Pilots may fly solo over safety checks
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Pilots may fly solo over safety checks
Sat "Sydney Morning Herald"
Pilots may fly solo over safety checks
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
August 31 2002
Domestic passenger flights could take off without being checked by licensed maintenance engineers under proposed changes to air safety rules.
Instead, pilots would check their own planes for defects and make sure the aircrafts were correctly re-fuelled, as well their existing duties, including checking the tyres and looking for bird strikes.
While licensed engineers would continue to check the planes before and after a day's service - as well as if any maintenance issues arose - the standard check after every flight would be done by the pilot alone.
International standards require a licensed engineer to check every plane before flight, according to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, but the changes would mean a lower standard domestically.
A plane could fly a dozen legs in Australia between checks by a licensed engineer but if it flew to Auckland it would immediately have to be given a once-over. Currently, licensed engineers spend 15 minutes before every flight performing an external check. Meanwhile, a pilot's usual duties include preparing the cockpit and flight plans and re-calculating load weights. Pilots also do a walkaround of the aircraft but have no power to sign off on refuelling the plane.
CASA said pilots would only pick up the extra duties where they had received enough additional training.
The federal president of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, Michael O'Rance, said "the public would be horrified that the regulator and the airlines are thinking of downgrading safety".
"Australia has an enviable air safety record for good reason," he said.
There was a shortage of licensed engineers trained on the new aircraft coming onto the Australian market, according to the commercial head of Virgin Blue, David Huttner. This meant one of Virgin's newly-leased planes was not in the skies.
"We don't have enough engineers for it right now," Mr Huttner said. "Until we have enough engineers, that stays on the ground."
Mr Huttner said the new generation of planes required less maintenance but the airline was not pushing for fewer safety checks. "We have great new aircraft. They do spend less time in the shop. [But] we're going to subscribe to as many checks as CASA thinks appropriate."
A Qantas spokesman said the proposal came from CASA, not the airline.
Submissions on the proposal - contained within a raft of proposed regulatory changes - are being considered by CASA.
The authority will make a decision by the end of 2003, although it could come this year, according to a spokesman.
The technical director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association of Australia, Bill Hamilton, saidpilots had been doing the work for years in smaller centres when an engineer was unavailable, and if anything cropped up, the plane would not fly until checked.
Pilots may fly solo over safety checks
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
August 31 2002
Domestic passenger flights could take off without being checked by licensed maintenance engineers under proposed changes to air safety rules.
Instead, pilots would check their own planes for defects and make sure the aircrafts were correctly re-fuelled, as well their existing duties, including checking the tyres and looking for bird strikes.
While licensed engineers would continue to check the planes before and after a day's service - as well as if any maintenance issues arose - the standard check after every flight would be done by the pilot alone.
International standards require a licensed engineer to check every plane before flight, according to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, but the changes would mean a lower standard domestically.
A plane could fly a dozen legs in Australia between checks by a licensed engineer but if it flew to Auckland it would immediately have to be given a once-over. Currently, licensed engineers spend 15 minutes before every flight performing an external check. Meanwhile, a pilot's usual duties include preparing the cockpit and flight plans and re-calculating load weights. Pilots also do a walkaround of the aircraft but have no power to sign off on refuelling the plane.
CASA said pilots would only pick up the extra duties where they had received enough additional training.
The federal president of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, Michael O'Rance, said "the public would be horrified that the regulator and the airlines are thinking of downgrading safety".
"Australia has an enviable air safety record for good reason," he said.
There was a shortage of licensed engineers trained on the new aircraft coming onto the Australian market, according to the commercial head of Virgin Blue, David Huttner. This meant one of Virgin's newly-leased planes was not in the skies.
"We don't have enough engineers for it right now," Mr Huttner said. "Until we have enough engineers, that stays on the ground."
Mr Huttner said the new generation of planes required less maintenance but the airline was not pushing for fewer safety checks. "We have great new aircraft. They do spend less time in the shop. [But] we're going to subscribe to as many checks as CASA thinks appropriate."
A Qantas spokesman said the proposal came from CASA, not the airline.
Submissions on the proposal - contained within a raft of proposed regulatory changes - are being considered by CASA.
The authority will make a decision by the end of 2003, although it could come this year, according to a spokesman.
The technical director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association of Australia, Bill Hamilton, saidpilots had been doing the work for years in smaller centres when an engineer was unavailable, and if anything cropped up, the plane would not fly until checked.
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Typical response from Mr Hamilton, but I think he has missed the point. Yes, at this time a 737 may fly out and back to a remote location e.g. Broome, but it will be checked by a LAME on its return. Under CASA's proposal it could fly out and back as many times as it can in a day without a LAME doing a transit check on it at all. But if the same aircraft flew to AKL it will require a transit check by a LAME at both ends. Doesn't make sense to me.
CASA, don't degrade our levels of safety. We all have a responsibility to make air travel as safe as humanly possible. That is achieved by having proffessional pilots flying aircraft and LAME's doing the checks on the ground between EVERY flight, irregardless of where it is going or has been.
CASA, don't degrade our levels of safety. We all have a responsibility to make air travel as safe as humanly possible. That is achieved by having proffessional pilots flying aircraft and LAME's doing the checks on the ground between EVERY flight, irregardless of where it is going or has been.
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Me thinks this has been orchastrated by a bean counter.
This reminds me of a classic quote "Afordable safety"
Cheers
If they don't have enough Engineers why not hire more and/or put some on schools ????
--------------------------------------------------------------
Don't stress about life...........It's not permanent !
This reminds me of a classic quote "Afordable safety"
Cheers
If they don't have enough Engineers why not hire more and/or put some on schools ????
--------------------------------------------------------------
Don't stress about life...........It's not permanent !
Last edited by fruitloop; 30th Aug 2002 at 21:26.
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What size are they talking about here - don't forget aircraft such as Dash 8s (up to 50 seats) and Bae146s (up to 90 odd seats) have been operating this way for years.
They operate under exactly the same legislation as 737s etc.
Obviously this is QF and Virgin with LAME checks under their system of maintenance. What is the Impulse system - do they need transit checks?
National Jet, Southern, Eastern and Sunstate don't. They are all high capacity Class A operations.
They operate under exactly the same legislation as 737s etc.
Obviously this is QF and Virgin with LAME checks under their system of maintenance. What is the Impulse system - do they need transit checks?
National Jet, Southern, Eastern and Sunstate don't. They are all high capacity Class A operations.
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Just watched an interesting interview on Sky News with the CASA spokesperson.
He said at first that the Airlines were having trouble getting enough trained Engineers to do the work, especially in the outports, then later when pressed, said well they (the Airlines) don't want to pay for them (Engineers) at all ports.
A CASA initiative? I don't think so.
Purely just trying to save money, hopefully NOT at the expense of safety.
He said at first that the Airlines were having trouble getting enough trained Engineers to do the work, especially in the outports, then later when pressed, said well they (the Airlines) don't want to pay for them (Engineers) at all ports.
A CASA initiative? I don't think so.
Purely just trying to save money, hopefully NOT at the expense of safety.
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AAP 14:00
No risk in pilot checks: CASA
August 31, 2002
A PLAN for pilots to perform routine checks on planes currently undertaken by engineers carried no added safety risk, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) said today.
Under changes proposed for domestic airlines and passenger jets, pilots would be allowed to sign off on refuelling and carry out visual inspections during turnarounds.
Both tasks are currently undertaken by engineers.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association is opposed to the plan, saying it would create a two tier system of air safety in Australia.
But CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said there were no safety implications because pilots would receive training to carry out the extra jobs.
"We don't believe there are any safety implications, the pilots will get additional training to carry out these duties," he said.
"If there's anything wrong with the aircraft then the engineers will have to be called in.
"It's very much just a visual inspection and the refuelling they are signing off on."
Mr Gibson said most countries around the world required pilots to sign off on refuelling and visual inspections during turnarounds.
He said the reason for the change was because there were not enough engineers in Australia, especially in regional areas.
Mr Gibson said the plan would not be implemented before 2005.
AAP
No risk in pilot checks: CASA
August 31, 2002
A PLAN for pilots to perform routine checks on planes currently undertaken by engineers carried no added safety risk, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) said today.
Under changes proposed for domestic airlines and passenger jets, pilots would be allowed to sign off on refuelling and carry out visual inspections during turnarounds.
Both tasks are currently undertaken by engineers.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association is opposed to the plan, saying it would create a two tier system of air safety in Australia.
But CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said there were no safety implications because pilots would receive training to carry out the extra jobs.
"We don't believe there are any safety implications, the pilots will get additional training to carry out these duties," he said.
"If there's anything wrong with the aircraft then the engineers will have to be called in.
"It's very much just a visual inspection and the refuelling they are signing off on."
Mr Gibson said most countries around the world required pilots to sign off on refuelling and visual inspections during turnarounds.
He said the reason for the change was because there were not enough engineers in Australia, especially in regional areas.
Mr Gibson said the plan would not be implemented before 2005.
AAP
Last edited by Wirraway; 31st Aug 2002 at 04:42.
what's the difference between this and what happens now? eg - Virgin flies to a number of secondary ports with no lames anyway (darwin, coffs etc) and pilots do maintenance checks on these a/c. eg - virgin fly into darwin from brisbane nightly and pilot gets out , does check with his mini mag, jumps back in and takes off to bne.
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Puff......
The big jobbies have to have the SG/fuel uplift checked within 3% etc but thought that was only 767/747 and the like when you uplift 30, 50 or 100 tonnes - they like to make sure its in there.
No CASA requirement any more for water drains after fuelling I believe (many aircraft according to the maintenance manual had to sit for 2 hours after fuelling before waters drains could be carried out - bit hard in a 30min transit. Now anywhere from preflight to line check interval depending on system of maintenance.
The big jobbies have to have the SG/fuel uplift checked within 3% etc but thought that was only 767/747 and the like when you uplift 30, 50 or 100 tonnes - they like to make sure its in there.
No CASA requirement any more for water drains after fuelling I believe (many aircraft according to the maintenance manual had to sit for 2 hours after fuelling before waters drains could be carried out - bit hard in a 30min transit. Now anywhere from preflight to line check interval depending on system of maintenance.
Do it in GA everyday...what's the fuss about...I check it and I fly it!
If it looks like there's a problem, I get a LAME to check it.
Let's face it..the LAME quite often just signs off work that someone else has done..an AME, the refueller, the pilot.
As mentioned previously, it just comes down to beancounting.
If it looks like there's a problem, I get a LAME to check it.
Let's face it..the LAME quite often just signs off work that someone else has done..an AME, the refueller, the pilot.
As mentioned previously, it just comes down to beancounting.
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There is of course another option available to address the shortage of engineers- TRAIN SOME. Instead of leaving the youth of Australia in the dole queues ( or cleaning rooms at the Hilton as a career) or taking the easy option of importing overseas talent perhaps the industry should look beyond next week, and put something back into it. The military no longer trains sufficient numbers to filter into the civil industry.
Mr Branson- How many apprentices does Virgin blue or it's maintenance contractor train??????????? ****** all (to quote one of your recent adverts.) Instead of eroding our flight standards- Airservices is doing that with the airspace without your help, thanks very much.
How about scoring some brownie points by announcing some trainee ships instead of living off the DREAGS of Ansett..
Ahhhhhh thats better- where is that bottle of port.............
Mr Branson- How many apprentices does Virgin blue or it's maintenance contractor train??????????? ****** all (to quote one of your recent adverts.) Instead of eroding our flight standards- Airservices is doing that with the airspace without your help, thanks very much.
How about scoring some brownie points by announcing some trainee ships instead of living off the DREAGS of Ansett..
Ahhhhhh thats better- where is that bottle of port.............
Bottums Up
Maybe I'm missing something here, but all the jobbies I've flown, up to DH8 & 146, I've signed for fuel, checked that fuel remaining + fuel added is within 3% of guages, done the walk around.
To the best of my knowledge the only thing I can't do, in the vein of this thread, is sign the daily for a high capacity aircraft. From CASA's point of view the Captain of a DH8 100 or 200 can sign the daily inspection.
To the best of my knowledge the only thing I can't do, in the vein of this thread, is sign the daily for a high capacity aircraft. From CASA's point of view the Captain of a DH8 100 or 200 can sign the daily inspection.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 1st Sep 2002 at 01:21.
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I don't understand what is changing. All airlines in Aus currently have the pilots do walk arounds on at least some of their flights. Pimp Daddy, its not just "the big jobbies" that require the 3% check.
Even in QF the pilot signs the fuel docket! Checks the 3% etc.
There must be more to it????
Even in QF the pilot signs the fuel docket! Checks the 3% etc.
There must be more to it????
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I'll try to explain what is being proposed, and what the LAME's are concerned about.
Currently whenever a Qantas 737 or 767 transits through a major port a LAME carries out a Preflight or Transit check on that aircraft, checks the fuelling has been carried out correctly and then signs for the aircraft to be "Returned to service". At the same time a pilot carries out a walk around simply as a matter of airmanship. During the transit or preflight check the LAME does a thorough visual inspection of the aircraft looking for defects which could affect the safe operation of the aircraft. (e.g) Hyd leaks, lightning or bird strike evidence, fan blade damage etc.
Under the CASA proposal the airlines would not require LAMEs on the Tarmac doing these safety checks and therefore are laying the entire assumption of aircraft serviceablility upon the pilot. This proposal is only for domestic ops and would be for international ops if ICAO law allowed it. So bottom line, CASA seems to think domestic services can operate with a lower level of safety than international.
I THINK NOT.
Currently whenever a Qantas 737 or 767 transits through a major port a LAME carries out a Preflight or Transit check on that aircraft, checks the fuelling has been carried out correctly and then signs for the aircraft to be "Returned to service". At the same time a pilot carries out a walk around simply as a matter of airmanship. During the transit or preflight check the LAME does a thorough visual inspection of the aircraft looking for defects which could affect the safe operation of the aircraft. (e.g) Hyd leaks, lightning or bird strike evidence, fan blade damage etc.
Under the CASA proposal the airlines would not require LAMEs on the Tarmac doing these safety checks and therefore are laying the entire assumption of aircraft serviceablility upon the pilot. This proposal is only for domestic ops and would be for international ops if ICAO law allowed it. So bottom line, CASA seems to think domestic services can operate with a lower level of safety than international.
I THINK NOT.
on your FM dial
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Bottom line : an engineer says we need more engineers.
And that's hardly surprising.
Any short-haul aeroplane that needs an engineer to fix it after each and every sector is not an aeroplane that I would like to travel in.
And that's hardly surprising.
Any short-haul aeroplane that needs an engineer to fix it after each and every sector is not an aeroplane that I would like to travel in.
At the same time a pilot carries out a walk around simply as a matter of airmanship.
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Just as you are trained and certified to fly an aircraft, thus am I trained and certified to Inspect/overhaul/repair/replace or modify aircraft, and their many associated systems. Note that at no point in the above are either of us legislatively or ethically entitled to perform the duties of the other. There will be those that fall into the ego trap ( what was the morse ident for Bindook again ?) and those that accept that aviation is comitted successfully by teams of trained professionals, each to their own field of expertise, working to the common goal of safety for all who fly. You could use your egos here to prop the door closed on this degredation of standards or you could use it make it a walk up start for the bean counters.
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SeldomFixit,
Agree with your comments regards 'pilots flying' and
"engineers maintaining them".Am out of the game at the moment and am wondering wether to return or not.The amount of 'flac and crap' regards division between "us and them" has become unbelievable.I guess that the art of communication between 'pilots and engineers'has finally been given a 'dollar value' and some-one has to miss out !!. Hope it's not the public !
Bus Tie Breaker'
Agree entirely,also can't ever remember seeing 'tech crew'check baggage loading regards livestock,coffins,
foodstuff,chemicals and R5 materials in different lockers (happens occasionally !)
Cheers !!
Agree with your comments regards 'pilots flying' and
"engineers maintaining them".Am out of the game at the moment and am wondering wether to return or not.The amount of 'flac and crap' regards division between "us and them" has become unbelievable.I guess that the art of communication between 'pilots and engineers'has finally been given a 'dollar value' and some-one has to miss out !!. Hope it's not the public !
Bus Tie Breaker'
Agree entirely,also can't ever remember seeing 'tech crew'check baggage loading regards livestock,coffins,
foodstuff,chemicals and R5 materials in different lockers (happens occasionally !)
Cheers !!
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BTB,
Yep that's right, at Qantas.
So since when was Qantas the only operator in Australia?
What happens at Qantas doesn't mean it must be that way everywhere else.
It's in your MSM to do that, not in the regs.
Suggest maybe you re-read Pimp Daddy's post.
However the PIC is required to do a pre-flight by law.
fruitloop,
Again only in some places has it become that bad. However in a place where people make an effort to communicate, it's amazing how much happier a workplace one can have. (But it takes both sides to open up!)
Cheers!
GTG!
I'll try to explain what is being proposed, and what the LAME's are concerned about.
Currently whenever a Qantas 737 or 767 transits through a major port a LAME carries out a Preflight or Transit check on that aircraft, checks the fuelling has been carried out correctly and then signs for the aircraft to be "Returned to service". At the same time a pilot carries out a walk around simply as a matter of airmanship. During the transit or preflight check the LAME does a thorough visual inspection of the aircraft looking for defects which could affect the safe operation of the aircraft. (e.g) Hyd leaks, lightning or bird strike evidence, fan blade damage etc.
Currently whenever a Qantas 737 or 767 transits through a major port a LAME carries out a Preflight or Transit check on that aircraft, checks the fuelling has been carried out correctly and then signs for the aircraft to be "Returned to service". At the same time a pilot carries out a walk around simply as a matter of airmanship. During the transit or preflight check the LAME does a thorough visual inspection of the aircraft looking for defects which could affect the safe operation of the aircraft. (e.g) Hyd leaks, lightning or bird strike evidence, fan blade damage etc.
So since when was Qantas the only operator in Australia?
What happens at Qantas doesn't mean it must be that way everywhere else.
It's in your MSM to do that, not in the regs.
Suggest maybe you re-read Pimp Daddy's post.
However the PIC is required to do a pre-flight by law.
fruitloop,
Am out of the game at the moment and am wondering wether to return or not.The amount of 'flac and crap' regards division between "us and them" has become unbelievable.I guess that the art of communication between 'pilots and engineers'has finally been given a 'dollar value' and some-one has to miss out !!.
Cheers!
GTG!