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Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

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Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:52
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by umop apisdn View Post
I'll send you a PM with another tip.
Turns out your inbox is full. Hopefully that's a good thing. You'll have to send me a PM when you clean it out if you still want it.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 23:22
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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From the experiences that a lot of pilots have had through the last 18 months, the best non-aviation qualification is either security guard or warehouse and logistics. There seems to be a number who are getting some sort of cyber security qualification which I am told is a growth industry. If you really want to be a pilot just go and get your flying qualifications and worry about the uni bit later. By the time you are 30 you will be in an airline and can study part time to get the Uni qualification that might future proof your earning capacity.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 00:53
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I did the Aviation Management/Business double degree at Swinburne a fair while ago and did my flying training elsewhere. Both degrees have helped me in my career since in GA and Airlines.

Swinburne is a great university for aviation programs. A lot of the lecturers are industry professionals so aside from having "real world" experience, you can also build a network that can create opportunities when you're looking for a job. They also train all the Jetstar cadets and are part of the QFPP (as well as previously training QF cadets) so you can be fairly well assured that the Qantas group is happy with the standards of their graduates.

As with all things in life, degrees are only worth what you choose to do with them. Many of my uni cohort have not had meaningful careers in aviation, while others have been quite successful.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 06:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
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Do a degree in something that gives you a lifeboat.
Law, Finance etc.
Wouldn’t bother with an aviation degree. Too many eggs in one basket.
Do a real degree and your ATPL subjects at the same time. When you are in study mode they are no more than first year undergraduate level in science or engineering.
I did a Degree and flew on the weekend. Pretty busy couple of years but it paid off.
Bottom line ; you either love flying or you don’t.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 07:04
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TukwillaFlyboy View Post
Bottom line ; you either love flying or you donít.
This, try as best as you can to separate your passion for aviation with tertiary study. Focussing predominantly on flying (or uni) will give you a chance to maximise your growth in the domain of your choosing.

If youíre currently in high school Iíd also caution you against double degrees that will take up your most important resource (time!) as a young adult. While you can always change things up before the census date it would probably be beneficial to be conservative with your workload in first year uni, particularly if youíre keen to get flying hours concurrently.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 09:25
  #26 (permalink)  
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A variety of thoughts in this thread.

No-one can give you a magic crystal ball story tailored to your specific needs and wants - whichever way you go is for you to choose (take a gamble on, really).

However, one of the big problems is that, at your age, you don't have anything like appropriate personal experience to make a rational, considered decision so, whatever you choose remains a bit of a shot in the dark (though you, like all of us at that sort of age, considered we knew far more than we did). Particularly if no-one in your family has a tertiary or trade background, you have little chance of obtaining sound advice.

I can speak only of uni stuff as that was my path. However, don't underrate a sound trade. Many of my classmates went that route and did just fine for themselves. One close mate did that (E&I LAME) and then went on to elec engineering and a masters and has done extremely well for himself. Others screwed up badly, made a welter of things at uni, and, having nothing better to do with their time, ended up with PhDs in tech disciplines.

One of the advantages of having a couple of strings to the bow is that it gives you more options than with the "all eggs in one basket" approach. Particularly with flying as your goal, the medical is a real potential risk all through your career albeit that, at your age, one is invincible and gives little thought to any downsides to one's future - just like we all did back whenever.

One very important consideration is that you really don't want to end up in a job/career which you end up hating and then find marriage, kids, mortgages - all those time and dollar hungry things - conspire to make it very hard to opt out and start again. So try and make your first punt a good kick, as it were. Knowing a lot more now than I knew back then, I am glad that I didn't go my intended path (medicine) - I would have been driven to distraction in a few years of practice !

Another story - mine - for what little it's worth.

I completed my PPL in my final year of secondary education (I was very fortunate in that I picked up a RAAF ATC flying scholarship).

Headed off to uni to enrol in medicine. Had a coffee at the Union and, while flicking through the Handbook, came across engineering. At that stage, I had never heard of engineering - I though engineers were the guys who fixed cars at the local garage (did I mention about the problems associated with not having anyone in the extended family with a tertiary/trade background ?) Came across aero engineering - I've got a pilot's licence, thought I - bugger medicine and promptly enrolled in engineering - I still shake my head at the all of 10 minutes (more like 5 minutes) consideration I gave to a career at that point.

Started engineering and CPL in parallel (again, very lucky in that I picked up a DCA flying scholarship for the CPL). Took a year off after first year to concentrate on the CPL (had a couple of interesting jobs to support the dollar needs) and then completed the CPL in second year. Considered a double degree (eng/sci) but decided not to spend the extra year at uni (although I very nearly had enough subject credits for both by the end of fourth year).

Completed my ATPL/SCPL subjects in parallel - and, then as now, the subject difficulty was not a major problem but the time and pass mark constraints made, and continue to make, the subjects rather difficult to pass - certainly more difficult than uni exams.

Started out with an aircraft OEM in the design office and later went to a smaller airline as a tech services engineer. A bit later on, very lucky to get into Ansett (thanks, Henry) with not very many hours compared to those in my intake cohort. I have no doubt that my engineering background was material in that and that I was looked at for later useful potential. Subsequently picked up ANR (and, later, CAR) design delegations and continued to run a reasonably successful aviation design consultancy in parallel with the flying activities.

Now sort of part retired and involved with pilot theory training and operations engineering work.

Would I have changed things were I to have my time over ?

Well, in respect of this and that, I guess so, but, overall, I've had a ball and kept the wolf from the door. So I've been fortunate. I'd probably be silly enough to bin medicine, again, and sign up for aero eng, as I did back in the 60s.

Now that I've waffled on far to excess, what might be the take aways ?

First, don't skimp - there are no shortcuts unless you have a very rich, very generous daddy or you pick the right numbers in the lottery. Try and give yourself some options, considering that you will be, to a large extent, having a stab in the dark when it comes to what your likes and dislikes might be in 20 years' time.

I can only talk of my own thoughts - I have been involved in Aviation degree training - nothing wrong with those degrees overall, but they are not really marketable outside the Industry and, even then, of limited value beyond the fact that they attest to an ability to do some study and pass some exams. Whatever path you might choose needs to be marketable for some decades down the track. Be aware that, unless you can do some relevant work in parallel to the flying, the other skillset will become stale and not necessarily as useful after 10-20 years totally away from that game (unless your major was basket weaving with a minor in drinking and carousing - they will always hold their value).

If your hankering is tertiary level stuff, I would go after marketable degrees (within the constraints of your discipline preferences - there is nothing worse to me than the thought of ending up in a detested career). Degrees such as engineering, law, medicine, commerce, science (probably with some post grad work), accounting and similar, would be a starting point.

Some folks have taken this to extremes. I well recall dear old Ralph Capponi (who some of the older folk will recall with a smile on their faces). Ralph flew as an F/O with ANA (-6s, I think he said - he was a contemporary of Pontius), somehow managed to do his MB,BS along the way, qualified and practised as a GP, subsequently did electrical engineering, and ran a quite successful avionics business at Essendon for many years. A most interesting chap. Gave up the airline flying but continued to play with some nice GA toys used as avionics demonstrators. Can't recall the rego, but I flew his 685 once or twice and that was great fun.

Tertiary level stuff, though, is not the be all and end all. Nothing wrong with a good marketable trade. Trades such as plumbing, electrical, building, mechanical and similar might be worth looking at.

Main thing is to try and not put all your eggs in one basket. Especially with flying, it is one of the few careers where you are at the mercy of medical misfortune and a career can be extinguished overnight if you are unlucky enough.

So what to do right now ? Knuckle down and get the best results you can in your matriculation exams and then the world can be your oyster.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 11:14
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maggie Island View Post
If youíre currently in high school Iíd also caution you against double degrees that will take up your most important resource (time!) as a young adult. While you can always change things up before the census date it would probably be beneficial to be conservative with your workload in first year uni, particularly if youíre keen to get flying hours concurrently.
That's not how the double degree programs work (at least at Swinburne). You effectively do two thirds of two degrees, with a certain number of subjects credited toward both. Your study load is four units per semester regardless of single/double degree. 32 units/four years total for a double degree or 24 units/three years for a single. Nil additional study load during semester, you just do an extra year for an extra degree. The degrees are conferred independently as well (ie: you get two bits of paper rather than one).
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 12:04
  #28 (permalink)  
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john_tullamarine;


Wow, this is incredibly in depth thank you very much for the advice and your story! Thanks
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 05:21
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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john_tullamarine, Mr Capponi owned the Aerocommander 685 VH-BHH.

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Old 21st Jul 2021, 07:57
  #30 (permalink)  
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I had totally forgotten the rego and would have had to dig out my logbook from that period to check, so, thank you for the information. Had some incredible fun in that machine.

First jolly was a few circuits at Essendon.

Being empty with little fuel, I didn't have to go outside the airfield boundaries - poor old Ralph was a bit wide-eyed though - complained because the only time he could see the runway was on short final - I guess he had never flown either parachuting or glider towing.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 08:22
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
I think for 2020 I was paid about 6 to 7 thousand dollars per stick hour ( prior to redundancy ).
Can we assume you are talking about Hong Kong dollars or is that you were still being paid but doing one trip a month to CAN and back?
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 10:22
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Some interesting advice above
I sort of like the idea of setting up plan B first , do Nursing , Radiographer , Commerce & put a few years work experience in , or trade
then go to flying . Defence tech/trade good route , great $$/Conditions compared to civil
Then see if you can get cadetship
Fair blow hard above , claims that ATPLs are harder than "any Uni" exam - please !!
ATPLs are multi guess , theory 2 or 3 weeks & are passed by year 9 drop-outs
How does the year 9 drop out suddenly reach god like status so that he can out perform those who completed year 12 (with advanced maths/physics)
& went off to engineering school (almost always the hardest degree on campus)
Got some news for you guys ATPL aerodynamics is bubsy babytalk aerodynamics , or does actually teach you how to design , build & test an airliner (like an eng degree does)
Best off armed with the facts and reality
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 23:14
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Telfer

like John Tullamarine, I did the old ‘senior commercial’ full written style exam which was scrupulously marked by a very ‘eager’ departmental examiner…….I won’t say it was harder but it was certainly ‘different’ to the current style. Having had a fair bit of exposure to the current style over the years, if I were to do it again, I would prefer the current style….more ‘convenient’.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 23:46
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Okay the older style was harder & tougher , got it
It just seemed a bit ridiculous to suggest ATPL is in the same league as an Engineering degree (& I am talking about first year)
I read recently a former UK cadet stating the 6 month EASA ATPL is like doing a three year degree in six months
She obviously believes that , but come get real , get your hand off it - you are dealing with high school grads - you can only do so much with them first year out of HS
Back to topic
Aviation degrees way too much of a risk atm, all eggs in one basket in an industry which is devastated & nobody knows when it will recover & what the structural changes might be
IMHO I would say other degree plus a few years solid work exp , or trade/technician & work exp - consider ADF
The one exception might be a cadetship , such as Rex which articulates directly to a job
Even the QF Cadetship looks dicey atm - QF began talking about it in 2016 - took 3 years to get it going - missed the boat
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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 01:08
  #35 (permalink)  
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I don't think that anyone with any competent knowledge is suggesting that the work level and difficulty for an undergraduate degree is on a par with the ATPL. Those who might do so surely have not done both and are speaking from a position of some ignorance.

However, the typical uni degree subject examination is touched by that wonderful old feature known as the "zero shifting theorem" whereas the ATPL is a hard line examination with reasonably tight time limits (in the main) and a relatively high pass mark.

I read aero eng and had subject results ranging from pass to HD and I did the old ATPL/SCPL subjects. As well, and as required/tasked, I teach all the various licence subjects these days. I know which exams were the harder to pass on the day. Nothing much to do with technical content and all to do with examination pressure on the candidate.

Note that I don't suggest that this should change for the pilot exams as part of their purpose is to put the candidate under a bit of stress. So far as content is concerned I could put a reasoned case for raising its level of technical rigour but that is another discussion over a beer or two.

There is no aim to make engineers (or any other discipline) of pilots. As John Farley put it, the pilot needs to know the ins and outs of putting the theory into cockpit practice (although it might take some time to locate the thread in which he made that observation).
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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 01:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
How does the year 9 drop out suddenly reach god like status so that he can out perform those who completed year 12 (with advanced maths/physics)
& went off to engineering school (almost always the hardest degree on campus)
The same way your "year 9 dropout" example might get a higher IQ score. Do you think everything in life is so black and white?

Ir911611,

You'll get many different opinions, but from my experience john_tullamarine has made an excellent post. You might want to be a pilot, but do you want to live a pilot's life? Do you know what a pilot's life looks like? Be honest with yourself. If you do, that's great.

As to the state of the industry in 2025, no one knows. But it doesn't matter as much as you might think because you're in it for many booms and busts. Plenty of pilots having their bad luck later in their career as we speak, which is arguably worse. You may not be aware that aviation is seniority based. So, you literally get a number when you start at a company and have to wait to be next on the list for any change in position. Then you have to be good enough. Change companies and you start again. It's been debated and generally decided that this is the better system - but it is something to be aware of. Personally, I'd go RAAF. Best of luck, and whatever path you choose, enjoy the journey.
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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 01:35
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deja vu View Post
Can we assume you are talking about Hong Kong dollars or is that you were still being paid but doing one trip a month to CAN and back?

No. This was Australian dollars. Did 90 to 100 hours for the year. Part of the redundancy component tax free so coupled with the 15% tax in HK it was a lot of money in your pocket.

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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 03:31
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Telfer86

No need to be snarky.
I’ve done both and while university subjects might be intellectually more demanding you can sneak past with 51%.
Aviation exams are speed and accuracy with a pass mark of 80%. At least they were when I did them a million years ago.
They are not to be taken lightly.
Back in the day I knew engineering students who took several goes to pass ATPL Flight Planning.
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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 06:35
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TukwillaFlyboy View Post
Telfer86

No need to be snarky.
Iíve done both and while university subjects might be intellectually more demanding you can sneak past with 51%.
Aviation exams are speed and accuracy with a pass mark of 80%. At least they were when I did them a million years ago.
They are not to be taken lightly.
Back in the day I knew engineering students who took several goes to pass ATPL Flight Planning.

If you haven't already noticed that these days you can be an absolute moron and complete a university degree. A university degree does not define intellect what so ever! As long as you have a warped leftist/bolshevik view of the world these days you will pass no problems.
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Old 22nd Jul 2021, 08:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Not to mention that a typical university will reward you with consequential marks in an exam if your general methods are correct but your final answer doesn't add up. Spend 15-20 minutes on a flight plan, stuff up a final calculation leaving your landing weight x kg out and you've lost all 5 marks and wasted a decent amount of time in what is already a very time critical exam.

Yes, the content covered in your average ATPL exam is fairly basic, but the conditions and nature associated with some of the exams can make them quite challenging, regardless of one's education or intelligence. This is especially true considering you might be undertaking these exams whilst trying to juggle a flying job/flight training. I completed a Bachelor of Aviation and I remember one period at the pointy end where within the space of a couple months, I was trying to complete my MECIR, had 3 full days a week at uni, whilst also completing multiple ATPL exams. My workload was considerably higher during this period than it was during year 12 when I was studying 2 advanced maths, chem, physics etc and it was considerably higher than any of my friends studying engineering who seemed to still have time to party on the weekends. I had an instructor tell me at the time that if you failed some of your ATPL exams, it would be a blackmark against you when going for an interview at airline down the line. You can imagine the feeling of dread when you take an exam, hit the submit button, wait anxiously for the result to load, only to see you've failed by 1%, you then have to immediately put it to the side because you've got to get strapped in for your final flight before your IR test at 0730 the next morning in a flight that will cost a couple thousand if you muck up.

Some people definitely may have an easier road than others, perhaps that's due to their superior aptitude, or maybe it's simply due to luck and/or not having to worry about finances. But I've got enormous respect for pilots in general because you have to invest a considerable amount of time and money for a career that is full of risk and completely up and down (no pun intended). Many people still look at pilots with rose coloured glasses and see it as a cushy overpaid job, you've also got the flight simmers who think it's all a piece of cake because they know how to configure an A330 autopilot and watch it autoland whilst sitting in their chair eating ice cream.

Anyway. There's some great advice on this thread. You'll be making an important decision and you really won't know whether or not it's the right one until the future arrives with the gift of hindsight. If all you want to do is fly, you don't want to wait and you're prepared to do the mopping up later if things don't quite work out as you hoped, go ahead and do an aviation degree. The courses are not all that well run from my experience and what I've heard from others, most of the universities just want to get you in, push you through and get you out in the shortest time possible so you can free up a space for the next kid. That being said, I don't think an aviation degree is useless outside of aviation, I've found it to be a talking point in many interviews and there are recruiters who realise there are transferrable skills that you will have, you've just got to make sure you've got other things going on in your life outside aviation.

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