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Did AFAP dither with Qlink & JQ

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Did AFAP dither with Qlink & JQ

Old 27th Sep 2021, 08:47
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Did AFAP dither with Qlink & JQ

Genuine question , no big conspiracy or secret agenda or even a secret handshake or a secret wedgie
Why oh why did both Qlink & JQ take so long to get an EBA across the line pre-covid ?
Indeed it seems to take years to negotiate this things - why is it so Professor ?
Qlink have been a getting a pay freeze back dated to 2019 ?
If the AFAP/Qlink pilot negotiating team had acted promptly go a deal done pre -Covid or even "pre" us all realizing what an unmitigated disaster
Covid would be (al la QF LH) , likely could have got a 3% (or perhaps slightly more) over life of contract - 4 years is it ?
Same for JQ - didn't the agreement expire back in 2018 ? , so still on that money & will no doubt get a pay freeze
Putting both groups of pilots "around 20%" behind where they would be if that had acted pragmatically - just get a dam deal signed , get something
, but accept you won't get everything that you want
Why did this happen , pilot groups just recalcitrant & unrealistic or AFAP ineffective , combination of both ?
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Old 27th Sep 2021, 09:17
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The Jetstar agreement is not competitive. Simple as that. Roster/Lifestyle/Remuneration, the whole lot needs serious attention. Was issues also last decade, Jayne actually agreed, and worked with the Pilot Body, to fix some of the issues.

Budget Airline does not equal budget wages and conditions. Look at some other areas like the States, a Legacy and Locoís are competitive with each other. A Virgin Captain works less than me yet takes home an extra hundred grand. Iím not joking, we put payment summaries side by side.

Rex playing bottom dollar with wages, and Virgin giving haircuts is to be under no circumstances a precedent for the remaining operators to slash wages and conditions permanently. They are doing that for in Rex a) employees come last...dollars first, Virgin b) well it went broke.
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Old 27th Sep 2021, 09:35
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It's standard modus operandi for QF at EBA time:
Step 1: Delay EBA as much as possible so a significant amount of back pay is at stake
Step 2: Present a crap deal and threaten that if it's not voted up all back bay will be lost
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Old 27th Sep 2021, 10:46
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The AFAP has sold out most of its members most of the time when it comes to EBA negotiations.

Nothing new there. The proof is in the conditions that are currently in play.

Its a self serving mess and has been for a very long time.

MCD
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 03:16
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You can add EFA to this thread. EBA expired in 2018. Lowest paid jet pilots in the group by far and a union with absolutely no spine.

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Old 28th Sep 2021, 04:18
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Could have sworn there was a period of PIA in December 2019 organised by the AFAP. Not sure what else they could have done to reinforce the message to Jetstar that their pilots are unhappy with the EBA.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 05:23
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Most people I know are members purely to access the MBFÖ
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 06:16
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An important thing to remember is a union is only as strong as its members.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 06:36
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With both the QF Group and VA there has been crap EA’s, drawn out processes, multiple pilot concessions, pilots either losing their jobs, or ‘temporarily’ on furlough or working reduced hours, more concessions concessions concessions, then of course there is the outsourcing of ground operations and other functions of the airlines and the union(s) have done what exactly? Yep, SFA. Toothless tigers. Union fees are a waste of money. You are paying good money to receive nothing in return.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 07:34
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Originally Posted by Oriana View Post
An important thing to remember is a union is only as strong as its members.
What I find funny is that people are so scared to vote no and then blame the AFAP for it.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 07:54
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The AFAP had a 'cunning plan' that had all the subtlety of a 1970s waterfront dispute. A 'log of claims' that would never be met, all timed to come to a head and take PIA over Christmas. What could fail?

Times and tactics have changed. Given the industrial laws we work under where the balance of power is against organised labour, unions need to develop more sophisticated negotiation strategies that look beyond the power of 'voting no' or taking/threatening to take industrial action. The AFAP (and AIPA) negotiators failed to recognise this and got caught out when COVID hit. Some valuable lessons to learn, but most won't recognise them.

Last edited by theheadmaster; 28th Sep 2021 at 09:42.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 10:18
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I asked the leadership why given the hundreds of thousands paid in dues over the life of an agreement we donít use a professional negotiator. Was told the afap staff and the council reps are good enough
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 10:26
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People that sit back and say 'the union is crap', 'the union does nothing'. Joining a union and doing nothing more than being a member is like joining the gym and blaming the Gym because you're not ripped. If you don't like it, get involved, become a delegate, put your hand up to be a negotiator. Most EA negotiations if your not a member you can put yourself up as an independent bargaining representative, and put your money where your mouth is and try and do better than the union.

As theheadmaster points out, everything is against the labour now with industrial laws voted in by your elected representatives that totally favour big business. They don't call it the unFair Work Commission for no reason! The unions go in and get the best they can with what they have. Everyone is all mouth, then vote Yes then complain what a crap deal it is.

Paragraph you point out about the fact that even with unions - ground handling was outsourced. The union took them to court, and ruled against QF. But again the IR laws are so piss weak that even though they were wrong, they will get away with it ! Don't blame the unions, blame the laws passed, voted in by elected officials WE elected that have allowed this situation to get as far as it has. Pilots are some of the highest paid EA labour in the country, if you think pilots are getting screwed imagine what it's like for cleaners and other 'lower level' jobs out there.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 10:46
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Originally Posted by puff View Post
People that sit back and say 'the union is crap', 'the union does nothing'. Joining a union and doing nothing more than being a member is like joining the gym and blaming the Gym because you're not ripped. If you don't like it, get involved, become a delegate, put your hand up to be a negotiator. Most EA negotiations if your not a member you can put yourself up as an independent bargaining representative, and put your money where your mouth is and try and do better than the union.

As theheadmaster points out, everything is against the labour now with industrial laws voted in by your elected representatives that totally favour big business. They don't call it the unFair Work Commission for no reason! The unions go in and get the best they can with what they have. Everyone is all mouth, then vote Yes then complain what a crap deal it is.

Paragraph you point out about the fact that even with unions - ground handling was outsourced. The union took them to court, and ruled against QF. But again the IR laws are so piss weak that even though they were wrong, they will get away with it ! Don't blame the unions, blame the laws passed, voted in by elected officials WE elected that have allowed this situation to get as far as it has. Pilots are some of the highest paid EA labour in the country, if you think pilots are getting screwed imagine what it's like for cleaners and other 'lower level' jobs out there.
Well said Puff,
So many willing to do so little, and then blame the hard working Reps.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 11:34
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Well said Puff,
So many willing to do so little, and then blame the hard working Reps.
Agreed. Loudest whingers are usually those that contribute least to the process. As for the unions, we’d still be working as 14 year olds mining coal for 16 hours a day if it wasn’t for the unionised labour movement. And regarding unions vs FWC, and paraphrasing Iron Mike, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. The FWC has a tendency to do that.
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Old 28th Sep 2021, 21:06
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You only have to look at the debacle that JQ 787 pilots currently find themselves in.

All while the the " Hard working Reps" only try to look after themselves and get back to W A.

Well done AFAP. Dont kid yourself that anyone respects you or trusts your motives. I think you will find that several of you are so maligned within the group that you would genuinely be shocked.

Once again, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

Self serving arrogance at its best. Charging membership fees for no result.

Obviously, When these types and behavioural standards go unchecked, you get the current result.

MCD


Last edited by ManillaChillaDilla; 29th Sep 2021 at 01:23.
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Old 29th Sep 2021, 23:52
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The AFAP membership is no more than the shackle to the MBF for most. A new viable alternative will be welcome for significant numbers, enabling opportunity to explore different representation options.
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Old 30th Sep 2021, 02:28
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The AFAP membership is no more than the shackle to the MBF for most. A new viable alternative will be welcome for significant numbers, enabling opportunity to explore different representation options.
I beg to differ. I can’t speak to the complaints regarding the Jetstar Pilot’s Council made previously but certainly at the an airline that has recently been in administration, the efforts of the Pilot’s council and AFAP employees has been tireless and commendable. As for alternative representation, well there “was” VIPA. How did that turn out ? Not that those involved didn’t give it their best, but eventually ran into the industrial reality of Australian Aviation.
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Old 30th Sep 2021, 03:33
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It doesn't help that some members are completely blinded by a piece or two of shiney silver. Willing to give up everything for a dollar. Lifestyle changes such as better rosters, guaranteed days off, decent hotels, duty travel in J or blocked off seat next to in Y, better meals (if you get them at all), lounge access on duty travel etc, can massively effect your daily work life.
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Old 30th Sep 2021, 06:36
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Originally Posted by Tabasco James View Post
The AFAP membership is no more than the shackle to the MBF for most. A new viable alternative will be welcome for significant numbers, enabling opportunity to explore different representation options.
I had an employer send me a significant bill for a bond (which I was never under or even made aware of) as soon as I resigned. I contacted the AFAP for advice. Their "advice" was I should just pay it. I terminated my membership after that
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