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QF SH log of claims

Old 5th Sep 2023, 03:16
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Originally Posted by RealSatoshi
Slow-walking negotiations...think if I've read that somewhere - What a Joke!
Someone wrote in another thread, and I agree with the sentiment, if you don't go hard and fast, the next recession/financial crisis will come around and you'll have much less bargaining power.
Don't let this drag on and don't accept mediocrity - for the benefit of ALL.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 03:55
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Iíd want to see:

- payment for reserve,

- min daily credit with elapsed time away credit, so Iím not sitting in Darwin on a 3 day trip with a redeye finish for 9 hours pay, or getting paid 4 hrs less than a 330 crew on a Bali,

- full credits when paxing - Iím at work I should be paid full $$. If the company has me paxing because they canít build efficient patterns thatís their problem,

- some form of pay guarantee when flying is cancelled, especially day of ops, but without the ability for the company to infringe X days,

- some form of pay protection for when flying is lost next day because of delays,

- some form of duty pay credit on single day flying,

- additional $$ payment if agreeing to work on a day off. OL11 doesnít cut it any more. Not worth it.

- some COMMITMENT (not the current aspirational statement) to more efficient rosters (see MDC above) so youíre not working 18 days out of 28. This would increase the number of AV days for all so top of the PSN doesnít get smashed on their AV days because theyíre the only crew that have any.

Fix those and you can probably just about leave the hourly rate where it is because the pay bump and lifestyle improvements from those measures would be significant.

Probably dreaming, but thatís about what I told the union in my survey.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 04:03
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Originally Posted by RealSatoshi
Slow-walking negotiations...think if I've read that somewhere - What a Joke!
The 2015 EA expired in August 2018 and itís replacement didnít come into effect for 18 months.

The 2007 EA expired in August 2012 and itís replacement wasnít finalised until 30 months later.

The 2002 EA expired in August 2005 and itís replacement wasnít finalised for at least 18 months.

Not saying thatís how it should be but history tells us contract negotiations arenít a quick thing.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 04:52
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Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere
Iíd want to see:

- payment for reserve,

- min daily credit with elapsed time away credit, so Iím not sitting in Darwin on a 3 day trip with a redeye finish for 9 hours pay, or getting paid 4 hrs less than a 330 crew on a Bali,

- full credits when paxing - Iím at work I should be paid full $$. If the company has me paxing because they canít build efficient patterns thatís their problem,

- some form of pay guarantee when flying is cancelled, especially day of ops, but without the ability for the company to infringe X days,

- some form of pay protection for when flying is lost next day because of delays,

- some form of duty pay credit on single day flying,

- additional $$ payment if agreeing to work on a day off. OL11 doesnít cut it any more. Not worth it.

- some COMMITMENT (not the current aspirational statement) to more efficient rosters (see MDC above) so youíre not working 18 days out of 28. This would increase the number of AV days for all so top of the PSN doesnít get smashed on their AV days because theyíre the only crew that have any.

Fix those and you can probably just about leave the hourly rate where it is because the pay bump and lifestyle improvements from those measures would be significant.

Probably dreaming, but thatís about what I told the union in my survey.


Yep, 100%!

Youve pretty much listed my own Ďpoints that need fixingí in the SHEA. Anecdotally only, but Iím yet to hear anyone not say that the above arenít well overdue for correction.

No more mincing around the edge solutions like RDC, etc. Fix them and fix them properly.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 04:56
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Originally Posted by dr dre
The 2015 EA expired in August 2018 and itís replacement didnít come into effect for 18 months.

The 2007 EA expired in August 2012 and itís replacement wasnít finalised until 30 months later.

The 2002 EA expired in August 2005 and itís replacement wasnít finalised for at least 18 months.
Correct...that is exactly why this is the time to get things right and reset the 'incentivised' Tomorrow-is-Another-Day negotiation mantra.

Two parties arrive at the negotiation table:
  • Party one holds a pre-determined Log of Offers
  • Party two holds a pre-determined Log of Claims
  • Lock the doors and nobody leaves until an 'Agreement in Principle' is drafted - if either party is not in a position to make decisions based on what is required, then you very well have the wrong people at the table.
  • Unlock the door and call the next person in - now lock the door behind them.
  • Rinse and Repeat until the red moon rises - somewhere in the room someone will get serious.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 05:41
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere
Iíd want to see:
or else what? Whinge again about no scope clause and your 20 year upgrade date?

You know the drill:
vote yes 2nd time round
take the little brown paper bag
get 3% wow
vote up another b scale
keep doing reserves unpaid
tell yourself your duty credit is not that bad
thank aipa crew for doing their very best

YawnÖ..


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Old 5th Sep 2023, 05:50
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Or conversely go all in on a scope clause and plug the leaking bucket before spending another 20 years trying to fill it further?
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 07:17
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Whilst I'm not now, and never have been a shorthaul pilot, there is one item that, from my experience in assessing shorthaul fatigue reports, must be included in any new Agreement.

There must be an award based credit or mechanism that doesn't financially penalise and thus discourage a pilot from reporting "unfit for duty due fatigue". It would be in the best interest of both the pilot and the/any company to ensure that pilots aren't discouraged from reporting fatigued. We got close to this in about 2015 or 16 but it was rejected (apparently by someone above the CP) at the last minute.

Last edited by C441; 5th Sep 2023 at 07:42.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 13:38
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Originally Posted by C441
Whilst I'm not now, and never have been a shorthaul pilot, there is one item that, from my experience in assessing shorthaul fatigue reports, must be included in any new Agreement.

There must be an award based credit or mechanism that doesn't financially penalise and thus discourage a pilot from reporting "unfit for duty due fatigue". It would be in the best interest of both the pilot and the/any company to ensure that pilots aren't discouraged from reporting fatigued. We got close to this in about 2015 or 16 but it was rejected (apparently by someone above the CP) at the last minute.
A proper base salary that even the subsidiaries have would alleviate that.
Reliance on an hourly flight payment and operating above MGH plus allowances won't.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 14:46
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Originally Posted by Keg
Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!
Iíd hate to think that those negotiating on my behalf viewed it as a gameÖ. Or worse, a gamble.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 23:01
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Originally Posted by Keg
Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!
​​​​
Originally Posted by Jack D. Ripper
Iíd hate to think that those negotiating on my behalf viewed it as a gameÖ. Or worse, a gamble.
Metaphor - a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another.

Youíre either stirring the pot, or thick as molasses.

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Old 6th Sep 2023, 00:11
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
or else what? Whinge again about no scope clause and your 20 year upgrade date?

You know the drill:
vote yes 2nd time round
take the little brown paper bag
get 3% wow
vote up another b scale
keep doing reserves unpaid
tell yourself your duty credit is not that bad
thank aipa crew for doing their very best

YawnÖ..
Iím unsure as to the reason for your belligerence.

Someone asked what the AIPA negotiatorsí log of claims would be. I donít have that info.

I attempted to provide the forum with a list of some things that, from my experience, I would like to see improved. They seem to be pretty common gripes amongst SH crew.

If the offer doesnít meet my expectations, Iíll vote no.

If a majority of my colleagues vote yes, Iíll be bound to accept the outcome and will continue to use the provisions within the amended document to achieve what I consider an acceptable lifestyle and financial outcome.

Simple really.

Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 6th Sep 2023 at 06:36.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 13:46
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Under the proposed "same job same pay" bill soon to be introduced, QF mainline pay was rumoured to drop to the lowest in the Qantas group, not sure which in the group, maybe EFA.
Maybe not since Alan is gone now, but Albo was going to make it happen for him.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 14:02
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Originally Posted by prickly
Under the proposed "same job same pay" bill soon to be introduced, QF mainline pay was rumoured to drop to the lowest in the Qantas group, not sure which in the group, maybe EFA.
Maybe not since Alan is gone now, but Albo was going to make it happen for him.
I think youíll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. Itís not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 14:13
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer
I think youíll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. Itís not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.
So in theory, the NWK A320 guys should get paid roughly the same as the 737 guys?
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Old 10th Sep 2023, 14:22
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Originally Posted by VHOED191006
So in theory, the NWK A320 guys should get paid roughly the same as the 737 guys?
I think it means if you have two pilots working in the same job for the same company (ie both A320 Captains for the same entity for instance) and one happens to be a lower paid contractor then their pay should be level with the full time employee.

I donít think itíll affect pilots much, but may affect cabin crew as you can have multiple EAs and casual employees working on the same flight.

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Old 13th Sep 2023, 20:18
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Anyone know if thereís been any meeting to happen on this front yet ?
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 04:43
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer
I think youíll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. Itís not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.
Yes and definitely not about improving the pay of white collar workers
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 06:52
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Originally Posted by dr dre
I think it means if you have two pilots working in the same job for the same company (ie both A320 Captains for the same entity for instance) and one happens to be a lower paid contractor then their pay should be level with the full time employee.

I donít think itíll affect pilots much, but may affect cabin crew as you can have multiple EAs and casual employees working on the same flight.
​​​​​​​What about Jetconnect pilots? Guess now they are on the same AOC, they definitely fall in to the same job same pay scenarioÖ
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 07:48
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Originally Posted by chazwazza14
What about Jetconnect pilots? Guess now they are on the same AOC, they definitely fall in to the same job same pay scenarioÖ
NZ labour laws apply to NZ crew irrespective of AOC.
Not that it makes a difference in this context, but I thought they still operated under thier own AOC but with VH aircraft?
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