A warning message to flying instructors
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Australia
He was a grade 3 instructor of Vietnamese descent. That means he would have been recently graduated with probably around 300 hours total time of which probably around 150 hours as instructor. Estimates only
Joined: Nov 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: OGE
I like the NZ system.
Everyone is covered for medical expenses and some loss of wages when hurt in any accident.
But, no payouts or ability to “sue” anyone.
Hence, the land of adventure pastimes
Everyone is covered for medical expenses and some loss of wages when hurt in any accident.
But, no payouts or ability to “sue” anyone.
Hence, the land of adventure pastimes
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1
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From: Sydney
What bothers me in this is the legal exposure due to a professional mistake by the instructor. Yes, he was PIC and made a mistake of not preventing the outcomes and is at fault. The situation evolved in seconds and this thread discussed the obvious confusions possible, and the lapse of judgement and $hit happened. I'm not an insurance expert, but the "professional indemnity" insurance is designed to protect professionals in the limits of coverage for possible errors and lapses if judgement, isn't it? Unless it's deliberate negligence or harmful.behaviour from a professional (instructor), but it looks like it was not deliberate. Wasn't the company covered by such insurance?
Last edited by PilotAUS; 20th January 2026 at 18:40.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,156
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From: Australia/India
However, there could be other kinds of insurance cover in place for death/injury/damage caused to third parties and their property. I say "could" be because I'm not aware of any mandate for that cover in, for example, a flying school context. As far as I'm aware - happy to stand corrected - in Australia the only mandated insurance in the aviation context is carrier's liability insurance, and that's cover for a 'commercial' carriers liability to passengers, not student pilots.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Aus
Yes, he was PIC and made a mistake of not preventing the outcomes and is at fault.
The correct method should have been a verbal reminder first. That is, "xxx you are tracking left of center line", then if not corrected (but still safely in margins); "XXX you need to regain centerline tracking", if it appears it's going to get dangerous "Taking over" and physically take full control, either reject the take-off or continue if safe. From an assessment point of view, statement one, slight mark down, debrief that you had to prompt, statement two, mark further down, debrief I had to prompt twice, the situation was approaching unsafe, but corrected. Last action, failed task, I had to take over, the situation was unsafe if continued. This is also a valuable training tool, the student knows exactly where the issue occurred and either corrected or didn't, being shown what is acceptable and what is not. Pushing in controls here and there that the student most likely would not even notice is unsafe and may actually make them believe they are doing it all themselves.
So we are not talking about an accident where a basic error lead to the outcome, we are talking about an intentional action that goes against what an instructor should do. Whenever you chose to do something against company procedure, the rules or general accepted method (if it's considered safety critical) then you open yourself up to litigation. As an instructor, you must be up to date not only with rules and procedures, but also accepted method and technique.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Australia
I cannot fathom in this day and age of litigation why anyone would want to start their career as a flying instructor with the risk involved. Just signing an aircraft out on a private hire could end up being a massive court mess and career ending.
"he/she/they didn't do the brief with the correct coloured pens on the whiteboard when I did my PFL lesson. I ran it out of fuel and pranged post PPL and its the instructors fault from 5 years ago"
"he/she/they didn't do the brief with the correct coloured pens on the whiteboard when I did my PFL lesson. I ran it out of fuel and pranged post PPL and its the instructors fault from 5 years ago"
Thorough training records with the stude signing every lesson sheet as a true and correct record are essential in case you ever have to defend your actions in a court of law.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,156
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From: Australia/India
That said, the Court of Appeal noted that:
In lengthy reasons, her Honour [whose judgment was the subject of the appeal] found or otherwise explained that:
(a) neither Mr Ripper nor Mr Nguyen had been an impressive witness and so it had been difficult to ascribe much weight to the evidence of either of them;[footnote 24]
(b) it had been necessary to approach the evidence of all witnesses ‘very cautiously’ and, wherever possible, her Honour had sought to ‘corroborate what each witness said with other objective evidence’;[footnote 25]
(a) neither Mr Ripper nor Mr Nguyen had been an impressive witness and so it had been difficult to ascribe much weight to the evidence of either of them;[footnote 24]
(b) it had been necessary to approach the evidence of all witnesses ‘very cautiously’ and, wherever possible, her Honour had sought to ‘corroborate what each witness said with other objective evidence’;[footnote 25]
Joined: Dec 2023
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From: Oz
You shouldn’t need someone to double check what time you are due back, you should already know what time you have the hire booked. You shouldn’t need someone to say this route isn’t going to work, you will find that out later on when it does or doesn’t and it’s all part of building those decision making skills.
The GA Pilots I’ve seen struggle the most are those who had been kept under strict supervision throughout training. That catches up with them later as those decision making skills haven’t really been built yet.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Aus
Licenced pilots shouldn't need to be "signed out" though as they carry all the responsibilities as the PiC. Only students under supervision need to be authorised by an instructor.
Thorough training records with the stude signing every lesson sheet as a true and correct record are essential in case you ever have to defend your actions in a court of law.
Thorough training records with the stude signing every lesson sheet as a true and correct record are essential in case you ever have to defend your actions in a court of law.
Its pretty much the same as hiring a car, or anything else where a lot of things need to be agreed to before the owner lets somebody loose in their machine.
It might be a good time for anyone reading this to get to know exactly what they are signing up for each time they are "signed out", as it has very little to do with just letting you fly as PIC. As in some cases as soon as you sign that paper you are now 100% responsible for the machine, whether you are flying it, or even near it, it could be parked and you are in the hotel and what you signed up for still makes you responsible for what happens to it.
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Australia/India
It might also be a good time for the geniuses who come up with all that fine print purportedly making someone "100% responsible", in theory, to get some expert advice so as to avoid being mugged by a thing called "reality". I'm reminded of the various airports in Australia that make it a condition of use that the aircraft owner has USD 50million in public liability insurance.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Aus
Most flying school hire agreements are pretty straight forward, with no major "gotcha" pints where you lose your house. I've had to deal with many instances where the client didn't read the fine print and was angry with the resulting costs. Insurance wise if you operate the machine outside the conditions the insurance generally will negotiate understanding the average Joe can't afford a few hundred thousand in repair bills, however the negotiated amount will still be very high. I know of hirers out of pocket in excess of $20,000 (20+ years ago) for damages incurred operating to non approved airstrips, not following procedure/rules, etc... The most common one I remember is fuel rebates for wet hires, almost no one reads the part that you are only rebated at the home airport rate. So if you hire the thing in Moorabbin where the company pays $2 per ltr, and fill up middle of nowhere for $10 per ltr, you only get rebated $2 per ltr.
As for the liability, most cars and houses are covered up to $20 million or something silly these days. I've never really read what is covered though, as I assume there would be a long list of exclusions to what liability is accepted, apart from obvious deal breakers like illegal operations, being drunk/drugged, and so on.
I think asking people to carry $50 million in liability is stupid, there are situations in a car where you could sneeze, crash and cause a fire that burns down a large property worth hundreds of millions. There is no way you would be expected to cover it if it was accidental, and if intentional you'd get jail time.
As for the liability, most cars and houses are covered up to $20 million or something silly these days. I've never really read what is covered though, as I assume there would be a long list of exclusions to what liability is accepted, apart from obvious deal breakers like illegal operations, being drunk/drugged, and so on.
I think asking people to carry $50 million in liability is stupid, there are situations in a car where you could sneeze, crash and cause a fire that burns down a large property worth hundreds of millions. There is no way you would be expected to cover it if it was accidental, and if intentional you'd get jail time.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,628
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From: Aus
A lot of mess for everyone. That's one risk of hiring to unknowns. You can take deposits, debit pre-approvals, but generally not enough to cover large loss, especially airplane losses. Sell the debt to an agency and they can hound the individual for the next 20 years. Luckily I've never had to deal with that situation, however I know a good mate who is that guy with nothing to his name, was able to get fines/loans/debts he didn't pay, and just kept false addresses so the agencies never caught up with them. If you have nothing they don't put much effort into the chase. For the majority of us that have assets and don't want to be declared bankrupt it's easier to negotiate something in the middle.
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1,159
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From: Oz
Most training organisations (especially non for profit aero clubs) barely have enough spare funds to paint the walls let alone fund a legal battle with young Johnny who accidentally hit the light pole on taxi.
For some it’s likely a case of simply writing off the excess bill and moving on, or going under.
The larger sausage factories with flashy pricey equipment might have legal representation internally, so expect someone to come after you. Those cadet courses on offer at the bigger players would have some long winded clauses in those contracts, read carefully. I doubt anyone signs anything at your local Aero Club.
For some it’s likely a case of simply writing off the excess bill and moving on, or going under.
The larger sausage factories with flashy pricey equipment might have legal representation internally, so expect someone to come after you. Those cadet courses on offer at the bigger players would have some long winded clauses in those contracts, read carefully. I doubt anyone signs anything at your local Aero Club.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
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From: Australia
Wait...he had 40 hours and still not solo or able to maintain centreline??
- By 17 December 2017, Mr Ripper had completed almost 40 flight hours and was able to conduct take-offs, handle flying an aircraft and was ready for solo flight.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Brisvegas
I doubt anyone signs anything at your local Aero Club.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
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From: Australia
A licenced pilot does not need to be signed out to fly an aircraft. Being signed out at a flying school for training or private hire is simply the hirers acknowledgement that they have agreed to the terms of hire (the fine print). That is you are agreeing to numerous things in addition to complying with the rules, such as hire rates, fuel rebates, landing fees, how much you will pay in excess for damage, restrictions on use, who can fly/operate the aircraft while you have hired it and for what purpose, where you can fly it and probably other things you should have read before signing. If the aircraft is damaged during the course of your hire, your compliance with what you have signed against will determine if you are covered by insurance etc, etc, etc.... Responsibilities of the PIC has very little to do with what you are signing, other than you would most likely have to comply with air law to be covered by the agreement (insured).
Its pretty much the same as hiring a car, or anything else where a lot of things need to be agreed to before the owner lets somebody loose in their machine.
It might be a good time for anyone reading this to get to know exactly what they are signing up for each time they are "signed out", as it has very little to do with just letting you fly as PIC. As in some cases as soon as you sign that paper you are now 100% responsible for the machine, whether you are flying it, or even near it, it could be parked and you are in the hotel and what you signed up for still makes you responsible for what happens to it.
Its pretty much the same as hiring a car, or anything else where a lot of things need to be agreed to before the owner lets somebody loose in their machine.
It might be a good time for anyone reading this to get to know exactly what they are signing up for each time they are "signed out", as it has very little to do with just letting you fly as PIC. As in some cases as soon as you sign that paper you are now 100% responsible for the machine, whether you are flying it, or even near it, it could be parked and you are in the hotel and what you signed up for still makes you responsible for what happens to it.
'I have seen places including clubs, where members are in fact part owners of the club aircraft, having to get "signed out" by a instructor to be able to hire the aeroplanes. Some people even think that the signature on Part 3 of the maintenance release is "signing for" the aircraft rather than what it really is, ie saying that you have carried out the daily inspection as per the maintenance schedule in use.