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Nunc est bibendum
Double Standards
Geez Citizen, everyone agrees that 744 F/O had a bad attitude and was mostly being a goose winding people up all the time and he/she has been widely condemned for it over the last month or so.
You do the same but then go and be every bit as offensive as 744 F/O by casting dispersions on the remainding 2299 QF crew who mostly DON'T exhibit the same attitude as 744 F/O- and besides that, we don't even know if 744 F/O is a QF driver or not!!
I've got no problem with people saying that his posts are offensive but your last post has got to be one of the biggest examples of double standards I've seen on PPRUNE in a long time. In short, I've taken offense. Perhaps I should be sending messages to Woomera to get him to bin you for a year too since you feel that is the punishment for such behaviour! I won't though, the difference being is that 744 F/O was deliberately stirring people up, and got nailed accordingly. You on the other hand are just demonstrating your ignorance and you shouldn't be binned for just being ignorant. Shame really the following point you made was pretty spot on. Interesting though that you don't necessarily believe it- if you did you wouldn't have made the original comment about QF drivers now would you.
Have a nice day.
You do the same but then go and be every bit as offensive as 744 F/O by casting dispersions on the remainding 2299 QF crew who mostly DON'T exhibit the same attitude as 744 F/O- and besides that, we don't even know if 744 F/O is a QF driver or not!!
I've got no problem with people saying that his posts are offensive but your last post has got to be one of the biggest examples of double standards I've seen on PPRUNE in a long time. In short, I've taken offense. Perhaps I should be sending messages to Woomera to get him to bin you for a year too since you feel that is the punishment for such behaviour! I won't though, the difference being is that 744 F/O was deliberately stirring people up, and got nailed accordingly. You on the other hand are just demonstrating your ignorance and you shouldn't be binned for just being ignorant. Shame really the following point you made was pretty spot on. Interesting though that you don't necessarily believe it- if you did you wouldn't have made the original comment about QF drivers now would you.
Have a nice day.
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Keg,
You are quite right. I did not articulate my thoughts nearly as well as I should have, or normally do, and I apologize to the great number of QF guys who are decent blokes/girls. It was aimed as a minority group, not intended to offend (expecially you Keg) and I should have mentioned that.
There will always be an arrogant minority in any group, QF, AN, CX, etc., even GA, and they should be roundly condemned for such behaviour. I certainly didn't intend that I should be in that group.
And I'm having a nice day
You are quite right. I did not articulate my thoughts nearly as well as I should have, or normally do, and I apologize to the great number of QF guys who are decent blokes/girls. It was aimed as a minority group, not intended to offend (expecially you Keg) and I should have mentioned that.
There will always be an arrogant minority in any group, QF, AN, CX, etc., even GA, and they should be roundly condemned for such behaviour. I certainly didn't intend that I should be in that group.
And I'm having a nice day
Last edited by CitizenXX; 30th Sep 2002 at 01:03.
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What's a Pilot Worth?
Commentary, Air Line Pilot, August 1999, page 6
By F/O John Ley (Delta)
When contract time rolls around, you will begin hearing comments from our fellow employees, from management, and the news media about pilots’ excessive salaries and over-sized egos, etc. I cringe when I hear a pilot react defensively about our wages and lifestyle. Do you?
Does your doctor, your lawyer, your CPA, or your dentist apologize for his or her salary? Why should you?
The doctor to whom I entrust my health and my family’s health earns six figures a year. The specialist I entrusted an eye problem to several years ago earns several times my six-figure salary. Had she botched the job, my multimillion-dollar career would have come to a screeching halt. She didn’t, and because of her extensive training and experience as an eye specialist, I’m back in the cockpit pursuing my career as an airline pilot. She was worth every penny she was paid. Her 8–10 years of college, medical school, residency, and specialty training delayed her entry into the high-dollar workforce. She had no guarantees she’d earn the big bucks of an eye specialist. She felt the risk was worth taking, and it has paid off handsomely for her and her family. Not all of her colleagues were as successful. Sound familiar?
The CPA who prepares my tax returns earns six figures a year. She’s very good and knows her business. She doesn’t apologize for what she charges. I pay her for her knowledge and experience. She’s worth every penny. The lawyer I took my parents to for some estate planning was not cheap. Customers like my parents paid for his high-priced office and expensive car. They willingly paid for his knowledge and experience. He certainly made no excuses for his earnings. In both cases, the CPA and the lawyer spent years acquiring both the education and experience before they earned "the big bucks." Sound familiar?
I have a friend who is a dentist. Following college and dental school, she spent 4 years in the military to gain experience and to help pay off her dental school loans. Leaving the military, she took a pay cut in her first civilian job working for another dentist. It took her 3–4 years before she was earning more on the outside than she was paid in the military. She then took another risk--she started her own practice. Some savvy moves on her part have resulted in her having a successful practice 6–7 years later. She’s now earning more than a quarter of a million dollars per year at age 44. She offers no apologies for her income. Many of her classmates from dental school are earning half a million or more a year. None of them react defensively about their earnings. Why should we?
The professionals mentioned above share some very common traits. While not all people in their profession earn six-figure salaries, those at the top of their profession do earn six figures, sometimes seven.
Most of them delayed their entry into the normal workforce by several years to acquire the education, training, skills, and experience necessary to become eligible to enter their chosen career field. Most of those career fields have some form of licensing requirement in addition to continuing-education training on an annual or periodic basis.
As professional airline pilots, we are justifiably proud of our achievements. Those of us who have landed jobs at major airlines have overcome many hurdles. Many of us have worked for five or six airlines before getting to a major airline. Others spent 6-10 years in the military getting the requisite experience. Our annual checkrides, training, and FAA medical examinations are a constant intrusion into our lives. A large number of our fellow pilots will have their careers cut short because of a medical problem, resulting in a loss (temporarily or permanently) of their medical certificate.
Educating the flying public and our fellow employees is up to us.
The next time you’re in a social situation, think about what and how you communicate. Perhaps instead of bragging about your three-times-a-week golf game, talk about your last simulator check or your last upgrade school. Educate those around you about the amount of advance preparation (with no pay) you did to successfully complete that school or simulator check. Inform them about the last poor weather day during which you made a CAT II or CAT III landing, or handled an aircraft malfunction, bringing the airplane to a safe landing. You don’t need to boast. Just be factual and emphasize your training and experience in safely handling these situations.
Perhaps slowly, over time, we will add to the positive image pilots already enjoy with the traveling public. Then, when the next contract negotiations come around, people will be more inclined to say, "Those pilots are well worth what they’re paid." After all, the public doesn’t generally complain about what their doctor, their dentist, their CPA, or their lawyer earns. Why should they complain about what their pilot earns? Their lives are in our hands. l
This article is reprinted with permission from Delta Council 124’s newsletter, "The Orient Express," April.
Commentary, Air Line Pilot, August 1999, page 6
By F/O John Ley (Delta)
When contract time rolls around, you will begin hearing comments from our fellow employees, from management, and the news media about pilots’ excessive salaries and over-sized egos, etc. I cringe when I hear a pilot react defensively about our wages and lifestyle. Do you?
Does your doctor, your lawyer, your CPA, or your dentist apologize for his or her salary? Why should you?
The doctor to whom I entrust my health and my family’s health earns six figures a year. The specialist I entrusted an eye problem to several years ago earns several times my six-figure salary. Had she botched the job, my multimillion-dollar career would have come to a screeching halt. She didn’t, and because of her extensive training and experience as an eye specialist, I’m back in the cockpit pursuing my career as an airline pilot. She was worth every penny she was paid. Her 8–10 years of college, medical school, residency, and specialty training delayed her entry into the high-dollar workforce. She had no guarantees she’d earn the big bucks of an eye specialist. She felt the risk was worth taking, and it has paid off handsomely for her and her family. Not all of her colleagues were as successful. Sound familiar?
The CPA who prepares my tax returns earns six figures a year. She’s very good and knows her business. She doesn’t apologize for what she charges. I pay her for her knowledge and experience. She’s worth every penny. The lawyer I took my parents to for some estate planning was not cheap. Customers like my parents paid for his high-priced office and expensive car. They willingly paid for his knowledge and experience. He certainly made no excuses for his earnings. In both cases, the CPA and the lawyer spent years acquiring both the education and experience before they earned "the big bucks." Sound familiar?
I have a friend who is a dentist. Following college and dental school, she spent 4 years in the military to gain experience and to help pay off her dental school loans. Leaving the military, she took a pay cut in her first civilian job working for another dentist. It took her 3–4 years before she was earning more on the outside than she was paid in the military. She then took another risk--she started her own practice. Some savvy moves on her part have resulted in her having a successful practice 6–7 years later. She’s now earning more than a quarter of a million dollars per year at age 44. She offers no apologies for her income. Many of her classmates from dental school are earning half a million or more a year. None of them react defensively about their earnings. Why should we?
The professionals mentioned above share some very common traits. While not all people in their profession earn six-figure salaries, those at the top of their profession do earn six figures, sometimes seven.
Most of them delayed their entry into the normal workforce by several years to acquire the education, training, skills, and experience necessary to become eligible to enter their chosen career field. Most of those career fields have some form of licensing requirement in addition to continuing-education training on an annual or periodic basis.
As professional airline pilots, we are justifiably proud of our achievements. Those of us who have landed jobs at major airlines have overcome many hurdles. Many of us have worked for five or six airlines before getting to a major airline. Others spent 6-10 years in the military getting the requisite experience. Our annual checkrides, training, and FAA medical examinations are a constant intrusion into our lives. A large number of our fellow pilots will have their careers cut short because of a medical problem, resulting in a loss (temporarily or permanently) of their medical certificate.
Educating the flying public and our fellow employees is up to us.
The next time you’re in a social situation, think about what and how you communicate. Perhaps instead of bragging about your three-times-a-week golf game, talk about your last simulator check or your last upgrade school. Educate those around you about the amount of advance preparation (with no pay) you did to successfully complete that school or simulator check. Inform them about the last poor weather day during which you made a CAT II or CAT III landing, or handled an aircraft malfunction, bringing the airplane to a safe landing. You don’t need to boast. Just be factual and emphasize your training and experience in safely handling these situations.
Perhaps slowly, over time, we will add to the positive image pilots already enjoy with the traveling public. Then, when the next contract negotiations come around, people will be more inclined to say, "Those pilots are well worth what they’re paid." After all, the public doesn’t generally complain about what their doctor, their dentist, their CPA, or their lawyer earns. Why should they complain about what their pilot earns? Their lives are in our hands. l
This article is reprinted with permission from Delta Council 124’s newsletter, "The Orient Express," April.
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Interceptor, thanks for the article. The only problem I see with it is that it is written for a US audience. In Australia people do whinge about how much their doctor, CPA etc earns.
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The common misconception in the pilot group is that higher tech crew pay results in a safer airline. This is completely false. Delta airlines, one of the highest paying (if not the highest) airlines in the US should know this - they were almost shut down by the FAA for a string of safety related accidents and incidents back in the late eighties.
Pay and conditions in the oz airline scene have been eroded for years - the collapse of AN will do nothing but accelerate this. The only spike on the pay graph now is QF.
Pay and conditions in the oz airline scene have been eroded for years - the collapse of AN will do nothing but accelerate this. The only spike on the pay graph now is QF.
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OB,
Sad but true. A few mates in Qantas are convinced that it can't last much longer. I don't know how Dixon will do it, but they're convinced he will achieve pay cuts in some way. One wonders if he'll attack the rest of the QF workforce with the same gusto as he attacks the pilots. Never happened in AN - TWU was untouchable.
It will be interesting to see what SQ offer if/when they get up, and if it's less than QF, as it will surely be, then Dixon will be off and running. Hopefully, for everybody's sake, it will be more than VB is paying.
BB,
I agree. Aussies do whinge about how much others make, and pilots are despised by the public for what they earn. The public don't know for sure, although some would through remarkably accurate figures published in Australian Aviation a while back, but if it's a hundred grand, then it's too much is the general attitude.
The article sounds to me like nothing more than a union attempting to bolster its image prior to contract negotiations.
Sad but true. A few mates in Qantas are convinced that it can't last much longer. I don't know how Dixon will do it, but they're convinced he will achieve pay cuts in some way. One wonders if he'll attack the rest of the QF workforce with the same gusto as he attacks the pilots. Never happened in AN - TWU was untouchable.
It will be interesting to see what SQ offer if/when they get up, and if it's less than QF, as it will surely be, then Dixon will be off and running. Hopefully, for everybody's sake, it will be more than VB is paying.
BB,
I agree. Aussies do whinge about how much others make, and pilots are despised by the public for what they earn. The public don't know for sure, although some would through remarkably accurate figures published in Australian Aviation a while back, but if it's a hundred grand, then it's too much is the general attitude.
The article sounds to me like nothing more than a union attempting to bolster its image prior to contract negotiations.
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SQ will pay pilots the going market rate - on par with VB, NJS, etc. Nothing more, they dont have to.
Dixon has already made productivity gains with the domestic pilot group - NG's crewed at the same rates as classic 737's.
Dixon has already made productivity gains with the domestic pilot group - NG's crewed at the same rates as classic 737's.
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eisle s
Yeah I kinda thought that if there was a difference it should be around the other way, what with the glass and less switches 'n knobs 'n things
Yeah I kinda thought that if there was a difference it should be around the other way, what with the glass and less switches 'n knobs 'n things
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Less switches and knobs my arse!
The NG is a 1960's mutant and when Boeing come out of the last century they may stand a chance of competing against modern aircraft manufacturers.
I agree more money to make my life easier,put me in coach I'm ready to play.
The NG is a 1960's mutant and when Boeing come out of the last century they may stand a chance of competing against modern aircraft manufacturers.
I agree more money to make my life easier,put me in coach I'm ready to play.
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An interesting article below regarding pilots pay in the US.
Tuesday, February 27, 2001
Pilots pay smeared in U.S. air woes outcry
By Simon Hirschfeld
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Are pilots highly trained professionals with immense
responsibility, or overpaid aerial cabbies with the airlines in their
unionized grip?
As labor battles further complicate the delay-plagued U.S. air traffic
system, some politicians have pointed to the high pay levels pilots earn as
they scrutinize the use of tactics such as refusing overtime to pressure
management.
Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott this month urged the Department of
Transportation to examine pilot wages and worker-related delays. "What do
they make? Look at those salaries," Lott told the DOT Inspector General.
Airline pilots take home pay is comparable to doctors, lawyers or corporate
executives -- most earn more than $100,000 -- with very senior pilots making
a quarter million or so. They require specialized training, and a pilot one
day may make a life-saving -- or fatal -- decision.
"One of the reasons why they are rather highly paid is that the flying
public and the airlines don't want a pretty good pilot flying a commercial
airliner -- they want a great pilot," said human resources specialist Carl
Weinberg, a principal at the Unifi Network division of
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.
Another prominent Republican senator, John McCain, blasted pilots at United
Airlines for engaging in a no-overtime campaign to "satisfy their personal
greed" that was blamed for increased delays and cancellations during
contract talks last summer.
Pilots are the most costly of airline workers, and labor is the biggest cost
for airlines. Contract negotiations between their unions and management are
often bitter.
"The fact that they've bargained for these pay levels suggests that they're
getting paid what they ought to be paid based on supply and demand,"
Weinberg said.
Last year, the contract between UAL Corp.'s United, the world's largest
airline, and its pilots ignited a new round of cost increases throughout the
industry. Several major airlines are now in negotiations with various labor
groups.
Delta Air Lines Inc., the world's No. 3 carrier, is in talks with its
pilots, some of whom have, like United pilots last summer, refused overtime
as a pressure tactic.
How much the delays and cancellations resulted from the job actions is
difficult to sort out, because of a myriad of problems ranging from limits
on airport capacity to outdated air-traffic control technology to weather.
SENIORITY LADDER
In September, McCain compared the 1998 per capital U.S. income of $20,120
with the $342,000 a year that the most senior United pilots will make by
2004. But pilots must climb a fairly rigid ladder of seniority and training
to reach those levels. Once they do so, they cannot switch over to another
airline without losing that seniority.
Pilot pay is based on the years at the airline and the type of aircraft
flown. Starting out, pilots can make less than $20,000. But by the time they
reach captain at a major airline, usually in their mid-30s, they make well
over $100,000.
A pilot usually starts at a major carrier with eight to 12 years of prior
experience, said Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., an Atlanta-based career
resource firm for pilots and other airline workers.
They typically work only 15 days a month, amounting to about 80 flight
hours, the only hours pilots are paid for. They usually spend another 80
unpaid hours on duty at airports. Add time in hotels at destination cities,
and you get 240 to 320 hours pilots spend away from home a month, Darby
said.
Pilots have always been well paid, Darby said. Pay is usually a measure of
productivity and responsibility. An airliner captain is paid based on the
size of the aircraft, an indirect reflection of the number of passengers and
cargo tonnage and the distance they are moved.
"He's got a lot going in one direction and he's responsible for that. It's a
measure of his productivity, like a ship's captain," Darby said.
A co-pilot flying a Boeing 757 or 767 aircraft with five years of experience
at the airline makes $115,392 a year at Delta now, while at United, the same
worker makes $128,712.
A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and $178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United.
Delta pilots are expected to top United pilots, who now stand with the
highest pay among passenger carriers.
Delta's recent wage offer included pay increases from 7 to 17.5 percent on
May 1, depending in aircraft type, with average raises for mainline pilots
rising to 30 percent by the end of the proposed four-year contract.
*****************************************
Tuesday, February 27, 2001
Pilots pay smeared in U.S. air woes outcry
By Simon Hirschfeld
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Are pilots highly trained professionals with immense
responsibility, or overpaid aerial cabbies with the airlines in their
unionized grip?
As labor battles further complicate the delay-plagued U.S. air traffic
system, some politicians have pointed to the high pay levels pilots earn as
they scrutinize the use of tactics such as refusing overtime to pressure
management.
Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott this month urged the Department of
Transportation to examine pilot wages and worker-related delays. "What do
they make? Look at those salaries," Lott told the DOT Inspector General.
Airline pilots take home pay is comparable to doctors, lawyers or corporate
executives -- most earn more than $100,000 -- with very senior pilots making
a quarter million or so. They require specialized training, and a pilot one
day may make a life-saving -- or fatal -- decision.
"One of the reasons why they are rather highly paid is that the flying
public and the airlines don't want a pretty good pilot flying a commercial
airliner -- they want a great pilot," said human resources specialist Carl
Weinberg, a principal at the Unifi Network division of
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.
Another prominent Republican senator, John McCain, blasted pilots at United
Airlines for engaging in a no-overtime campaign to "satisfy their personal
greed" that was blamed for increased delays and cancellations during
contract talks last summer.
Pilots are the most costly of airline workers, and labor is the biggest cost
for airlines. Contract negotiations between their unions and management are
often bitter.
"The fact that they've bargained for these pay levels suggests that they're
getting paid what they ought to be paid based on supply and demand,"
Weinberg said.
Last year, the contract between UAL Corp.'s United, the world's largest
airline, and its pilots ignited a new round of cost increases throughout the
industry. Several major airlines are now in negotiations with various labor
groups.
Delta Air Lines Inc., the world's No. 3 carrier, is in talks with its
pilots, some of whom have, like United pilots last summer, refused overtime
as a pressure tactic.
How much the delays and cancellations resulted from the job actions is
difficult to sort out, because of a myriad of problems ranging from limits
on airport capacity to outdated air-traffic control technology to weather.
SENIORITY LADDER
In September, McCain compared the 1998 per capital U.S. income of $20,120
with the $342,000 a year that the most senior United pilots will make by
2004. But pilots must climb a fairly rigid ladder of seniority and training
to reach those levels. Once they do so, they cannot switch over to another
airline without losing that seniority.
Pilot pay is based on the years at the airline and the type of aircraft
flown. Starting out, pilots can make less than $20,000. But by the time they
reach captain at a major airline, usually in their mid-30s, they make well
over $100,000.
A pilot usually starts at a major carrier with eight to 12 years of prior
experience, said Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., an Atlanta-based career
resource firm for pilots and other airline workers.
They typically work only 15 days a month, amounting to about 80 flight
hours, the only hours pilots are paid for. They usually spend another 80
unpaid hours on duty at airports. Add time in hotels at destination cities,
and you get 240 to 320 hours pilots spend away from home a month, Darby
said.
Pilots have always been well paid, Darby said. Pay is usually a measure of
productivity and responsibility. An airliner captain is paid based on the
size of the aircraft, an indirect reflection of the number of passengers and
cargo tonnage and the distance they are moved.
"He's got a lot going in one direction and he's responsible for that. It's a
measure of his productivity, like a ship's captain," Darby said.
A co-pilot flying a Boeing 757 or 767 aircraft with five years of experience
at the airline makes $115,392 a year at Delta now, while at United, the same
worker makes $128,712.
A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and $178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United.
Delta pilots are expected to top United pilots, who now stand with the
highest pay among passenger carriers.
Delta's recent wage offer included pay increases from 7 to 17.5 percent on
May 1, depending in aircraft type, with average raises for mainline pilots
rising to 30 percent by the end of the proposed four-year contract.
*****************************************
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Hot off the press.
The company is about to present the pilots with the rehashed version of the EBA without any further discussions having taken place with the AFAP/Pilots.
Doesn't sound like an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement to me.
It's more of an Enterprise Dictating Agreement !
Anyway let the games begin as the NO Votes roll in.
The company is about to present the pilots with the rehashed version of the EBA without any further discussions having taken place with the AFAP/Pilots.
Doesn't sound like an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement to me.
It's more of an Enterprise Dictating Agreement !
Anyway let the games begin as the NO Votes roll in.
Nunc est bibendum
Court action?
Be interesting to see what the VB crews could do legally if VB gets up in the court case against Sydney Airport. The legitmacy of that particular 'handshake' deal could play across to another!
Interesting time!
Interesting time!
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From Capt OverUnder in another post
posted 24th October 2002 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rehashed EBA withdrawn last night , Afap/negotiating team encouraged to reply to management next week after meetings with pilots this week!
posted 24th October 2002 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rehashed EBA withdrawn last night , Afap/negotiating team encouraged to reply to management next week after meetings with pilots this week!
