Sari Club attack.
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OhBehave - I know you don't like him but what has George II done to "Sudan, Hondura's, Nicuragua, Panama, Chile, El Salvador or Haiti"?
Am I missing something here? When were the US tried and convicted as war criminals? I presume you are referring to My Lai? The whole country was certainly not tried for this crime. If you are referring to My Lai then I note you have conveniently forgotten the Nth Viet massacres at Hue and the Serbian massacres at Srebreniza and in Kossovo. Also the massacres in Rwanda and countless other atrcotices since WW2.
Am I missing something here? When were the US tried and convicted as war criminals? I presume you are referring to My Lai? The whole country was certainly not tried for this crime. If you are referring to My Lai then I note you have conveniently forgotten the Nth Viet massacres at Hue and the Serbian massacres at Srebreniza and in Kossovo. Also the massacres in Rwanda and countless other atrcotices since WW2.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Just watched part of a very sombre address by the PM to parliament relaying in some detail the problems faced in identifying those killed. Very sad indeed.
I must be mellowing with age. A few years back my immediate gut reaction would have been to simply target the religion or culture associated with those guilty and seek retribution there. We are dealing with people though who want us to do just that.
So what is the answer? Make a lot of noise, demand action and when nothing is done what then?
I do not hold my breath expecting the corrupt military regime in Indonesia to raise too much of a sweat investigating the matter. They are more than likely implicated as much as whoever delivered and detonated the device.
For the time being I shall direct my energy in helping those affected, that I come in contact with, in whatever way possible.
For the sake of our lost sons and daughters, lets not allow ourselves to be drawn into racial and religeous hatred and become no better than the murderers themselves. I am available however to offer my services to apply some summary justice to those found guilty of this attack.
I must be mellowing with age. A few years back my immediate gut reaction would have been to simply target the religion or culture associated with those guilty and seek retribution there. We are dealing with people though who want us to do just that.
So what is the answer? Make a lot of noise, demand action and when nothing is done what then?
I do not hold my breath expecting the corrupt military regime in Indonesia to raise too much of a sweat investigating the matter. They are more than likely implicated as much as whoever delivered and detonated the device.
For the time being I shall direct my energy in helping those affected, that I come in contact with, in whatever way possible.
For the sake of our lost sons and daughters, lets not allow ourselves to be drawn into racial and religeous hatred and become no better than the murderers themselves. I am available however to offer my services to apply some summary justice to those found guilty of this attack.
CoodaShooda, it's very simple. The source of these extracts from myself and Desert Dingo are straight from the koran.
muslims believe the koran (quran) is the divine word of God. To the muslims, the koran is God's last word to the World.
sura 33:40 "the Quran is the final authority"
Without worrying you too much, until we convert to islam we are considered to be the 'Infidels'.
Going off where Desert Dingo is from, I would say he can 'speak from authority' on what this religion is like, and I'm not suggesting he lives at Lakemba and flies out of Bankstown.
Regards Hoss.
muslims believe the koran (quran) is the divine word of God. To the muslims, the koran is God's last word to the World.
sura 33:40 "the Quran is the final authority"
Without worrying you too much, until we convert to islam we are considered to be the 'Infidels'.
Going off where Desert Dingo is from, I would say he can 'speak from authority' on what this religion is like, and I'm not suggesting he lives at Lakemba and flies out of Bankstown.
Regards Hoss.
Last edited by hoss; 16th Oct 2002 at 08:00.
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I think the threads on track.. something like this might lead to WW III and that'll definenly affect Aviation!
Mustard...
Not to start a pi$$ing competition here over what religion is better..
In the bible, I can't think of any passages commanding the murder of unbelievers in the Christian religion. The only reason why those extremist Christians did what they did was probably because they saw what they wanted to see. They twisted the bible to suit their own needs. In fact I believe it says to 'Love thy neighbour', regardless who they may be.
However if what Hoss and DD say is true, that killing unbelievers is commanded in the Koran, and translated correctly, thats gotta be a different story, and a very dangerous belief indeed...
I hold no anomisity against Muslims, except the ones that start shooting at me or attempt to blow me up....
Mustard...
Not to start a pi$$ing competition here over what religion is better..
In the bible, I can't think of any passages commanding the murder of unbelievers in the Christian religion. The only reason why those extremist Christians did what they did was probably because they saw what they wanted to see. They twisted the bible to suit their own needs. In fact I believe it says to 'Love thy neighbour', regardless who they may be.
However if what Hoss and DD say is true, that killing unbelievers is commanded in the Koran, and translated correctly, thats gotta be a different story, and a very dangerous belief indeed...
I hold no anomisity against Muslims, except the ones that start shooting at me or attempt to blow me up....
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It took two days before President Bush to even comment about this outrage against Australia.
When his adviser told him about it for a moment then posed some questions on the lines of:
i) Where in hell is Bali?
ii) Do they have oil?
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God Bless all the beautifull people who are suffering over this.
When his adviser told him about it for a moment then posed some questions on the lines of:
i) Where in hell is Bali?
ii) Do they have oil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
God Bless all the beautifull people who are suffering over this.
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It is indeed very difficult to separate fact from emotionalism at a time like this. One part of me says that I'd love to jump into the jet today, load up for bear, and then roar up over Indonesia looking for someone to exact vengeance upon.
However, even if we could identify a specific target (such as the terrorist training camp, or rock from under which these people crawled), it's hard to see what me bombing it would achieve.
It seems pretty clear that at least part of the rationale for this attack was to destabilise Megawati Sukarno and the Indonesian government. They are now stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. The western world will no longer allow Indonesia to turn a blind eye to terrorist groups, so some action will have to be taken. However, there are a number of fundamentalist organisations in that country who have as their avowed objective the creation of an Islamic state. If any government action is perceived as too extreme, or Megawati is seen as being beholden to Western demands, then that will just be grist to the fundamentalist's mill. They would love to see this action lead to the downfall of Indonesia's fragile democracy - an outcome which would very definitely be contrary to Australia's interests.
So, long story short, attempting to go in boots and all risks igniting an already inflammatory situation, and using up lots of our very limited political capital in the process. This is the reason for the very sensible and diplomatic approach (IMHO) being taken by the PM and foreign minister Downer. We have to seek for just the right balance of outraged demands and understanding support. Clearly, some things cannot be negotiated - the perpetrators of this terrible act must be found and punished, and their support networks disrupted. However, we must attempt whenever possible to let the Indonesian government initiate and foster this action.
It's also worth remembering that the perpetrators of this outrage hate us and our lifestyle. Most of them are so blinded by this hatred that nothing we do will change their view. However, we need to remember where we are in the world, and continue (start?) a concerted effort to win the hearts and minds of the average Indonesian Muslim citizen. Remember that the USSR lost the Cold War because of Levi jeans and big screen TV's, not nuclear weapons and bombing campaigns...
Thoughts are with the families of the victims.
SW
However, even if we could identify a specific target (such as the terrorist training camp, or rock from under which these people crawled), it's hard to see what me bombing it would achieve.
It seems pretty clear that at least part of the rationale for this attack was to destabilise Megawati Sukarno and the Indonesian government. They are now stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. The western world will no longer allow Indonesia to turn a blind eye to terrorist groups, so some action will have to be taken. However, there are a number of fundamentalist organisations in that country who have as their avowed objective the creation of an Islamic state. If any government action is perceived as too extreme, or Megawati is seen as being beholden to Western demands, then that will just be grist to the fundamentalist's mill. They would love to see this action lead to the downfall of Indonesia's fragile democracy - an outcome which would very definitely be contrary to Australia's interests.
So, long story short, attempting to go in boots and all risks igniting an already inflammatory situation, and using up lots of our very limited political capital in the process. This is the reason for the very sensible and diplomatic approach (IMHO) being taken by the PM and foreign minister Downer. We have to seek for just the right balance of outraged demands and understanding support. Clearly, some things cannot be negotiated - the perpetrators of this terrible act must be found and punished, and their support networks disrupted. However, we must attempt whenever possible to let the Indonesian government initiate and foster this action.
It's also worth remembering that the perpetrators of this outrage hate us and our lifestyle. Most of them are so blinded by this hatred that nothing we do will change their view. However, we need to remember where we are in the world, and continue (start?) a concerted effort to win the hearts and minds of the average Indonesian Muslim citizen. Remember that the USSR lost the Cold War because of Levi jeans and big screen TV's, not nuclear weapons and bombing campaigns...
Thoughts are with the families of the victims.
SW
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Thanks for getting the thread back more or less on track, Swingwing.
If I may go back two pages to answer one of Chimbu C’s comments on my last post there: you misunderstood me in my poor attempt at irony, CC. I wasn’t referring to some rogue Indon fighter jock getting airborne in a random search for a passing Skippy jumbo. I was saying that the Indonesian Government would quite rightly close Indonesian airspace, at least to all Australian-registered civil aircraft and quite possibly to ALL traffic to and from Australia, if the Australian military were to commit an act of war on their soil. (I was also attempting to thicken the irony by illustrating just how difficult any such ‘surgical’ air attack would be by alluding to the fact that there would be much collateral damage and many collateral casualties in any such attack.)
I don’t think QF (or any other airline for that matter) would blithely send their aircraft on scheduled services into any sovereign country’s airspace without a current diplomatic clearance – and any such withdrawal of overflight clearance on the part of the Indonesians would have serious repercussions on Australian Aviation and the Australian economy. (And this is an Aviation forum, isn’t it?)
I have to agree, however, with some of the comments others have made here regarding the smiling faux co-operation and inertia we can expect from the Indonesian military over this. They – or many of them – hate our collective guts over the part Australia played in the recent unwilling Indonesian withdrawal from East Timor. There’ll be more than a few in the Indon miliary quite enjoying our discomfort over this.
And as someone has mentioned already, Bali is largely Hindu, and even many usually very tolerant Australians come away thoroughly embarrassed by the behaviour of many young Australians on their ‘pilgrimages’ to Bali. God only knows what some 'pious' fundamentalist Muslim must make of it. That old pop song of the Seventies said it all of the Oz yobbo culture that has been attached to the ‘big trip’ to Bali for many young Australians – ‘been there, done that, I’ve been to Bali too…’
PS: And before someone gets offended by my comments, (as I'm sure someone will), I don’t care if every one of the Oz victims was the worst kind of yobbo in the world (which I’m sure they weren’t) – no one deserved what those poor people got. No one. Except maybe the mongrels who did it.
If I may go back two pages to answer one of Chimbu C’s comments on my last post there: you misunderstood me in my poor attempt at irony, CC. I wasn’t referring to some rogue Indon fighter jock getting airborne in a random search for a passing Skippy jumbo. I was saying that the Indonesian Government would quite rightly close Indonesian airspace, at least to all Australian-registered civil aircraft and quite possibly to ALL traffic to and from Australia, if the Australian military were to commit an act of war on their soil. (I was also attempting to thicken the irony by illustrating just how difficult any such ‘surgical’ air attack would be by alluding to the fact that there would be much collateral damage and many collateral casualties in any such attack.)
I don’t think QF (or any other airline for that matter) would blithely send their aircraft on scheduled services into any sovereign country’s airspace without a current diplomatic clearance – and any such withdrawal of overflight clearance on the part of the Indonesians would have serious repercussions on Australian Aviation and the Australian economy. (And this is an Aviation forum, isn’t it?)
I have to agree, however, with some of the comments others have made here regarding the smiling faux co-operation and inertia we can expect from the Indonesian military over this. They – or many of them – hate our collective guts over the part Australia played in the recent unwilling Indonesian withdrawal from East Timor. There’ll be more than a few in the Indon miliary quite enjoying our discomfort over this.
And as someone has mentioned already, Bali is largely Hindu, and even many usually very tolerant Australians come away thoroughly embarrassed by the behaviour of many young Australians on their ‘pilgrimages’ to Bali. God only knows what some 'pious' fundamentalist Muslim must make of it. That old pop song of the Seventies said it all of the Oz yobbo culture that has been attached to the ‘big trip’ to Bali for many young Australians – ‘been there, done that, I’ve been to Bali too…’
PS: And before someone gets offended by my comments, (as I'm sure someone will), I don’t care if every one of the Oz victims was the worst kind of yobbo in the world (which I’m sure they weren’t) – no one deserved what those poor people got. No one. Except maybe the mongrels who did it.
Last edited by Wiley; 16th Oct 2002 at 08:43.
Hoss
I have no doubt about your and DD's sincerity. My only question was whether your comments resulted from personal study of the Quran or you were passing on information gleaned from a third or fourth party.
I have a number of Moslem friends who embody those tracts of the Quran that call for tolerance of others religions.
And before you jump to any conclusions, I am very much WASP and the son of a minister to boot. I also have Christian friends who range across the spectrum from 'turning the other cheek' types to far right intolerant red necks - but that's the nature of our reasonably tolerant Territory.
I am also a spin doctor and what I am seeing in the mass media at the moment is terrifying me. The number of conflicting agendas being spun around the world stage has become so large and unstable that it gives the impression of being about to spin out of control.
This is the time for both strong leadership and compassion.
Leadership to keep our heads clear , identify the real targets and stamp them out of existence. And compassion to allow us to see past the labels of race and religion and accept the innocent peoples of the world for what they are, regardless of the differences.
Sadly, we're unlikely to have either in sufficient quantities to prevent a blood bath.
I have no doubt about your and DD's sincerity. My only question was whether your comments resulted from personal study of the Quran or you were passing on information gleaned from a third or fourth party.
I have a number of Moslem friends who embody those tracts of the Quran that call for tolerance of others religions.
And before you jump to any conclusions, I am very much WASP and the son of a minister to boot. I also have Christian friends who range across the spectrum from 'turning the other cheek' types to far right intolerant red necks - but that's the nature of our reasonably tolerant Territory.
I am also a spin doctor and what I am seeing in the mass media at the moment is terrifying me. The number of conflicting agendas being spun around the world stage has become so large and unstable that it gives the impression of being about to spin out of control.
This is the time for both strong leadership and compassion.
Leadership to keep our heads clear , identify the real targets and stamp them out of existence. And compassion to allow us to see past the labels of race and religion and accept the innocent peoples of the world for what they are, regardless of the differences.
Sadly, we're unlikely to have either in sufficient quantities to prevent a blood bath.
CoodaShooda,
My references are first hand accompanied by considerable research on/against islam.
You say:
"I have many muslim friends who embody those tracts of the quran that call for tolerance of others religions."
Now its your turn. Find me a reference from the koran to support this.
Ask any muslim if a Christian would be allowed to set up a Church in his society? Of course not - let those in the dark remain there, seems to be the attitude.
Happy hunting,
Hoss.
ps. what is WASP?
My references are first hand accompanied by considerable research on/against islam.
You say:
"I have many muslim friends who embody those tracts of the quran that call for tolerance of others religions."
Now its your turn. Find me a reference from the koran to support this.
Ask any muslim if a Christian would be allowed to set up a Church in his society? Of course not - let those in the dark remain there, seems to be the attitude.
Happy hunting,
Hoss.
ps. what is WASP?
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Bitter Balance,
You are right. Like the majority of voting Americans, I dont like GII.
He has done very little to the countries mentioned. Sorry, I apologize. I had intended to list Afghanistan as well. Over 4000 confirmed dead in a country where not one hijacker came from. Do you thing the US will start bombing Egypt and Saudi as well.
The US was tried and convicted of war crimes in the early eighties for mining the harbour in Honduras.
Rwanda would be that place where over 1 million civilians were killed in the space of a couple of weeks while the US packed up and left knowing the attrocities being committed (as admitted by Bill Clinton after retirement on 60 minutes US).
And please remind me who the terrorist is.
You are right. Like the majority of voting Americans, I dont like GII.
He has done very little to the countries mentioned. Sorry, I apologize. I had intended to list Afghanistan as well. Over 4000 confirmed dead in a country where not one hijacker came from. Do you thing the US will start bombing Egypt and Saudi as well.
The US was tried and convicted of war crimes in the early eighties for mining the harbour in Honduras.
Rwanda would be that place where over 1 million civilians were killed in the space of a couple of weeks while the US packed up and left knowing the attrocities being committed (as admitted by Bill Clinton after retirement on 60 minutes US).
And please remind me who the terrorist is.
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HOSS
I live in a very Muslim society, and there are plenty of churches of different Christian denominations here. Would you like me to go out and take some photos and post them here?
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good witch-hunt. In your obviously near-religious zeal, you might want to have a look at the Old Testament bible. That might raise a few eye-brows. And that is effectively what the Quoran is. It hasn't had a 'revision'.
Ignorance, such as yours, is the exact breeding ground where barbarism, such as the Sari Club, is born.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good witch-hunt. In your obviously near-religious zeal, you might want to have a look at the Old Testament bible. That might raise a few eye-brows. And that is effectively what the Quoran is. It hasn't had a 'revision'.
Ignorance, such as yours, is the exact breeding ground where barbarism, such as the Sari Club, is born.
PPRuNe's Paramedic
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One of the last people to be left in Darwin was wheeled onto a Qantas flight today. Many thanks to the cabin crew and ground staff. Medical stretcher patients are time consuming at best and tempers have been tried when there are schedules to maintain.
Today they couldnt do enough to help the patient, the family and us. (ambulance crew doing transfers
) and also thanks once again to the airport firies who are ever so willing to give us a hand (or muscle or two 
) when we need them.
For some reason I still have to be restrained from one or two factions in the media though... go figure!
)
On the note of religion, I am very open minded... I am an agnostic... but what I expect from life is a simple ethic, "do to one another as you would have done to yourselves."
A free life is not without responsibilties. I see this every day.. the something for nothing crowd get what they put in.. eventually nothing and what goes round comes round. I have a faint recollection from sundi skool (sic) that to live by the sword is to die by it...
To lead is not intended to mean to bash the sense into some poor sod who did not understand: to lead is by example, education and direction.
There are many cover ups associated with this and many other events. We have access to a filtered and distorted truth. Anger is a natural reaction. But such anger based on the filtered view can be more destructive than the event itself.
From what I over heard from some of the media standing behind the fence was a quiet bemusment that an American navy vessel was stationed just off Bali. From what I read here, many people were aware of the volotile situation about to occur except us Aussies. Our PM was heard to declare he knew nothing of it...
I heard a captain tell his crew and passengers once "sit tight, belt up and hang on, this could be a rough ride." He was right, but we all got home safe thanks to Boeing, the teamwork of the crew, and his courage to speak up. Maybe scare a few folks but no one got hurt. Maybe a few pollies could have done the same for us.
Today they couldnt do enough to help the patient, the family and us. (ambulance crew doing transfers
) and also thanks once again to the airport firies who are ever so willing to give us a hand (or muscle or two ) when we need them.For some reason I still have to be restrained from one or two factions in the media though... go figure!
)On the note of religion, I am very open minded... I am an agnostic... but what I expect from life is a simple ethic, "do to one another as you would have done to yourselves."
A free life is not without responsibilties. I see this every day.. the something for nothing crowd get what they put in.. eventually nothing and what goes round comes round. I have a faint recollection from sundi skool (sic) that to live by the sword is to die by it...
To lead is not intended to mean to bash the sense into some poor sod who did not understand: to lead is by example, education and direction.
There are many cover ups associated with this and many other events. We have access to a filtered and distorted truth. Anger is a natural reaction. But such anger based on the filtered view can be more destructive than the event itself.
From what I over heard from some of the media standing behind the fence was a quiet bemusment that an American navy vessel was stationed just off Bali. From what I read here, many people were aware of the volotile situation about to occur except us Aussies. Our PM was heard to declare he knew nothing of it...
I heard a captain tell his crew and passengers once "sit tight, belt up and hang on, this could be a rough ride." He was right, but we all got home safe thanks to Boeing, the teamwork of the crew, and his courage to speak up. Maybe scare a few folks but no one got hurt. Maybe a few pollies could have done the same for us.
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Hoss,
I can only echo what ferris has already said here.
I live just down the road from him, in a 99% Muslim country and they are to a man, outraged at what has happened.
They are disgusted that anyone would firstly perpetrate such an act and then even more outraged that they are attempting to give their cause justification by invoking Islam.
Unfortunately your considerable reasearch on/against Islam... says it all really. on/against.
Islamic teaching forbids the harming of non combatants, forbids force except as a last resort (after making every attempt at conciliation), forbids suicide in any guise, preaches tolerance of other religions, especially "the people of the book"..to those uninformed out there, that's Christians and Jews.
Someone else also said that there are nutters in every religion, I used to work with a born again loony in Rocky...he believed all unbelievers should be killed too...and that included Catholics, Anglicans Muslims, jews etc etc, ie everyone that didn't agree with their twisted teachings. He even went to great lengths to give me quotes from the bible supporting this stance.
Basically this was an outrage, there is not a religion on the planet that would condone such behaviour.
Deep breaths everybody, stop beating up the Muslim angle, that is EXACTLY what these a$$holes want, to stir up strife between the two of the major religions of the world.
If it turns out that the perp was a muslim, he should be treated as a terrorist that just so hapens to be a muslim, not the other way around.
I can only echo what ferris has already said here.
I live just down the road from him, in a 99% Muslim country and they are to a man, outraged at what has happened.
They are disgusted that anyone would firstly perpetrate such an act and then even more outraged that they are attempting to give their cause justification by invoking Islam.
Unfortunately your considerable reasearch on/against Islam... says it all really. on/against.
Islamic teaching forbids the harming of non combatants, forbids force except as a last resort (after making every attempt at conciliation), forbids suicide in any guise, preaches tolerance of other religions, especially "the people of the book"..to those uninformed out there, that's Christians and Jews.
Someone else also said that there are nutters in every religion, I used to work with a born again loony in Rocky...he believed all unbelievers should be killed too...and that included Catholics, Anglicans Muslims, jews etc etc, ie everyone that didn't agree with their twisted teachings. He even went to great lengths to give me quotes from the bible supporting this stance.
Basically this was an outrage, there is not a religion on the planet that would condone such behaviour.
Deep breaths everybody, stop beating up the Muslim angle, that is EXACTLY what these a$$holes want, to stir up strife between the two of the major religions of the world.
If it turns out that the perp was a muslim, he should be treated as a terrorist that just so hapens to be a muslim, not the other way around.
I may only be a pig-ignorant Pom, but something tells me that blowing up the Indonesian army HQ, or any other military action unless actually invited in by the Indonesian government to look for the swine, would be a very good way to create a failed state or worse still, a still-unified enemy state. The elected government would be completely discredited, the population understandably furious, and the situation ripe for a military takeover of power or popular revolution - either ultra-Islamist or ultra-nationalist.
Failing either of those, you could expect either an Islamist attempt to drive out or wipe out the Christians, Hindus etc, or a violent reaction on their part against the Muslims. With such a situation threatening, a new military boss or other sort of tyrant would be tempted to attempt unity through confrontation: i.e. use a showdown with foreigners to divert the internal trouble, like Austria in 1914, Argentina in 1982, Sukarno's Indonesia in the early 60s and lots more.
Even if the government was to permit Australian or other forces into the country to help chase their rebels, this could still lead to a burst of nationalist rage and either burning barricades or tanks on the street. I say again, the government could not survive an uninvited foreign military presence - it would either be swept away by revolution, toppled by the army or forced to join the enemy. Even if we were to be called in to help beat the Islamist rebels, Sukarnoputri's government would be associated completely with "foreign invaders" and would likely fall. The terrorists' agenda is the creation of chaos, in which to pursue their goal of a religious-fascist state.
The chaos could be created through a new economic crisis, through an outbreak of nationalist fury at a foreign intervention, through a military takeover, or through an escalation of ethnic conflict to full scale civil war (which could be brought about by a foreign intervention). In any of these situations the terrorists would have the opportunity to hack an Islamist state out of the wrecked Indonesian state, probably by expelling or killing the Christian and Muslim minorities in their bits of the country. The Bali bombs would fit unpleasantly well into a strategy of economic mayhem, aiming to knock out tourism as a source of economic revival and trigger a new crisis, worse than that of 1997. At the same time they open the possibility of foreign powers intervening and making it possible to brand the government as puppets. The right answer is surely to build up the elected civilian government to maintain its control over the country - not to undermine it or make an enemy of it.
Failing either of those, you could expect either an Islamist attempt to drive out or wipe out the Christians, Hindus etc, or a violent reaction on their part against the Muslims. With such a situation threatening, a new military boss or other sort of tyrant would be tempted to attempt unity through confrontation: i.e. use a showdown with foreigners to divert the internal trouble, like Austria in 1914, Argentina in 1982, Sukarno's Indonesia in the early 60s and lots more.
Even if the government was to permit Australian or other forces into the country to help chase their rebels, this could still lead to a burst of nationalist rage and either burning barricades or tanks on the street. I say again, the government could not survive an uninvited foreign military presence - it would either be swept away by revolution, toppled by the army or forced to join the enemy. Even if we were to be called in to help beat the Islamist rebels, Sukarnoputri's government would be associated completely with "foreign invaders" and would likely fall. The terrorists' agenda is the creation of chaos, in which to pursue their goal of a religious-fascist state.
The chaos could be created through a new economic crisis, through an outbreak of nationalist fury at a foreign intervention, through a military takeover, or through an escalation of ethnic conflict to full scale civil war (which could be brought about by a foreign intervention). In any of these situations the terrorists would have the opportunity to hack an Islamist state out of the wrecked Indonesian state, probably by expelling or killing the Christian and Muslim minorities in their bits of the country. The Bali bombs would fit unpleasantly well into a strategy of economic mayhem, aiming to knock out tourism as a source of economic revival and trigger a new crisis, worse than that of 1997. At the same time they open the possibility of foreign powers intervening and making it possible to brand the government as puppets. The right answer is surely to build up the elected civilian government to maintain its control over the country - not to undermine it or make an enemy of it.
Evertonian
Well, I think Woomera deserves our appreciation for letting this thread continue, especially since it became somewhat volatile for a while there. I guess this is one of those topics where people need to blow off steam and the latitude given should be acknowledged.
It amazes me that incidents from the middle ages are being brought up in argument here. Apart from illustrating differences between Islam & Christianity, why bring it up? You cannot apply modern day thinking to the actions of those in the past.
I know one Muslim, and he would have to be the nicest bloke I've ever met. Apart from him, I know next to nothing about Islam, however I do know a bit about Christianity.
Turn the other cheek.
It amazes me that incidents from the middle ages are being brought up in argument here. Apart from illustrating differences between Islam & Christianity, why bring it up? You cannot apply modern day thinking to the actions of those in the past.
I know one Muslim, and he would have to be the nicest bloke I've ever met. Apart from him, I know next to nothing about Islam, however I do know a bit about Christianity.
Turn the other cheek.
Swounger
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York, NY USA
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If Christians, or whoever, turn the other cheek against this militant Islam, they won't have any cheeks left to turn. Why aren't you calling a spade a spade? Militant Muslims have been massacring Christians in Indonesia, in Pakistan, and in the Philippines. It's about militant Islam. It must be stopped. What Christians, or others, did in the past doesn't make that right or the Muslim murderers right at this time, does it?