Getting ripped off when flying in Avalon airspace
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
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It was suggested the other day in a well known publication that nobody should pay Avdata. What a top idea!
If the account is small, which many are, you are better off sending your cheque direct to the council. If you choose to ignore it then trash the bill.
There was a council in northern NSW that charged thru Avdata and a flying group had a flyin there. The council would not give a concession. Income from the landing charges was around $150 and the group put about $7000 into the town over the weekend. A subsequent media and newspaper letters etc campaign had the council remove the charge for private ops.
When they put a boom gate on the road into town, it might then be fair, until then it is discrimination in its finest form.
Dont Pay!
If the account is small, which many are, you are better off sending your cheque direct to the council. If you choose to ignore it then trash the bill.
There was a council in northern NSW that charged thru Avdata and a flying group had a flyin there. The council would not give a concession. Income from the landing charges was around $150 and the group put about $7000 into the town over the weekend. A subsequent media and newspaper letters etc campaign had the council remove the charge for private ops.
When they put a boom gate on the road into town, it might then be fair, until then it is discrimination in its finest form.
Dont Pay!
Mainframe..
I stand corrected, but how would it work if you did not
change category to IFR
at an IFR reporting point, just somewhere on your direct track?
CS
I stand corrected, but how would it work if you did not
change category to IFR
at an IFR reporting point, just somewhere on your direct track?CS
Grandpa Aerotart
Have now perused the AsA website and indeed it seems that if you choose an appropriate Light Aircraft Option you could get good value for money in general terms....certainly it would be cheaper for me, in DOCs, to sit up high and go in a straight line than to duck and weave down low...zigzagging around control zones at a lower TAS/higher fuel burn.
It has long been my thought, based on annecdotal evidence, that AVdata was a rip off and I see nohing to change that...I will ignore them as an irrelevance.
Chuck.
It has long been my thought, based on annecdotal evidence, that AVdata was a rip off and I see nohing to change that...I will ignore them as an irrelevance.
Chuck.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney Australia
Age: 78
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Mainframe says:-
"A sector is IFR waypoint to IFR waypoint, NOT the entire trip, e.g. YSSY to YBIK might be flown IFR, then the remainder to YSCB flown vfr. Charges apply to the Sector ( YSSY-YBIK) flown IFR. If it was necessary to continue IFR from YBIK for a little while then change to VFR, charges would apply from YBIK to the next IFR waypoint before reverting to VFR."
This is what I would like to believe, but can find no reference to this on the ASA site. All paragraphs seem to repeatedly refer to "the ENTIRE flight".
Does anyone have a reference to this "waypoint to waypoint" definition of a sector when related to charges?
"A sector is IFR waypoint to IFR waypoint, NOT the entire trip, e.g. YSSY to YBIK might be flown IFR, then the remainder to YSCB flown vfr. Charges apply to the Sector ( YSSY-YBIK) flown IFR. If it was necessary to continue IFR from YBIK for a little while then change to VFR, charges would apply from YBIK to the next IFR waypoint before reverting to VFR."
This is what I would like to believe, but can find no reference to this on the ASA site. All paragraphs seem to repeatedly refer to "the ENTIRE flight".
Does anyone have a reference to this "waypoint to waypoint" definition of a sector when related to charges?
Check Attitude
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
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Compressor and Money Driver, If you change category to IFR, then you will be charged for the route sector you are in at the time, e.g. you might be in 96 nm sector with only 6nm to the next waypoint, you will be charged for the entire 96nm sector.
So if you want to change to VFR, remember to do so BEFORE the waypoint that defines the next sector and the meter stops at that waypoint.
If you were not on an IFR route but flying IFR on a direct non-IFR published track, your sector is from origin to destination, so you would be clever where possible to plan via IFR tracks if they're not too far off your direct track.
As an aside, when tonnes/nm charging was introduced, a lot of smaller operators started to fly VFR when possible to avoid charges.
This sometimes led to operations in marginal vmc. Eventually they learnt to factor it into the charter quote anyway and if they were then able to go VFR they were in front.
ASA have a booklet that explains the charging system so it will probably be a pdf doc on their site.
Most of my understanding of charges comes from reading the booklet while digesting and editing the ASA invoices.
Typical charges from memory for a 1.7 hr flight in a C310 (about 300nm) were in the order of $40, plus the terminal charges if your dest had ATC and fire services etc.
If you fly infrequently it is probably insignificant and acceptable, but it is easy to run up a $500/week bill if you do it regularly and frequently.
So if you want to change to VFR, remember to do so BEFORE the waypoint that defines the next sector and the meter stops at that waypoint.
If you were not on an IFR route but flying IFR on a direct non-IFR published track, your sector is from origin to destination, so you would be clever where possible to plan via IFR tracks if they're not too far off your direct track.
As an aside, when tonnes/nm charging was introduced, a lot of smaller operators started to fly VFR when possible to avoid charges.
This sometimes led to operations in marginal vmc. Eventually they learnt to factor it into the charter quote anyway and if they were then able to go VFR they were in front.
ASA have a booklet that explains the charging system so it will probably be a pdf doc on their site.
Most of my understanding of charges comes from reading the booklet while digesting and editing the ASA invoices.
Typical charges from memory for a 1.7 hr flight in a C310 (about 300nm) were in the order of $40, plus the terminal charges if your dest had ATC and fire services etc.
If you fly infrequently it is probably insignificant and acceptable, but it is easy to run up a $500/week bill if you do it regularly and frequently.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Classified
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I was trying to think of appropriate callsigns to confuse the avdata parasites
I was thinking "Alpha Bravo Charlie"
- too fake.
Then it came into my head "Tango Foxtrot Alpha" sounds much more authentic.
Then I thought "that won't do either" because that is a Cessna T303 owned by a certain high up CASA person and that would be most impolite.:o
Back to the drawing board I guess.
I was thinking "Alpha Bravo Charlie"
- too fake.Then it came into my head "Tango Foxtrot Alpha" sounds much more authentic.
Then I thought "that won't do either" because that is a Cessna T303 owned by a certain high up CASA person and that would be most impolite.:o
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Camden, NSW, Australia
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Mainframe and Mooney Driver, have a look in the ASA Booklet paragraph 5.1 "If all or any part of a flight operates under IFR, the enroute charge for the whole flight in an Australian flight information region is:" A flight is from take-off to landing. The only way around I can see is that you tell them "landed XYZ cancel SAR", have a cup of coffee and then continue on VFR. Remember they have your plan and it will cost you time and money to argue otherwise. Most of the money they collect gets used up in the collecting and little gets used for the purpose it was intended for.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Thank you, I FLY.
That's the way I read it too, and could/can see no reference that allowed charging for a "waypoint to waypoint" sector.
I've always wondered what would happen if you asked for a "pop-up" IFR clearance and gave your departure point as the nearest airfield just behind you???
I suppose you could also consider cancelling IFR when appropriate and then declare your "destination" as the nearest airfield with a navaid or intersection on the field.
If you've already filed a plan, I suppose you couldn't do the above.
That's the way I read it too, and could/can see no reference that allowed charging for a "waypoint to waypoint" sector.
I've always wondered what would happen if you asked for a "pop-up" IFR clearance and gave your departure point as the nearest airfield just behind you???
I suppose you could also consider cancelling IFR when appropriate and then declare your "destination" as the nearest airfield with a navaid or intersection on the field.
If you've already filed a plan, I suppose you couldn't do the above.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
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You could just file your plans as MIL, no charges... Callsign XXX123; no Registration required as its a MIL plan. Hard to do if you're out of a Prim or Sec aerodrome but if it makes no difference to the controllers.
Don't forget to put something in about what the letters mean so we know what to call you, RMK in field 18 (I think). e.g PST123 RMK/Callsign practice stealth
You'd only be upsetting the beancounters; we wouldn't want that.
Bottle of Rum
Don't forget to put something in about what the letters mean so we know what to call you, RMK in field 18 (I think). e.g PST123 RMK/Callsign practice stealth
You'd only be upsetting the beancounters; we wouldn't want that.
Bottle of Rum
