Sari Club attack.
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Who said anything about starting a war, just making them understand that we require that they do something more transparently constructive than peddle platitudes.
Brace yourself, because the final Aussie death toll will be in the hundreds.
Brace yourself, because the final Aussie death toll will be in the hundreds.
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Gaunty's summation of the situation in his post on page two is highly accurate and his advice on how to respond is pretty spot on too. I suggest a second reading.
Indonesia has been soft on terrorism for a long time and that, coupled with a corrupt government, legal system and army are the root of the problem.
All those fancy international hotels in Bali are owned by government cronies anyway so most dollars you spend in country go straight to the pockets of the people causing the problem.
I do have sympathy for the lower level employees and small business that will suffer because of this - although in today's SMH it was reported that taxi drivers tried to rip off victims of the attack by charging outragoeus sums to take people away from the scene in the immediate aftermath
Indonesia has been soft on terrorism for a long time and that, coupled with a corrupt government, legal system and army are the root of the problem.
All those fancy international hotels in Bali are owned by government cronies anyway so most dollars you spend in country go straight to the pockets of the people causing the problem.
I do have sympathy for the lower level employees and small business that will suffer because of this - although in today's SMH it was reported that taxi drivers tried to rip off victims of the attack by charging outragoeus sums to take people away from the scene in the immediate aftermath
hmmm
I think you seriously overestimate their air force.Their spare situation since the Asian crisis has not been good.Their F16s are export model and poorly maintained, all eight of them. The rest is seventies equipment, not updated and again poorly maintained.
Pilot training, corruption etc etc.
I think you may underestimate ours.
Buster
Only the Poms amongst us would think Ned Kelly and Peter Lalor not heroes!
Indonesia is vulnerable and eventually likely to disintegrate. This horrible event probably not the catylst, just a horrible wake up for Australia.
I think you seriously overestimate their air force.Their spare situation since the Asian crisis has not been good.Their F16s are export model and poorly maintained, all eight of them. The rest is seventies equipment, not updated and again poorly maintained.
Pilot training, corruption etc etc.
I think you may underestimate ours.
Buster
Only the Poms amongst us would think Ned Kelly and Peter Lalor not heroes!
Indonesia is vulnerable and eventually likely to disintegrate. This horrible event probably not the catylst, just a horrible wake up for Australia.
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There is only one way for you Ockers and Kiwis to deal with this problem. Leave Bali, and in fact the whole of Indonesia, off your list of places to visit.
Talk of attacking the people responsible is a pipedream, totally out of this world. Australia doesn't have the manpower or the resources to deal with this problem and NZ certainly is of no use.
The USA have their hands full with Afganistan and Iraq.
Look after your own back yard. Be vigilant, security concious and be ready for something closer to home as it seems to be heading this way.
Stay away from all muslim countries. It seems that there own governments aren't prepared to protect visitors to their shores.
There are many other destinations to visit with friendlier governments. Take advantage of those and enjoy their hospitality while we can.
It may come in the future that we will not be able to travel as freely as we have in the past.
Talk of attacking the people responsible is a pipedream, totally out of this world. Australia doesn't have the manpower or the resources to deal with this problem and NZ certainly is of no use.
The USA have their hands full with Afganistan and Iraq.
Look after your own back yard. Be vigilant, security concious and be ready for something closer to home as it seems to be heading this way.
Stay away from all muslim countries. It seems that there own governments aren't prepared to protect visitors to their shores.
There are many other destinations to visit with friendlier governments. Take advantage of those and enjoy their hospitality while we can.
It may come in the future that we will not be able to travel as freely as we have in the past.
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Just a sobering thought for some of you.
Indonesia has a defence force of over one million highly trained well equipped regulars that can be mobilised within 24 hours.
All up we have, at a rough guess, 65 thousand. That's Army, airforce, and navy. And if I have erred in that number it will be in over estimating not under estimating our forces. Wonderful our fighters may be but few have seen combat, have never fought on their own soil and had to fight street to street, house to house
or watched their family and friends go without food, clothing, shelter - all those basic things we take for granted that you lose when your country has a war in its backyard. By the time the good old US of A had mobilised a battle fleet in this direction it would be all over. Get real fellers. The only way this situation will be solved is by political & economic pressures and even then they probably won't have the desired effect. But a war with Indonesia - where's my bow and arrow!
Indonesia has a defence force of over one million highly trained well equipped regulars that can be mobilised within 24 hours.
All up we have, at a rough guess, 65 thousand. That's Army, airforce, and navy. And if I have erred in that number it will be in over estimating not under estimating our forces. Wonderful our fighters may be but few have seen combat, have never fought on their own soil and had to fight street to street, house to house
or watched their family and friends go without food, clothing, shelter - all those basic things we take for granted that you lose when your country has a war in its backyard. By the time the good old US of A had mobilised a battle fleet in this direction it would be all over. Get real fellers. The only way this situation will be solved is by political & economic pressures and even then they probably won't have the desired effect. But a war with Indonesia - where's my bow and arrow!
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Gaunty
Normally I have great respect for your posts, but I must say I am disappointed with your efforts on this thread.
You just don't get it, do you? What do you (and all the others spouting vitriol) think was the purpose of the bombing? If, in fact, purpertrated by al Qaida, or other Islamic terrorists, it was to foster religious hatred.
This is not "politically correct BS". And "naive feelgood crap". Exactly who is being naive? Naive feelgood crap is sending a "clear unequivocal message backed up with some real action". What message? What "real action"? All this talk of sending in the F18's and F111s. To bomb who? The Indon military? The terrorists couldn't hope for a better result. As the US has found, the terrorists are playing at international guerilla warfare- there is no target to bomb, no country to annhiliate. Very frustrating, yes, but a quick, devastating response just can't happen.
And HOSS, you are exactly the person the terrorists are hoping for. Redneck ignorance at it's best.
The US is closer to conquering Vietnam now than they ever were. All those wasted bombs, bullets and lives. When they were 'winning hearts and minds', they should have added wallets.
You just don't get it, do you? What do you (and all the others spouting vitriol) think was the purpose of the bombing? If, in fact, purpertrated by al Qaida, or other Islamic terrorists, it was to foster religious hatred.
This is not "politically correct BS". And "naive feelgood crap". Exactly who is being naive? Naive feelgood crap is sending a "clear unequivocal message backed up with some real action". What message? What "real action"? All this talk of sending in the F18's and F111s. To bomb who? The Indon military? The terrorists couldn't hope for a better result. As the US has found, the terrorists are playing at international guerilla warfare- there is no target to bomb, no country to annhiliate. Very frustrating, yes, but a quick, devastating response just can't happen.
And HOSS, you are exactly the person the terrorists are hoping for. Redneck ignorance at it's best.
The US is closer to conquering Vietnam now than they ever were. All those wasted bombs, bullets and lives. When they were 'winning hearts and minds', they should have added wallets.
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First, Condolences to everyone effected.
As an ozmate not living in gods country anymore, it is funny how the comments here and in other places are translated and help propel the myth of OZ.
Where I am there are literally millions of people that see oz as a mythical land of peace and freedom, freedom of speech, freedom from persecution, or simply freedom.
After WW2 people came to oz with nothing to start over again, to go to the other side of the planet with no language skills, no support , no nothing means that where you were must have been pretty bad.
I now work in the uncivilised world, were I come home to a guard with an AK47, and get security briefings form European and north American embassy officials.
Australia is seen as the land of milk and honey, where the utilities work, where you don’t need to carry a gun ie paradise.
This myth of paradise also displays naivety in the eyes of the big wide world, everyone here knows East Timor was all about oil and gas, we were able to put a lid on the situation real quick.
Talk of having a few fast movers lob some iron onto the neighbours lawn is like letting your dog crap on their front steps, It amuses the peanut gallery but achieves f…all.
We are now being dragged into the Global war on terrorism. Global war….. nah I don’t think so.
Its time to protect what we have, Tampa may have been a political mess and the do gooders may have their nickers in a knot but it raised awareness to boarder security. Anyone that has worked up north and flown around the coast knows on a good day after the Airforce closes at 1500 on Friday you could move anything into oz at a variety of locations, the only thing stopping this happening is the bad guys incompetence not being able to organise a p1ss-up in a brewery on a good day.
Imagine if what happened in Kuta had happened in Sydney or say the Gold Coast, the only reason it has not is because Kuta was a soft target, the mainland is a hard target and lets keep it that way.
Protect, defend, don’t let them get even close, so that oz is a good place to live, where your kids can play in the street and you can retire and enjoy peace.
Where I am there are literally millions of people that see oz as a mythical land of peace and freedom, freedom of speech, freedom from persecution, or simply freedom.
After WW2 people came to oz with nothing to start over again, to go to the other side of the planet with no language skills, no support , no nothing means that where you were must have been pretty bad.
I now work in the uncivilised world, were I come home to a guard with an AK47, and get security briefings form European and north American embassy officials.
Australia is seen as the land of milk and honey, where the utilities work, where you don’t need to carry a gun ie paradise.
This myth of paradise also displays naivety in the eyes of the big wide world, everyone here knows East Timor was all about oil and gas, we were able to put a lid on the situation real quick.
Talk of having a few fast movers lob some iron onto the neighbours lawn is like letting your dog crap on their front steps, It amuses the peanut gallery but achieves f…all.
We are now being dragged into the Global war on terrorism. Global war….. nah I don’t think so.
Its time to protect what we have, Tampa may have been a political mess and the do gooders may have their nickers in a knot but it raised awareness to boarder security. Anyone that has worked up north and flown around the coast knows on a good day after the Airforce closes at 1500 on Friday you could move anything into oz at a variety of locations, the only thing stopping this happening is the bad guys incompetence not being able to organise a p1ss-up in a brewery on a good day.
Imagine if what happened in Kuta had happened in Sydney or say the Gold Coast, the only reason it has not is because Kuta was a soft target, the mainland is a hard target and lets keep it that way.
Protect, defend, don’t let them get even close, so that oz is a good place to live, where your kids can play in the street and you can retire and enjoy peace.
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Overestimation!
Hmm... & Skychaser;
You guys have given the Indonesian Military far too much credit.
The RAAF's biggest problem with the Indonesian Air Force is running out of ammunition before they're all shot down.
Their equip is old and except for a possible few low spec F16's - is limited to day/good weather intercepts. Not to mention the edge the RAAF have on training.
As for their ground forces, what a joke. There may be 1000K of them but their fundamental role is Internal defence i.e. heavily armed policemen disguised as military. The only real threat is from the Kopassas units, and even then, a lot of their officers trained in Australia so the Australian Military know their tactics.
If they were any good, do you think they would have let E.Timor go so easily - c'mon .
In any case, talk about facing off against the Indoneasian Military is not realistic.
Any reprisals should be directed against groups/camps of whoever is found to be responsible - even if it happens to be on Indoneasian Soil - so be it. and if the Indoneasian Military get in the way of any such action then it's their bad luck.
Lets not forget the history of the last century and what happens when tyrants and terrorists are allowed to run free. Australia's resolve and the sane world's resolve must not be weakened.
Let's not forget what wonderful free nations we have in Oz & NZ.
You guys have given the Indonesian Military far too much credit.
The RAAF's biggest problem with the Indonesian Air Force is running out of ammunition before they're all shot down.
Their equip is old and except for a possible few low spec F16's - is limited to day/good weather intercepts. Not to mention the edge the RAAF have on training.
As for their ground forces, what a joke. There may be 1000K of them but their fundamental role is Internal defence i.e. heavily armed policemen disguised as military. The only real threat is from the Kopassas units, and even then, a lot of their officers trained in Australia so the Australian Military know their tactics.
If they were any good, do you think they would have let E.Timor go so easily - c'mon
.In any case, talk about facing off against the Indoneasian Military is not realistic.
Any reprisals should be directed against groups/camps of whoever is found to be responsible - even if it happens to be on Indoneasian Soil - so be it. and if the Indoneasian Military get in the way of any such action then it's their bad luck.
Lets not forget the history of the last century and what happens when tyrants and terrorists are allowed to run free. Australia's resolve and the sane world's resolve must not be weakened.
Let's not forget what wonderful free nations we have in Oz & NZ.
Grandpa Aerotart
So just suppose for a minute that it is Jamal Islam that is responsible for this latest attack on 'Christians'....they are the mob of white dressed Islamic Fundamentalists that have been killing Ambonese Christians by the gross over the last year or so (completely undisturbed by anyone let alone the Indon Military), bombing Nightclubs in Jakarta etc...real mob of c*nts and alledgedly mates of Bin Laden ...we find it is them, we find there HQ/hideout whatever...tell me again why we can't simply wipe them off the face of the planet?
They are hell bent on Holy War...why dissappoint them?
How many attacks on innocent civilians does it take before action is taken, in the strongest form, to stop it?
No-one is suggesting proclaiming war on Indonesia as a whole or on Islam as a Religion...but it's becoming more obvious each week that sections of the Islamic Faith have a real problem with the West and our proclivity for having a good time, getting drunk and laid...as is our right...so I say we solve their dilemma for them...send em on to their Heaven where 7 virgins and whatever else awaits. Anyone else see the the double standard by the way...or are we to believe they prefer the conversational abilities of virgins?
The War On Terrorism (dontcha love that acronym
) is coming to our doorstep...today I find myself agreeing with Senator Brown for the first time...we have enough to cope with in our backyard without getting mixed up with a US grab for Iraqi oil.
Indonesia is coming apart at the seams, PNG is not far behind...our Defence Forces are going to be VERY busy lads and ladesses for the next decade or two right here in Southest Asia and the Pacific.
Time to up the defence budget by several orders or magnitude...and if surgical strikes on parts of Indonesia are required to stop these nutcases then just tell the Indonesians to do it NOW or step aside!
Chuck.
They are hell bent on Holy War...why dissappoint them?
How many attacks on innocent civilians does it take before action is taken, in the strongest form, to stop it?
No-one is suggesting proclaiming war on Indonesia as a whole or on Islam as a Religion...but it's becoming more obvious each week that sections of the Islamic Faith have a real problem with the West and our proclivity for having a good time, getting drunk and laid...as is our right...so I say we solve their dilemma for them...send em on to their Heaven where 7 virgins and whatever else awaits. Anyone else see the the double standard by the way...or are we to believe they prefer the conversational abilities of virgins?
The War On Terrorism (dontcha love that acronym
) is coming to our doorstep...today I find myself agreeing with Senator Brown for the first time...we have enough to cope with in our backyard without getting mixed up with a US grab for Iraqi oil.Indonesia is coming apart at the seams, PNG is not far behind...our Defence Forces are going to be VERY busy lads and ladesses for the next decade or two right here in Southest Asia and the Pacific.
Time to up the defence budget by several orders or magnitude...and if surgical strikes on parts of Indonesia are required to stop these nutcases then just tell the Indonesians to do it NOW or step aside!
Chuck.
Evertonian
Sorry Gnadenburg.
Not a Pom. But I would consider people like Mawson, Kingsford-Smith & Weary Dunlop to be Australian "heroes". Not greedy, selfish malcontents & thugs. Then again, rock stars get knighthoods & tennis players get Australian of the year...WTF!
Interesting to see that Indonesia has allowed the public to vote for the President from the next election. If it's bad now....
Not a Pom. But I would consider people like Mawson, Kingsford-Smith & Weary Dunlop to be Australian "heroes". Not greedy, selfish malcontents & thugs. Then again, rock stars get knighthoods & tennis players get Australian of the year...WTF!
Interesting to see that Indonesia has allowed the public to vote for the President from the next election. If it's bad now....
Chimbu
Maybe interested. Was reported a on the 7 30 Report 120 AL Queda terrorists chartered an aircraft an flew directly to Ambon last year to assist and train local Islamic radicals in the slaughter of Ambonese christians.
Reports of nitrate materials, for making truck bombs , confiscated at Bali airport in the preceding months.Links to Phillipine Islamic extremists.
We obviously need a lot more invested in intelligence.
Buster
1850-1880 a tough time in Australia. Not much justice.
Your undisputed great Aussies from a very different Australia!
On Indonesia
Where is all this garbage about a highly credible force projection capability coming from? Fell of my chair over the one million highly trained and quickly mobilised Indonesian soldiers.
Last week Indon police were machine gunning indon soldiers and vicky verka- all over corruption.
The Indon threat to us has been witnessed. Not the red neck invasion theory. Though if it does implode, we could have 15 million Christian Indonesian boat people on our doorstep.
Maybe interested. Was reported a on the 7 30 Report 120 AL Queda terrorists chartered an aircraft an flew directly to Ambon last year to assist and train local Islamic radicals in the slaughter of Ambonese christians.
Reports of nitrate materials, for making truck bombs , confiscated at Bali airport in the preceding months.Links to Phillipine Islamic extremists.
We obviously need a lot more invested in intelligence.
Buster
1850-1880 a tough time in Australia. Not much justice.
Your undisputed great Aussies from a very different Australia!
On Indonesia
Where is all this garbage about a highly credible force projection capability coming from? Fell of my chair over the one million highly trained and quickly mobilised Indonesian soldiers.
Last week Indon police were machine gunning indon soldiers and vicky verka- all over corruption.
The Indon threat to us has been witnessed. Not the red neck invasion theory. Though if it does implode, we could have 15 million Christian Indonesian boat people on our doorstep.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 14th Oct 2002 at 12:29.
Grandpa Aerotart
Gnadenburg,
And while I was living in Singapore earlier this year someone hurled a handgrenade over the wall at the Australian International School in Jakarta, it exploded harmlessly in the parking lot luckily...Security went up significantly at my daughters school, Australian International School, in Singapore as a result.
When they are prepared to attack school children you figure they've forgone any rights they might have had let alone justifications for whatever ills they perceive the west has brought upon them.
If it wasn't for a complete moron I'd be doing Sin-Bali shuttles the last few nights in a beautifully fitted out medivac jet...not fun for me but better for the patients than the dismal hospitals in Bali...and the 'no frills' medivac jets currently in SE Asia.
Chuck
And while I was living in Singapore earlier this year someone hurled a handgrenade over the wall at the Australian International School in Jakarta, it exploded harmlessly in the parking lot luckily...Security went up significantly at my daughters school, Australian International School, in Singapore as a result.
When they are prepared to attack school children you figure they've forgone any rights they might have had let alone justifications for whatever ills they perceive the west has brought upon them.
If it wasn't for a complete moron I'd be doing Sin-Bali shuttles the last few nights in a beautifully fitted out medivac jet...not fun for me but better for the patients than the dismal hospitals in Bali...and the 'no frills' medivac jets currently in SE Asia.
Chuck
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 14th Oct 2002 at 14:09.
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OK, may I be the one to douse the more… ummm… outspoken among us with a healthy dose of cold water chaps? Since this IS an Aviation forum, has anyone spared a thought for the effect on Australia’s overseas aviation industry if (when!) Indonesia closes its airspace to all civil flights to and from Dunnunda? Like about 1hr 30min after Ron Raaf’s first ‘surgical’ strike against Apartment 23B, No 1387 Jalan Merdeka, Jakarta? What are we going to do, escort each one of Skippy’s 747s and 767s with all the many(!) F18s we possess all the way to Singapore? Yeah, right!
Seriously though, I can understand the frustration and the feeling of wanting to strike back. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the terrorist beast that there’s simply no easily identified target to strike back at in a conventional way. So let’s cool the rhetoric and let the politicians and diplomats do what they do so well – wheel and deal. And you can be sure they’ll be doing a lot of that after this.
Could I also make another observation that will be undoubtedly unpopular to some? I don’t for one moment believe that there aren’t quite a few Al Qaeda operatives in Australia stirring up trouble in the Muslim community, but 99.9% of Muslim people who’ve come to Australia did so to get away from crazies like those who’ve perpetrated this horror. You can guarantee that there be no Al Qaeda sleepers among the poor sods like the Lebanese or Iraqi who runs your local 711 who are undoubtedly going to suffer the vigilante wrath of the rednecks in our community. Don’t allow yourself – or anyone you know – to be led into doing anything (or agreeing with anything) that you wouldn’t like to see done to one of your own. All the rednecks will achieve is to reinforce the line the Al Qaeda boys have been spinning the Muslims in Australia – that they must remain separate and isolated from the rest of the community for their own protection.
Oh, and keep an eye on John Howard and what draconian measures he’ll try to sneak through as legislation to combat terror attacks in Dunnunda.
Seriously though, I can understand the frustration and the feeling of wanting to strike back. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the terrorist beast that there’s simply no easily identified target to strike back at in a conventional way. So let’s cool the rhetoric and let the politicians and diplomats do what they do so well – wheel and deal. And you can be sure they’ll be doing a lot of that after this.
Could I also make another observation that will be undoubtedly unpopular to some? I don’t for one moment believe that there aren’t quite a few Al Qaeda operatives in Australia stirring up trouble in the Muslim community, but 99.9% of Muslim people who’ve come to Australia did so to get away from crazies like those who’ve perpetrated this horror. You can guarantee that there be no Al Qaeda sleepers among the poor sods like the Lebanese or Iraqi who runs your local 711 who are undoubtedly going to suffer the vigilante wrath of the rednecks in our community. Don’t allow yourself – or anyone you know – to be led into doing anything (or agreeing with anything) that you wouldn’t like to see done to one of your own. All the rednecks will achieve is to reinforce the line the Al Qaeda boys have been spinning the Muslims in Australia – that they must remain separate and isolated from the rest of the community for their own protection.
Oh, and keep an eye on John Howard and what draconian measures he’ll try to sneak through as legislation to combat terror attacks in Dunnunda.
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Terriorist's...........Religion's........Two different things totally.
Terriorist Religions......Is that what we are dealing with here??
....Not another F####d up cult epidemic??
Dirty Dogs is what we are dealing with....Its time these smelly puppets learn to lik their own ass and lik it clean.
Terriorist Religions......Is that what we are dealing with here??
....Not another F####d up cult epidemic??
Dirty Dogs is what we are dealing with....Its time these smelly puppets learn to lik their own ass and lik it clean.
Last edited by Mark CRUISE; 14th Oct 2002 at 14:19.
Grandpa Aerotart
I reckon we are heading for an Indonesian version of the Malayan Emergency...sooner or later...how many more deaths before that happens do you think?
Wiley...QF flights under threat from Nusantara birdmen if we 'help' the Indon Govt control/eliminate terrorists? Well I suppose given Indonesia is the largest Islamic Nation on Earth there is just the chance that there might be one (Fundamentalist) Indonesian Fighter pilot who's just nutty enough to do something as terminally stupid as that...what would you suggest our Govt do after...express outrage, stamp, jump up and down and hold it's breath?
Given what just happened in Bali why couldn't that happen tomorrow...how would we react if it did...surely killing several hundred innocents in a 747 is no different to killing several hundred in a Bar at Kuta...perhaps our F18s and Singapore's F5s/F16s should be escorting civilian airlines now...silly?
Why?
I'm curious to know how you think groups like Abu Siaf, Al Qaida etc etc are going to react to constant redrawing of lines in the sand?
I certainly have nothing against Islam or it's practitioners...one of the BIG plusses about living in Singapore and spending a fair bit of time in Malaysia was that on 1011 my 13 year old walked out of our condo without batting an eyelid...she just intuitively knew that Muslim does NOT equal Terrorist.
But if the Islamic world doesn't act credibly and soon to reinforce that then perhaps the west might lose patience...if they can't clean up their own house...
Chuck.
Wiley...QF flights under threat from Nusantara birdmen if we 'help' the Indon Govt control/eliminate terrorists? Well I suppose given Indonesia is the largest Islamic Nation on Earth there is just the chance that there might be one (Fundamentalist) Indonesian Fighter pilot who's just nutty enough to do something as terminally stupid as that...what would you suggest our Govt do after...express outrage, stamp, jump up and down and hold it's breath?
Given what just happened in Bali why couldn't that happen tomorrow...how would we react if it did...surely killing several hundred innocents in a 747 is no different to killing several hundred in a Bar at Kuta...perhaps our F18s and Singapore's F5s/F16s should be escorting civilian airlines now...silly?
Why?
I'm curious to know how you think groups like Abu Siaf, Al Qaida etc etc are going to react to constant redrawing of lines in the sand?
I certainly have nothing against Islam or it's practitioners...one of the BIG plusses about living in Singapore and spending a fair bit of time in Malaysia was that on 1011 my 13 year old walked out of our condo without batting an eyelid...she just intuitively knew that Muslim does NOT equal Terrorist.
But if the Islamic world doesn't act credibly and soon to reinforce that then perhaps the west might lose patience...if they can't clean up their own house...
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 14th Oct 2002 at 14:56.
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Does Australia have a new PM??
Reported by CBS on website.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in525389.shtml
"The effect on Australia is like Sept. 11 because of the significant number of Australians involved," says Australian Prime Minister Helen Clark.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in525389.shtml
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ferris
Thank you for your kind words, but if you read my post carefully you may see what I mean.
You may not, in your location, be getting the same news that we are and I would recommend a visit to the local paers websites.
News today and the Govt actions and attitude pretty much confirm my thoughts.
Their have been warnings out for months about the likelihood of Al Quaeda attacks, without any firm idea about exactly what will happen.
Now it has.
The symbolism of the location is exquisite, Bali is a Hindu enclave in a Muslim State, the Balinese are tolerant and friendly, it is a major Western, read Australian, tourist destination, the Sari Bar and Kuta in general is where relatively affluent Westerners congregate en mass and indulge in all those pursuits that are anathema to Muslim fundamentalists, assertive women exposing themselves, horizontal folk dancing as a serious pursuit, both genders drinking with each other and generally having a boisterous good time.
My 24 yr old middle daughter had just returned from a fortnight there and had been, like all the tourists generally having a good time in that very bar, I have the photos.
Nobody was doing anybody any harm apart from contributing a huge fistfull of money to a fragile economy.
That will now cease.
The problem our pollies have, is to get the Indons to do what their neighbours and rest of the world has been asking them to do, at least since 9/11 and that is to come clean on the terrorists, that everybody knows are in their country with the uncomfortable knowledge that some parts of their military are supporting them.
So far, in spite of the Singaporeans for example uncovering a plot for a dozen or so truck bombs leading directly to Indonesia they refuse to engage.
You are absolutely correct about the perpetrators motivation to foment religious hatred.
As a predominantly Muslim State, which is supposed to be about peace and enlightenment, the Indonesian Govt has and had the means to stop this dead, right now. Period.
That they haven’t done so is what they now have to answer for.
Megawati is only there by the grace of the military and they have just passed legislation regarding the method of their Presidential elections that almost gaurantees her removal.
She is also there by the grace of the very many Muslim factions some extremist and any strong action against any of them, will result in her removal
The situation is very unstable and this outrage makes it even more so in a country that is barely holding together whilst the military elite struggles for power. Given their insolent duplicity in E Timor it is not hard to imagine any scenario you may wish in regard to the motives and political use of the Bali tragedy.
We have offered our help and resources in the terrorist investigation and in bringing the culprits to justice, the test will be, whether we will be allowed to fully and without let or hindrance and what will or not be off limits.
There is a direct similarity to our friend Hussein.
There will be a grand play of cooperation, much sucking of teeth and nodding in agreement all of which veil total inaction.
We have been pussy footing around with them on this subject and in our struggle to not offend them they may have gained the impression that we don’t take it all that seriously.
That was then this is now, not sabre rattling, no threatening, just a clear plea for them to show unequivocally that they are civilised neighbours who will not tolerate such actions or attitudes within their or any country.
NO amount of war is going to bring that to pass it must come from their leaders.
That means their leaders must lead and demonstrate that they are doing so.
Our job is to insist that they now have no other options. Period.
If reason and simple humanity cannot bring that to pass or their are forces that are determined to prevent that happening then regrettably there are limited choices available.
Thank you for your kind words, but if you read my post carefully you may see what I mean.
You may not, in your location, be getting the same news that we are and I would recommend a visit to the local paers websites.
News today and the Govt actions and attitude pretty much confirm my thoughts.
Their have been warnings out for months about the likelihood of Al Quaeda attacks, without any firm idea about exactly what will happen.
Now it has.
The symbolism of the location is exquisite, Bali is a Hindu enclave in a Muslim State, the Balinese are tolerant and friendly, it is a major Western, read Australian, tourist destination, the Sari Bar and Kuta in general is where relatively affluent Westerners congregate en mass and indulge in all those pursuits that are anathema to Muslim fundamentalists, assertive women exposing themselves, horizontal folk dancing as a serious pursuit, both genders drinking with each other and generally having a boisterous good time.
My 24 yr old middle daughter had just returned from a fortnight there and had been, like all the tourists generally having a good time in that very bar, I have the photos.
Nobody was doing anybody any harm apart from contributing a huge fistfull of money to a fragile economy.
That will now cease.
The problem our pollies have, is to get the Indons to do what their neighbours and rest of the world has been asking them to do, at least since 9/11 and that is to come clean on the terrorists, that everybody knows are in their country with the uncomfortable knowledge that some parts of their military are supporting them.
So far, in spite of the Singaporeans for example uncovering a plot for a dozen or so truck bombs leading directly to Indonesia they refuse to engage.
You are absolutely correct about the perpetrators motivation to foment religious hatred.
As a predominantly Muslim State, which is supposed to be about peace and enlightenment, the Indonesian Govt has and had the means to stop this dead, right now. Period.
That they haven’t done so is what they now have to answer for.
Megawati is only there by the grace of the military and they have just passed legislation regarding the method of their Presidential elections that almost gaurantees her removal.
She is also there by the grace of the very many Muslim factions some extremist and any strong action against any of them, will result in her removal
The situation is very unstable and this outrage makes it even more so in a country that is barely holding together whilst the military elite struggles for power. Given their insolent duplicity in E Timor it is not hard to imagine any scenario you may wish in regard to the motives and political use of the Bali tragedy.
We have offered our help and resources in the terrorist investigation and in bringing the culprits to justice, the test will be, whether we will be allowed to fully and without let or hindrance and what will or not be off limits.
There is a direct similarity to our friend Hussein.
There will be a grand play of cooperation, much sucking of teeth and nodding in agreement all of which veil total inaction.
We have been pussy footing around with them on this subject and in our struggle to not offend them they may have gained the impression that we don’t take it all that seriously.
That was then this is now, not sabre rattling, no threatening, just a clear plea for them to show unequivocally that they are civilised neighbours who will not tolerate such actions or attitudes within their or any country.
NO amount of war is going to bring that to pass it must come from their leaders.
That means their leaders must lead and demonstrate that they are doing so.
Our job is to insist that they now have no other options. Period.
If reason and simple humanity cannot bring that to pass or their are forces that are determined to prevent that happening then regrettably there are limited choices available.
The word around Sydney airport yesterday was that 2 QF checkin girls from SIT were missing. Last seen in the SARRI bar moments before the explosion.
Did anyone hear the 19 yo self proclaimed Muslim extreamist on Allan Jones this morning, proclaiming that even though he was born in Australia, he did not recognise any of our laws, on that of tha Karan. Stated that he sees himself as a Muslim and not an Australian. This is what wer are dealing with.
Did anyone hear the 19 yo self proclaimed Muslim extreamist on Allan Jones this morning, proclaiming that even though he was born in Australia, he did not recognise any of our laws, on that of tha Karan. Stated that he sees himself as a Muslim and not an Australian. This is what wer are dealing with.