RPT Jet pilots - Visual approach stuff
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I have always had a bit of a THING about this visual approach stuff, especially at night!
There is a lot of opinion about it with smatterings of fact.
I have been told by different pilots that we can’t call visual at night!
Can’t report visual until we have the runway in sight!
Can’t report visual until 30nm! And so on, none of which are true.
along with have to read back "visual approach"
My understanding of the rules are, report in flight conditions as appropriate on first contact with approach. If that happens to be visual AND you desire a visual approach then call visual regardless of your distance. That may not suit some pilots, that’s fine then you don’t have to call visual.
ATC cannot issue a visual approach at night until we are within 30nm.
Once issued a visual approach we can descend --(by night) maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or appropriate step of DME/GPS arrival procedure or 500FT
Looking at Darwin DME arrival, that would mean that you could descend to 650’ in accordance with the DME arrival procedure (CAT C, 850’ CAT D), 1600’ ft is the MSA, the LSALT’s are also relatively low.
Tracking as already quoted by Claret and others previously.
All this other stuff like can’t descend below last assigned altitude until within the circling area and its ridiculous calling visual at 32 nm, where does all this stuff come from??
There is a lot of opinion about it with smatterings of fact.
I have been told by different pilots that we can’t call visual at night!
Can’t report visual until we have the runway in sight!
Can’t report visual until 30nm! And so on, none of which are true.
along with have to read back "visual approach"
My understanding of the rules are, report in flight conditions as appropriate on first contact with approach. If that happens to be visual AND you desire a visual approach then call visual regardless of your distance. That may not suit some pilots, that’s fine then you don’t have to call visual.
ATC cannot issue a visual approach at night until we are within 30nm.
Once issued a visual approach we can descend --(by night) maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or appropriate step of DME/GPS arrival procedure or 500FT
Looking at Darwin DME arrival, that would mean that you could descend to 650’ in accordance with the DME arrival procedure (CAT C, 850’ CAT D), 1600’ ft is the MSA, the LSALT’s are also relatively low.
Tracking as already quoted by Claret and others previously.
All this other stuff like can’t descend below last assigned altitude until within the circling area and its ridiculous calling visual at 32 nm, where does all this stuff come from??
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So, VSA is undocumented controller slang for a visual approach, derived from some no longer used manual technique??
(Out of curiosity, what did it originally stand for?)
Whilst talking about 11 opinions..............
If I am told to track for a 5 mile final, where do you expect me to go?
Obviously to a point on the extended centreline, but which one?
5 DME?
5 Miles from the runway threshold?
5 miles from the touchdown zone?
5 miles from the ARP?
Answers with appropriate references please.
Snooze
(Out of curiosity, what did it originally stand for?)
Whilst talking about 11 opinions..............
If I am told to track for a 5 mile final, where do you expect me to go?
Obviously to a point on the extended centreline, but which one?
5 DME?
5 Miles from the runway threshold?
5 miles from the touchdown zone?
5 miles from the ARP?
Answers with appropriate references please.
Snooze
Thread Starter
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VSA
Capt Snooze. No, VSA is not an outdated thing no longer used. It is an accepted abbreviation in MATS (I know you have most likely never seen MATS, but we do use it) and is used on flight progress strips to indicate that the aircraft has been issued a visual approach. The reference is MATS Part 10, Section 3. All towers still use strips as they are the most effective way of keeping an air picture. RAAF approach/area control units still use strips. TAAATS approach/area units have a 'stripless' system. Sorry if there was any confusion about the use of VSA. I hope your 5 mile final question was answered sufficiently by the above post. Interesting, if not anal, question.
Cheers,
NFR.
PS. Regarding the subject of the topic, I did the exact same control technique to the same aircraft type with the same operator on the same flight 2 nights afterwards. The result: A visual approach was performed and the aircraft landed. 3000ft was the lowest altitude assigned before the VSA. Hmmmm...
Cheers,
NFR.
PS. Regarding the subject of the topic, I did the exact same control technique to the same aircraft type with the same operator on the same flight 2 nights afterwards. The result: A visual approach was performed and the aircraft landed. 3000ft was the lowest altitude assigned before the VSA. Hmmmm...
Grandpa Aerotart
I'm kinda wondering why we have a two page thread about something so farking basic as a visual approach! I'm also kinda wondering how two pilots experienced enough to be in a 737 could be struggling with the concept.
Chuck.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 24th Aug 2002 at 13:46.
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NFR
Thanks re the VSA thing. The term was being somewhat freely hurled around in earlier posts. The meaning was obviously clear to the ATC contributors, but we of the feathered variety had no clear reference in a thread which was becoming increasingly dependent on definitions and interpretation for its clarity.
Re the 5 mile final. Anal, probably.
However you get that way when your track keeping efforts are questioned, particularly when coupled to a GPS. Hence the question as to what your colleagues were expecting. Incidentally, I've had almost all of those answers (just kidding about the ARP
) from certain of your colleagues at different times, which does raise other questions.
airbrake42
Thanks for that. It is of course the logical answer. However, humor me a little. Almost every section in Jepps has a page AU-3. Could you be more specific? Being anal again.
Snooze
Thanks re the VSA thing. The term was being somewhat freely hurled around in earlier posts. The meaning was obviously clear to the ATC contributors, but we of the feathered variety had no clear reference in a thread which was becoming increasingly dependent on definitions and interpretation for its clarity.
Re the 5 mile final. Anal, probably.
However you get that way when your track keeping efforts are questioned, particularly when coupled to a GPS. Hence the question as to what your colleagues were expecting. Incidentally, I've had almost all of those answers (just kidding about the ARP
) from certain of your colleagues at different times, which does raise other questions. airbrake42
Thanks for that. It is of course the logical answer. However, humor me a little. Almost every section in Jepps has a page AU-3. Could you be more specific? Being anal again.
Snooze
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Back in the late 70's had a three holer "TJ howsyerfather" call me up (Perth Tower) at Narembeen (PH097/123nm) visual, requesting a visual approach. Fog was forecast and starting to form, but he was visual with the airport (rotating beacon I assume) or city lights and wanted to push the throttle forward and get down ASAP. (In those days STARs were shiny things up in the sky.) Unfortunately could only descend him to 3000 not below DME steps until within 30nm then I think he could do a visual approach. (Rules have definitely changed since then).
He got to PRL before the fog beat him and he finished up in Meeka.
He got to PRL before the fog beat him and he finished up in Meeka.
Kaptin M,
Sorry!
Yes, the Anscabs weren't the only ones, a big QF did the same. But the CNS DME Arrival from the south should never really have existed: it really was very difficult to do onto 33 unless you had a big think about it beforehand and were a "bushpilot" ace, as obviously those ILS-to-ILS types weren't. Re Jaques, instead of timing for 1nm (I think it was), I used to time for 36sec for my groundspeed: found it was easier to use groundspeed to work out what the hell was happening and which way I was going! I'm really glad that Uncle Sam spent billions on the GPS system so we don't have to do DME homings anymore. Nowadays, all you have to try to work out is the capture region if you're trying to do a GPS NPA! Why does life have to be so difficult?
Alas, the AFAP, I remember the CNS Radar issue well: I wonder what we would do to DS and his band of merry airspace whizzes if we were all still a coherent bunch?
Anyway, "Approach, 30DME, We're Visual, request a DME Homing!".
Sorry!
Yes, the Anscabs weren't the only ones, a big QF did the same. But the CNS DME Arrival from the south should never really have existed: it really was very difficult to do onto 33 unless you had a big think about it beforehand and were a "bushpilot" ace, as obviously those ILS-to-ILS types weren't. Re Jaques, instead of timing for 1nm (I think it was), I used to time for 36sec for my groundspeed: found it was easier to use groundspeed to work out what the hell was happening and which way I was going! I'm really glad that Uncle Sam spent billions on the GPS system so we don't have to do DME homings anymore. Nowadays, all you have to try to work out is the capture region if you're trying to do a GPS NPA! Why does life have to be so difficult?
Alas, the AFAP, I remember the CNS Radar issue well: I wonder what we would do to DS and his band of merry airspace whizzes if we were all still a coherent bunch?
Anyway, "Approach, 30DME, We're Visual, request a DME Homing!".
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I cant see why people want a visual approach at night......it saves a few minutes only, it means that ATC has just offloaded any responsibilty, and now you as the pilot have to ensure that your legally following the requirements and ensuring a safe descent profile.
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Yes Kaptin M, I think one of the most satisfying moments of my career was getting on the phone, sometime in 1990, to tell Jaques that I had just done a _REAL_ DME Descent, in IMC, to Merimbula. The NDB had failed and there was a MED 1 to be picked up.
What I didn't have the heart to tell him was I backed it up using the nice, shiny radar with fantastic ground mapping that was fitted in that particular aircraft. A beautiful picture, like having an approach plate in front of you.
I think that was the kindest thing to do.....
What I didn't have the heart to tell him was I backed it up using the nice, shiny radar with fantastic ground mapping that was fitted in that particular aircraft. A beautiful picture, like having an approach plate in front of you.
I think that was the kindest thing to do.....
Grandpa Aerotart
DME Homing for real, followed by DME Approaches (Note approach not arrival you younguns) was a regular thing in PNG pre GPS...even in the F28s....something to do with all the NDBs falling over every wet season...for year after year into decades and never being fixed
They were as much a part of our 6 monthly IR renewals as NDB approaches and ILSs...and as mentioned an integral part of our day to day ops in some parts of the country.
Chuck.
They were as much a part of our 6 monthly IR renewals as NDB approaches and ILSs...and as mentioned an integral part of our day to day ops in some parts of the country.
Chuck.
