogant Qantas pilots. QF pilots jealous of CX pilots paypackets. Alliance pilots bagging ex-workmates etc etc etc. Jeez does this ever stop. Yes, even I do this too but we must look like complete friggin' fools to outsiders.
No wonder the lot for professional pilots in Australia is so completely stuffed and still heading south.
Geoff Dixon and his ilk must be chuckling endlessly. He doesn't need to undermine us, we do it so well ourselves.
No wonder the lot for professional pilots in Australia is so completely stuffed and still heading south.
Geoff Dixon and his ilk must be chuckling endlessly. He doesn't need to undermine us, we do it so well ourselves.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Al E. V, I feel that the REAL options being floated here by the likes of yourself are too tough for AIPA, ftrplt and some of the other QF pilots who are apparently not capable of seeing the forest (for the trees).
Comments from ftrplt - who would seem to be "involved" with AIPA - such as,
...is naivete in the extreme!! In other words, he is WILLING to see QF pilots take up the clacker until the "supply and demand monster bites". That should be sometime in the next hundred years or so!!
Here's another of ftrplt's gems,
Man are you ever SHORT-SIGHTED!
If you ARE a representaive of AIPA ftrplt, God help the pilots!
Fartsock - apparently a QANTAS pilot by his own admission, apparently has a FAR better grasp of what is going on in the REAL WORLD (as does Al E. Vator), than does ftrplt - perhaps better named ostrch...although even THEY only stick their heads in the sand.
Look outside QANTAS, to overseas airlines. The formation of Australian as a "low cost" subsidiary of the major, is a tactic being played out by anti-union management in several countries.
The steps are EXACTLY the same...
First spend hundreds of millions of dollars to set up this new "low cost" airline, using a new logo, at a station away from the HQ of the original.
Use one of the oldest fleet types (because no-one REALLY cares about losing that) - one that will later on be replaced with the LATEST type, on salaries at the OLD type scale.
Initially start with routes that the pilots are happy to see go, or with new routes that don't qualify the mainline as eligible for. Then, within a couple of years, start to "share" some of the flying with the mainline - eventually completely taking over some mainline flying, bit-by-bit.
But the "mainliners" are happy, as THEY are left with the (current) newest/biggest types, and the best routes. AND their conditions are protected.
Divide and CONQUER.
And you, ftrplt are too BLIND to see it! Because, as Al E. V has said in his last post, you are too busy believing guarding a bone that you think other envious pilots want to steal.
In the meantime, your Master is feeding a pack of wolves at the back door.
Wake up AIPA - and especially YOU, ftrplt!
All of the above IM(unqualified)HO, of course!
Comments from ftrplt - who would seem to be "involved" with AIPA - such as,
Management can reduce conditions as much as they like until the supply and demand monster bites them in the proverbial; to not acknowledge this FACT and work within this reality is ignorant
Here's another of ftrplt's gems,
AIPA has a responsibility to work within these changes to minimise the impact. They have done this with AO, for JUNIOR CREW ITS AN IMPROVEMENT TO CONDITIONS.
If you ARE a representaive of AIPA ftrplt, God help the pilots!
Fartsock - apparently a QANTAS pilot by his own admission, apparently has a FAR better grasp of what is going on in the REAL WORLD (as does Al E. Vator), than does ftrplt - perhaps better named ostrch...although even THEY only stick their heads in the sand.
Look outside QANTAS, to overseas airlines. The formation of Australian as a "low cost" subsidiary of the major, is a tactic being played out by anti-union management in several countries.
The steps are EXACTLY the same...
First spend hundreds of millions of dollars to set up this new "low cost" airline, using a new logo, at a station away from the HQ of the original.
Use one of the oldest fleet types (because no-one REALLY cares about losing that) - one that will later on be replaced with the LATEST type, on salaries at the OLD type scale.
Initially start with routes that the pilots are happy to see go, or with new routes that don't qualify the mainline as eligible for. Then, within a couple of years, start to "share" some of the flying with the mainline - eventually completely taking over some mainline flying, bit-by-bit.
But the "mainliners" are happy, as THEY are left with the (current) newest/biggest types, and the best routes. AND their conditions are protected.
Divide and CONQUER.
And you, ftrplt are too BLIND to see it! Because, as Al E. V has said in his last post, you are too busy believing guarding a bone that you think other envious pilots want to steal.
In the meantime, your Master is feeding a pack of wolves at the back door.
Wake up AIPA - and especially YOU, ftrplt!
All of the above IM(unqualified)HO, of course!
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Freek Flyer, you ********, I was with an AN regional, note, was, so yes, you arrogant QF ********, I did know someone within the AN group!! In fact i know quite a few AN people, still some who don't have jobs, make you happy?
Sniff the flowers thumpa, and while you are there, take a long hard look at the 737NG, lovely aeroplane that. Hey, assuming you still live in Sydney, you may just see Airbus aeroplanes again.
I just pass on what I hear in another country, that being the one in which the so called baseless facts eminate. I'm sorry if my positive reporting of what SQ are doing offends you thumpa, does it not gell with the crap you read in the press in Australia? Then again, where you come from, you are all so clad in rose coloured glasses that you fail to see the true picture, that of SQ investment in DJ and the damage it will do to QF. But, hey, I tell you what, you just get that jar of Vaseline ready dude.
But what would I know, I'm just a passenger? hee hee heee............. Can you feel it thumpa?
I just love stirring you knobs up. You know that I sleep better when I know I've ****stirred you don't you thumpa?
Yeeehaaa launch that hussy as hi ho thumpa rides the dromaderry off into the desert packed with arab semen and sporting a tea shirt saying that the aeroplane was built by the Bin Laden group.......ooooooooohhh the spikey pineapple is better than 2 litres of draino anyday
Frankly I've had enough of this. W
Sniff the flowers thumpa, and while you are there, take a long hard look at the 737NG, lovely aeroplane that. Hey, assuming you still live in Sydney, you may just see Airbus aeroplanes again.
I just pass on what I hear in another country, that being the one in which the so called baseless facts eminate. I'm sorry if my positive reporting of what SQ are doing offends you thumpa, does it not gell with the crap you read in the press in Australia? Then again, where you come from, you are all so clad in rose coloured glasses that you fail to see the true picture, that of SQ investment in DJ and the damage it will do to QF. But, hey, I tell you what, you just get that jar of Vaseline ready dude.
But what would I know, I'm just a passenger? hee hee heee............. Can you feel it thumpa?
I just love stirring you knobs up. You know that I sleep better when I know I've ****stirred you don't you thumpa?
Yeeehaaa launch that hussy as hi ho thumpa rides the dromaderry off into the desert packed with arab semen and sporting a tea shirt saying that the aeroplane was built by the Bin Laden group.......ooooooooohhh the spikey pineapple is better than 2 litres of draino anyday
Frankly I've had enough of this. W
Last edited by Woomera; 4th Mar 2003 at 23:44.
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I'll bet that if "Supply and Demand" were the only master of our destiny as employees then little children would still be crawling up chimneys and down coal mines for a living. At some point or another employees need to determine what is fair and what isn't and then, having drawn a line in the sand, defend their position. Just wander along to the 8 Hour Day memorial near the Trades Hall in Melbourne and reflect on what would have happened had the stonemasons NOT stood up for all workers.
I recall that the AFAP was told it would destroy the economics of the airline business if they forced airlines to take account of the line-up allowance. (That was at a time when the pilot union was listened to in Canberra). But the pilots were of course right and safety (and fair thinking) came first. There's been many similar events initiated by forward thinking, flexible and progressive pilot groups around Australia over the years, especially by AFAP members. And I'll bet Qantas pilots were happy for the AFAP to take the lead on the punitive superannuation taxes proposed in the 80's.
Labour must always be flexible and adapt to new ways of doing business and the changing regulatory and business world. (For example in 1989 AFAP negotiators were happy to begin deregulation talks with a ¡°clean sheet of paper¡± provided past salary losses (captured without constitutional authority by the Hawke junta) were returned). But labour has to speak its mind boisterously if necessary when the rot is setting in.
Sit and watch while the law of the jungle creeps in and we¡¯d all lose seniority, wear blue overalls and fight each other for the next promotion. Just what Bob and Sir Peter wanted. Cost them 4 airlines to learn that there might have been a better, cooperative way. Or maybe they never did learn.
I recall that the AFAP was told it would destroy the economics of the airline business if they forced airlines to take account of the line-up allowance. (That was at a time when the pilot union was listened to in Canberra). But the pilots were of course right and safety (and fair thinking) came first. There's been many similar events initiated by forward thinking, flexible and progressive pilot groups around Australia over the years, especially by AFAP members. And I'll bet Qantas pilots were happy for the AFAP to take the lead on the punitive superannuation taxes proposed in the 80's.
Labour must always be flexible and adapt to new ways of doing business and the changing regulatory and business world. (For example in 1989 AFAP negotiators were happy to begin deregulation talks with a ¡°clean sheet of paper¡± provided past salary losses (captured without constitutional authority by the Hawke junta) were returned). But labour has to speak its mind boisterously if necessary when the rot is setting in.
Sit and watch while the law of the jungle creeps in and we¡¯d all lose seniority, wear blue overalls and fight each other for the next promotion. Just what Bob and Sir Peter wanted. Cost them 4 airlines to learn that there might have been a better, cooperative way. Or maybe they never did learn.
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As a Pilot currently undertaking an intergrated CPL course, dreaming of the day that I can apply for a position with an airline and fulfill my lifes dream, I am filled with disgust and sadness that reality of the job leads to forums such this. 
You people are arrogant! You are conceited!! You have forgotten that there are hundreds of people like myself currently training towards a future doing something they love.
It would seem to an outsider like myself that you all have way TOO MUCH free time on your hands if this is how you end up. You guys are carrying on like an old wives club - except that you are even bitchier
I think a few of you should look into developing hobbies in your spare time and use this valuable tool - the internet forum you all hold so dear - to form a cohesive unit with mutually beneficial goals and ideas.
'Cause I tell you when I or one of my classmates fills one of your seats one day and all they can talk about is the "good old days" where going to be very ****ty with the generation before us (ie: U guys!!
) for screwing things up with their petty infighting and shortsighted pointscoring.
Take a long hard look at yourselves in the mirror some time soon - your not really that precious!!
You people are arrogant! You are conceited!! You have forgotten that there are hundreds of people like myself currently training towards a future doing something they love.
It would seem to an outsider like myself that you all have way TOO MUCH free time on your hands if this is how you end up. You guys are carrying on like an old wives club - except that you are even bitchier
I think a few of you should look into developing hobbies in your spare time and use this valuable tool - the internet forum you all hold so dear - to form a cohesive unit with mutually beneficial goals and ideas.
'Cause I tell you when I or one of my classmates fills one of your seats one day and all they can talk about is the "good old days" where going to be very ****ty with the generation before us (ie: U guys!!
) for screwing things up with their petty infighting and shortsighted pointscoring. Take a long hard look at yourselves in the mirror some time soon - your not really that precious!!
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Might be a very good idea Flightfocus, to think of 2 things.... 1 If you were to realise that out of your precious "class" of what, may be 10 of you, that the odds are NONE of you will reach the lofty heights to which you aspire............ But I'm sure your flying school and instructors told you that......... 2. Much of what you think you know, you obviously do not. Many have gone before you my friend, many have lost jobs and gained jobs through hard work, luck and just plain circumstance. Are you the type that will work for the lowest common denominator just to get a job flying a shiny new jet? And thereby undercut your peers and the money and effort you put in to get there in the first place? Will you "work for free" to get those first hours after your brand new CPL is issued? Just to ensure you get there? Sounds a lot like it..........
As the saying goes my friend, "Walk a mile in my shoes", then you can criticise others for their actions, or lack of....
As the saying goes my friend, "Walk a mile in my shoes", then you can criticise others for their actions, or lack of....
Kaptin M,
you still dont get what I am trying to say.
Thanks for telling us what we all can see, none of us are stupid and can see whats happening. Action is happening within AIPA at the moment over some of these issues. We will have to wait and see how it pans out.
My point however in a nutshell is this; we can only achieve achievable outcomes. You go to great pains to tell us how management is conspiring to screw us, but you offer no solutions.
If you are so knowledgable, give us your suggested plan of attack. Work to rule, go on strike????
I say again, there is minimal power within AIPA to stop management introducing things such as AO, reduction of conditions etc etc; but I do expect them to fight to minimise the impact as best they can, including tradeoffs where appropriate.
No where have I said that I believe AO is a better option that QF doing the flying. I do agree however with the attempt to put a low cost airline on routes that QF find unprofitable. I am not naive however and expect that QF will shift QF flying to AO in the future (as already announced). Again however Kap, instead of preaching, what is the solution??
Now Kap, how you take my quote of:
and turn it into:
is crap. No where did I say I was willing to see it happen, all I said was it is managements RIGHT to set the conditions, it is the unions responsibility to understand this RIGHT when it comes to negotiating. To blindly expect that pilots should not have to justify or defend their conditions is STUPID, and setting yourself up to lose (who won in 89??).
You said:
No **** sherlock. Thanks again for taking the time to tell us how smart you are, but I am well aware of the tactic. My statements of fact to you are that:
1) AIPA has no power to stop it
2) QF crews crewing AO is better than outside crews
3) The conditions negotiated by AIPA for AO are an improvement for junior crews
I am not saying that this makes it ideal, I am saying that within the situation faced by AIPA, they have achieved the best outcome achievable given the cards held by management.
Now instead of preaching to us, tell us how a better solution could have been achieved? Dont just make statements (i.e calling me short sighted), if you are unable to back it up with alternatives.
You also say:
Just because FARTSOCK makes comments that agree with your stance, doesnt automatically mean he can see reality. Just because I take a different view to you doesnt automatically mean I have my head in the sand. You are very willing to make statements of fact as you see them, but offer no solutions or alternatives to back up your assessment of my stance. Instead you (and people like Al E vator and Frank Borman) resort to insults and childish comments; might make you feel good but adds no value or fact.
At the end of the day whether FARTSOCK has a better grasp of reality over my head in the sand views, doesnt stop it happening. Its how you negotiate your way through the minefield that counts.
Finally you say:
Again, dont be so ARROGANT to believe that you are in a position to demand this. AIPA are well aware of reality and have a reasonable grasp on what is achievable and what isnt, for you to believe that they are not aware of the situation is ignorant. You are not in a position to see what is and isnt been done in the current situation.
Again, if you are so wise what are your suggested alternatives?? Why is it again that you are outside Australia offering all this wonderful advice to us in QF??
You started by saying:
Thats just it; none of you have presented any REAL options, all you have done is preached about how those within the organisation have no idea, and told us how all seeing you guys are.
And no Kap M, I am not a representative of AIPA, just a plain old member.
Al E Vator, if you believe that the discussion on this thread is making management drool then you need to wake up. The opinions of a few anonomous people on a chat site hardly represent the views of the majority, and to think that management formulate policy based on what is written here is just stupid. Give them some credit.
you still dont get what I am trying to say.
Thanks for telling us what we all can see, none of us are stupid and can see whats happening. Action is happening within AIPA at the moment over some of these issues. We will have to wait and see how it pans out.
My point however in a nutshell is this; we can only achieve achievable outcomes. You go to great pains to tell us how management is conspiring to screw us, but you offer no solutions.
If you are so knowledgable, give us your suggested plan of attack. Work to rule, go on strike????
I say again, there is minimal power within AIPA to stop management introducing things such as AO, reduction of conditions etc etc; but I do expect them to fight to minimise the impact as best they can, including tradeoffs where appropriate.
No where have I said that I believe AO is a better option that QF doing the flying. I do agree however with the attempt to put a low cost airline on routes that QF find unprofitable. I am not naive however and expect that QF will shift QF flying to AO in the future (as already announced). Again however Kap, instead of preaching, what is the solution??
Now Kap, how you take my quote of:
Management can reduce conditions as much as they like until the supply and demand monster bites them in the proverbial; to not acknowledge this FACT and work within this reality is ignorant
In other words, he is WILLING to see QF pilots take up the clacker until the "supply and demand monster bites". That should be sometime in the next hundred years or so!!
You said:
Look outside QANTAS, to overseas airlines. The formation of Australian as a "low cost" subsidiary of the major, is a tactic being played out by anti-union management in several countries.
1) AIPA has no power to stop it
2) QF crews crewing AO is better than outside crews
3) The conditions negotiated by AIPA for AO are an improvement for junior crews
I am not saying that this makes it ideal, I am saying that within the situation faced by AIPA, they have achieved the best outcome achievable given the cards held by management.
Now instead of preaching to us, tell us how a better solution could have been achieved? Dont just make statements (i.e calling me short sighted), if you are unable to back it up with alternatives.
You also say:
Fartsock - apparently a QANTAS pilot by his own admission, apparently has a FAR better grasp of what is going on in the REAL WORLD (as does Al E. Vator), than does ftrplt - perhaps better named ostrch...although even THEY only stick their heads in the sand.
At the end of the day whether FARTSOCK has a better grasp of reality over my head in the sand views, doesnt stop it happening. Its how you negotiate your way through the minefield that counts.
Finally you say:
Wake up AIPA - and especially YOU, ftrplt!
Again, if you are so wise what are your suggested alternatives?? Why is it again that you are outside Australia offering all this wonderful advice to us in QF??
You started by saying:
Al E. V, I feel that the REAL options being floated here by the likes of yourself are too tough for AIPA, ftrplt and some of the other QF pilots who are apparently not capable of seeing the forest (for the trees).
And no Kap M, I am not a representative of AIPA, just a plain old member.
Al E Vator, if you believe that the discussion on this thread is making management drool then you need to wake up. The opinions of a few anonomous people on a chat site hardly represent the views of the majority, and to think that management formulate policy based on what is written here is just stupid. Give them some credit.
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Hey Frank,
You wouldnt be 'RT' would you?
Ex various regionals for Kenadells ect.
Always hated QF as you had been knocked backed on two occasions?
have a nice day now
FS
You wouldnt be 'RT' would you?
Ex various regionals for Kenadells ect.
Always hated QF as you had been knocked backed on two occasions?
have a nice day now
FS
Last edited by fartsock; 4th Mar 2003 at 20:27.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
FS, you've played your cards fairly close to your chest so far...no NEED to show your hand now!
frtrplt, riddle me this.
Had QF NOT formed their new "low cost" (and to whom is it low cost?....The pax still pay the same ticket price as QF was charging, but WITHOUT the newspapers, service, and FF points) airline, and the flight crew and ground staff had continued to be recruited into QF via the normal channel - what would that have meant for the airline?
It would have meant that ticket prices would have remained the SAME.
But isn't that STILL the case now??!!
It might also have meant that the number of "MANAGERS" stayed the same. In other words, the ESTABLISHED internal company structure remained status quo!
However, as with any long-established company, promotion starts to slow to a predictable trickle, after some time - and for new "young gun execs", looking for a rapid rise in managerial circles - unless they are PARTICULARLY outstanding - the opportunities just ain't there - unless another company is created, opening up new vacancies for empire builders.
Unlike the profession of pilot!!
Enter the "low cost" airline.
QF now decides that it will start a brand new company.
One that needs to be structured from the ground up.
The SAME people could have been employed by QANTAS - after all, the same pre-requisites are set!
But to do that, QANTAS can use the existing staff.
However, a NEW airline - initially based away from the parental HQ - will require a whole NEW gamut of "managers" and associated heirachy, thereby providing promotion and an opportunity for empire-building on another scale.
To take this scenario in the converse, what happens when two companies merge?
There is an immediate rationalistion of staff - ESPECIALLY the MANAGERIAL type.
In short, AA has been formed to provide ground staff - esp. the "managers" - with an opportunity to promote their OWN salaries and bonuses.
To "justify" their positions, salaries of other staff are reduced, and in Australian's case, so are passenger benefits!
If frtrplt REALLY had a CLUE as to where he (and AIPA) should be headed, he wouldn't need to ask the OBVIOUS here on PPRuNe. It would have been done when he and AIPA first got wind of the new QANTAS baby.
(I'm willing to offer advice - but at a price!!
)
Australian Airlines has been set up for the benefit of ground-based "management", and before long I predict that there WILL be non-QF pilots brought in on LESSER conditions than the existing QF. Probably on contract, so as not to upset you boys too much.
Wake up, and smell the roses.
The Trojan Horse has been presented to you, QF pilots, and some of you (eg, ftrplt) appear to be dumb enough to believe that you should NOT be looking THIS "gift horse" in the mouth!!
frtrplt, riddle me this.
Had QF NOT formed their new "low cost" (and to whom is it low cost?....The pax still pay the same ticket price as QF was charging, but WITHOUT the newspapers, service, and FF points) airline, and the flight crew and ground staff had continued to be recruited into QF via the normal channel - what would that have meant for the airline?
It would have meant that ticket prices would have remained the SAME.
But isn't that STILL the case now??!!
It might also have meant that the number of "MANAGERS" stayed the same. In other words, the ESTABLISHED internal company structure remained status quo!
However, as with any long-established company, promotion starts to slow to a predictable trickle, after some time - and for new "young gun execs", looking for a rapid rise in managerial circles - unless they are PARTICULARLY outstanding - the opportunities just ain't there - unless another company is created, opening up new vacancies for empire builders.
Unlike the profession of pilot!!
Enter the "low cost" airline.
QF now decides that it will start a brand new company.
One that needs to be structured from the ground up.
The SAME people could have been employed by QANTAS - after all, the same pre-requisites are set!
But to do that, QANTAS can use the existing staff.
However, a NEW airline - initially based away from the parental HQ - will require a whole NEW gamut of "managers" and associated heirachy, thereby providing promotion and an opportunity for empire-building on another scale.
To take this scenario in the converse, what happens when two companies merge?
There is an immediate rationalistion of staff - ESPECIALLY the MANAGERIAL type.
In short, AA has been formed to provide ground staff - esp. the "managers" - with an opportunity to promote their OWN salaries and bonuses.
To "justify" their positions, salaries of other staff are reduced, and in Australian's case, so are passenger benefits!
If frtrplt REALLY had a CLUE as to where he (and AIPA) should be headed, he wouldn't need to ask the OBVIOUS here on PPRuNe. It would have been done when he and AIPA first got wind of the new QANTAS baby.
(I'm willing to offer advice - but at a price!!
)Australian Airlines has been set up for the benefit of ground-based "management", and before long I predict that there WILL be non-QF pilots brought in on LESSER conditions than the existing QF. Probably on contract, so as not to upset you boys too much.
Wake up, and smell the roses.
The Trojan Horse has been presented to you, QF pilots, and some of you (eg, ftrplt) appear to be dumb enough to believe that you should NOT be looking THIS "gift horse" in the mouth!!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 5th Mar 2003 at 03:01.
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Wow! I have never read so much playing the man in my life.
US Airways is in court trying to halve its committment to its pilots
Super scheme. Or otherwise it threatens to bankrupt itself.
Do you people understand the level that ALL airline managements
are prepared to stoop too.
I admit I have no answers on stopping this rot, I admit I have a
chip on my shoulder about where this industry is going. But please think why the industry is failing itself.
The likes of SQ/VB/AO are the reason and manifestation of the rot not the solution.
US Airways is in court trying to halve its committment to its pilots
Super scheme. Or otherwise it threatens to bankrupt itself.
Do you people understand the level that ALL airline managements
are prepared to stoop too.
I admit I have no answers on stopping this rot, I admit I have a
chip on my shoulder about where this industry is going. But please think why the industry is failing itself.
The likes of SQ/VB/AO are the reason and manifestation of the rot not the solution.
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Boofta,
I don't know much about SQ and as far as Australian goes I watch bemused at the concept.
It seems to me that VBis not "part of the reason for the rot" at all. It is staffed by 100% volunteers who joined on terms made clear at that time. What you see is what you get. No-one is starving, indeed all pilots earn salaries which while not QF standards are quite adequate. And down the road there's the possibility of a staff portion of the public float and the longer term upward moveof all salaraies as VB get an ever increasing slice of the market.
Just remember, VB (as with Compass and Impulse before them) created this market. Low fare travel was not ever a big priority at QF. So as these forums clearly show, jobs have been provided to people who would never have flown jets in Australia otherwise.
Qanats have had years and years to prepare for the final emergence of a well funded new carrier. They should have (forward thinking management?) positioned themselves (cost structure, fleet, strategies, labour contracts) so they would be a part of the boom, not trying desperately to outrun it. They have bet everything on the fact that they offer a product which people will, on average, pay more for, with all the bells and whistles. If they're right then VB will not ever cost one QF job.
VB has given a lot of good jobs to good people. I don't work for them but often fly with them and like their product. Can't quite see the "rot" there.
I don't know much about SQ and as far as Australian goes I watch bemused at the concept.
It seems to me that VBis not "part of the reason for the rot" at all. It is staffed by 100% volunteers who joined on terms made clear at that time. What you see is what you get. No-one is starving, indeed all pilots earn salaries which while not QF standards are quite adequate. And down the road there's the possibility of a staff portion of the public float and the longer term upward moveof all salaraies as VB get an ever increasing slice of the market.
Just remember, VB (as with Compass and Impulse before them) created this market. Low fare travel was not ever a big priority at QF. So as these forums clearly show, jobs have been provided to people who would never have flown jets in Australia otherwise.
Qanats have had years and years to prepare for the final emergence of a well funded new carrier. They should have (forward thinking management?) positioned themselves (cost structure, fleet, strategies, labour contracts) so they would be a part of the boom, not trying desperately to outrun it. They have bet everything on the fact that they offer a product which people will, on average, pay more for, with all the bells and whistles. If they're right then VB will not ever cost one QF job.
VB has given a lot of good jobs to good people. I don't work for them but often fly with them and like their product. Can't quite see the "rot" there.