Another Bank Runner Bites the Dust
"In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show."
Here, Here!!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!!!!!!!!!
And if there were more business people and less "wandering adventurers of no fixed percentage" maybe hourly rates would be far more realistic and far less operators going belly up, leaving staff, pilots and engineers, unpaid!
Here, Here!!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!!!!!!!!!
And if there were more business people and less "wandering adventurers of no fixed percentage" maybe hourly rates would be far more realistic and far less operators going belly up, leaving staff, pilots and engineers, unpaid!
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Elk you have hit the nail on the head. This bloke has done nothing for aviation despite his frequent and loud claims. I have never come across some one who with such a lack of regard for the people around him than this big fella. I guess if you treat people like sh#@t you will eventually step in it yourself.
Tell your story walking mate. Good luck to the unfortunates who are now out of work.
Tell your story walking mate. Good luck to the unfortunates who are now out of work.
Last edited by Douglas Mcdonnell; 25th Aug 2002 at 07:11.
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Otario,
'In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show.'
What planet are you on? Have you ever looked at the economics of running an aircraft at this end of the food chain?
If it was not for benovelent aviaition lovers, owners on a tax holiday and the like subsidising this industry, many of you guys would be out of business long ago!
The problem is more to do with industry structure, too much duplication, too many small operators who are all basically offering the same product, and hence a competitive rivalry situation that is highly destructive. Basically no-one can charge enough to even come close to a sensible business margin because someone else, even more desperate to survive, will always charge less.
Until the structural problems are fixed, more and more will bite the dust and don't be too surprised if a few engineers go with them. Let's hope it is the opportunistic ones.
'In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show.'
What planet are you on? Have you ever looked at the economics of running an aircraft at this end of the food chain?
If it was not for benovelent aviaition lovers, owners on a tax holiday and the like subsidising this industry, many of you guys would be out of business long ago!
The problem is more to do with industry structure, too much duplication, too many small operators who are all basically offering the same product, and hence a competitive rivalry situation that is highly destructive. Basically no-one can charge enough to even come close to a sensible business margin because someone else, even more desperate to survive, will always charge less.
Until the structural problems are fixed, more and more will bite the dust and don't be too surprised if a few engineers go with them. Let's hope it is the opportunistic ones.
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otaio
I'm with you mate.
Is exactly the reason why this business is on its arse.
my case rests.
And Wheeler by his own words wins the case for us.
Own goals are a stunning feature of this business.
I'm with you mate.
If it was not for benovelent aviaition lovers, owners on a tax holiday and the like subsidising this industry, many of you guys would be out of business long ago!
The problem is more to do with industry structure, too much duplication, too many small operators who are all basically offering the same product, and hence a competitive rivalry situation that is highly destructive. Basically no-one can charge enough to even come close to a sensible business margin because someone else, even more desperate to survive, will always charge less.
And Wheeler by his own words wins the case for us.
Own goals are a stunning feature of this business.
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Gaunty,
That aint no own goal - if it was not for such a rediculous competitive situation - there would be a lot less of the small underutilised operations that will never be profitable. Until this industry starts getting into the acquisition and merger business, nothing will improve and engineers, airfield owners ASA etc etc will continue to attempt to live off owners' and operators' losses. Without that, quite a few are stuffed.
Him?
That aint no own goal - if it was not for such a rediculous competitive situation - there would be a lot less of the small underutilised operations that will never be profitable. Until this industry starts getting into the acquisition and merger business, nothing will improve and engineers, airfield owners ASA etc etc will continue to attempt to live off owners' and operators' losses. Without that, quite a few are stuffed.
Him?
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The sad thing about this part of the industry is NOT the operators who are prepared to throw their money into these non-profit ventures, for whatever reason.
Having worked for several charter operators over the past decade, both big and small, who contract (or used to contract) to the freight companies I feel little sympathy for those who provide maintenance, fuel etc to those who go tits up.They knew the risk they were taking in giving these people credit in the first place and are happy to charge accordingly ! I havent seen many of the maintenance facilities or fuel franchises go broke !
The unfortunate thing is that some experienced and competent people work for these ego-maniacs and when the truth about them finally comes to light, whether it be by their demise or otherwise, those loyal long-serving employees not only are left without their financial entitlements but are also thrown into the same basket with their previous employer and viewed upon by other people in the industry in the same dim light.
But I have seen good people being branded as shonks, cowboys, etc when all they have done is worked for someone who was prepared to cross all the boundries, professional and moral, in the name of their EGO.
So all I can say is " Another one bites the dust "
I hope not too many good people suffer because of it.
What goes round comes round.........eh coco-pop
Having worked for several charter operators over the past decade, both big and small, who contract (or used to contract) to the freight companies I feel little sympathy for those who provide maintenance, fuel etc to those who go tits up.They knew the risk they were taking in giving these people credit in the first place and are happy to charge accordingly ! I havent seen many of the maintenance facilities or fuel franchises go broke !
The unfortunate thing is that some experienced and competent people work for these ego-maniacs and when the truth about them finally comes to light, whether it be by their demise or otherwise, those loyal long-serving employees not only are left without their financial entitlements but are also thrown into the same basket with their previous employer and viewed upon by other people in the industry in the same dim light.
But I have seen good people being branded as shonks, cowboys, etc when all they have done is worked for someone who was prepared to cross all the boundries, professional and moral, in the name of their EGO.
So all I can say is " Another one bites the dust "
I hope not too many good people suffer because of it.
What goes round comes round.........eh coco-pop
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ausuper most maintenance facilities and refuellers bill on a 60 days basis thus providing a line of credit by default.
I'm sure none of them ask for your sympathy but to try and blame honest private business people for not getting paid..........don't be so ridiculous!
I'm sure none of them ask for your sympathy but to try and blame honest private business people for not getting paid..........don't be so ridiculous!
Grandpa Aerotart
I have just spoken to a young mate who was working for this company...nothing to do with no margins...all to do with a beancounter walking with 180K from the 'Till'.
Chuck.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 29th Aug 2002 at 16:49.
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I've heard nothing about this $180K?? except from on here.
How could any anyone possibly get away with that sort of money? Who could possibly have the means of this sort of access to the financial side of someone else's business?
If it came from Mr T's mouth well?? This is the same guy when approached 3 months after an account was overdue said "Oh I didn't even realise!, send it through and I will pay it straight away" waiting,waiting,waiting..damn australia post again.
I think the whole demise was more about under charging for services. I mean once was told that he charges a flat rate for a jockey club, per seat..no matter if 1 goes or 5. If 1 to 3 go he runs at a loss..if 4 and above go...he's smiling, and that my friends was straight from the horses mouth!! but then does this count??
You cant run charter this way..you charge "per aircraft" be it a full load or not. One seat wouldn't even pay for the pilot surely.
However seems like they are still operating on a XHire agreement with the receivers for now until a sale for the business is found..hopefully something will come through for the present staff. Wish them well..
How could any anyone possibly get away with that sort of money? Who could possibly have the means of this sort of access to the financial side of someone else's business?
If it came from Mr T's mouth well?? This is the same guy when approached 3 months after an account was overdue said "Oh I didn't even realise!, send it through and I will pay it straight away" waiting,waiting,waiting..damn australia post again.
I think the whole demise was more about under charging for services. I mean once was told that he charges a flat rate for a jockey club, per seat..no matter if 1 goes or 5. If 1 to 3 go he runs at a loss..if 4 and above go...he's smiling, and that my friends was straight from the horses mouth!! but then does this count??
You cant run charter this way..you charge "per aircraft" be it a full load or not. One seat wouldn't even pay for the pilot surely.
However seems like they are still operating on a XHire agreement with the receivers for now until a sale for the business is found..hopefully something will come through for the present staff. Wish them well..
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Only $180K?
RAJAM,
only $180K? A rank amateur obviously. What about the guy who walked with $21m from K & S transport in Mount Gambier? Now thats a fraud.
Off to sunshine for holidays. Bye all
only $180K? A rank amateur obviously. What about the guy who walked with $21m from K & S transport in Mount Gambier? Now thats a fraud.
Off to sunshine for holidays. Bye all
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Lies, threats...
Chimbu,
It is my opinion that you are a little removed from the situation old boy. But then again, so am I. :rollseyes:
Sorry to all the pilots working (and working hard) for him, but your naievete was (and continues to be) breathtaking.
It is my opinion that you are a little removed from the situation old boy. But then again, so am I. :rollseyes:
Sorry to all the pilots working (and working hard) for him, but your naievete was (and continues to be) breathtaking.
Last edited by Elk McPherson; 30th Aug 2002 at 10:55.
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Elk Darling
Sounds like 2 - 3 still equals -1 then.
If it walks, talks and quacks like a duck then there is a very good chance it is one.
The old "accountant did me in routine" may well have some legs but where is the fraud squad.
More likely the accountant insisted on being paid first.
$350 ph and not charging for the ferries? sounds familiar and that was around 15 years ago
Did I ever send you that prospectus on the new railroad company me old mate Torres and I are getting up, they were quite succesfull in the 20's dont you know, quite a few old money fortunes made that way, thought we'd dust em off and give em another run.
We bought the carriage rights to that verge bit between the road and the fence for all of the East Coast, from a really nice chap we met in the Cairns Aero Club bar the other night. He said he was on the "inside" and could get approval to run some railway tracks there and he has a nice line in solar powered trains that would be perfect.
Said he did the strategy planning for the Democrats, very clever chap.
We're excited.
Be quick we are closing off the subscriptions at $200,000,000.
I'm fighting it but Torres insists that we have to domicile the company in somewhere called the Cook Islands, never been there myself but I'm told it's OK.
Sounds like 2 - 3 still equals -1 then.
If it walks, talks and quacks like a duck then there is a very good chance it is one.
The old "accountant did me in routine" may well have some legs but where is the fraud squad.
More likely the accountant insisted on being paid first.
$350 ph and not charging for the ferries? sounds familiar and that was around 15 years ago
Did I ever send you that prospectus on the new railroad company me old mate Torres and I are getting up, they were quite succesfull in the 20's dont you know, quite a few old money fortunes made that way, thought we'd dust em off and give em another run.
We bought the carriage rights to that verge bit between the road and the fence for all of the East Coast, from a really nice chap we met in the Cairns Aero Club bar the other night. He said he was on the "inside" and could get approval to run some railway tracks there and he has a nice line in solar powered trains that would be perfect.
Said he did the strategy planning for the Democrats, very clever chap.
We're excited.
Be quick we are closing off the subscriptions at $200,000,000.
I'm fighting it but Torres insists that we have to domicile the company in somewhere called the Cook Islands, never been there myself but I'm told it's OK.
Grandpa Aerotart
I heard about the K & S thing while in Mt Gambier a few days ago...the stupid bastard didn't have the where withall to jst steal it and dissappear into a big world with his ill gotten gains...he pinched it a little at a time and used it to feed his gambling habit...until he got caught...I mean thats just plain stupid!
Chuck.
Chuck.
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Just wondering if there is any news on whats going on with Cirrus? Are they trying to trade there way out of this mess, or is it all going to end soon. I believe they are still operating at this stage, but Maynes took one of their four bank runs of off them when all this became known. Are the pilots getting payed or are guys/girls just flying for the hours?
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AFD
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Just for the record....
Due to a few interesting telephone calls over the past few weeks and a similarity in business names;
I would like to state that Cirrus Aircraft of QLD is in no way linked to, and has never been linked to Cirrus Aviation of NSW.
I would like to state that Cirrus Aircraft of QLD is in no way linked to, and has never been linked to Cirrus Aviation of NSW.
